'Interpretation' Of Prophecy

armylngst said:
Again, Jesus said that no one knows except God. All we know is it is in the future. This is why it is said to be imminent. It can happen at ANY TIME, hence imminent. It is hanging there waiting to just happen.
Click to expand...
The deception within Dispensational Premillennialism is that Christ's return is NOT imminent. It can't actually happen at any time because a whole bunch of stuff has to happen first. Israel has to regain all its territory. The Jews have to build another temple. Then they have to re-establish the Levitical priesthood and the Mosaic Law, and then they have to re-institute animal sacrifices. There's a big bunch of stuff Dispensationalism teaches will have to happen before Jesus returns. Out of one set of words they preach imminence but then they teach the exact opposite position with a different set of words. If Jesus can come right this minute, then EVERYTHING in this op is wrong.

There is absolutely no way to avoid that blatant contradiction! Either all of the stuff listed in this op has to happen first, and imminence is delayed, or the op is wrong.

So..... I, once again, urge you caution defending someone else's op, especially when that person has not bothered to answer the simplest of op-relevant inquiries.


  • Dispensationalism says it teaches salvation by grace through faith and not works but its eschatology inescapably results in the opposite.
  • Dispensational Premillennialism teaches the doctrine of imminent return but its eschatology inescapaby necessitates a complete contradiction of that doctrine.
  • Dispensationalism is a new and radically different theology that is irreconcilable with core doctrines the Church has held since its inception. Either Dispensational Premillennialism is correct and 2000 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice are wrong, or 2000 years of Christian thinking, doctrine, and practice are correct, and the radically different and irreconcilable newcomer is wrong.

Can't be had both ways.




And all I would currently like is an actual direct answer to the one question I have asked. When will the events described in this op happen? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being. Delay is subterfuge. Attempts to change the topic are subterfuge. Attempts at fallacy are subterfuge.

Dispensational Premillennialists should all be concerned there exist among them people who make predictions they cannot or will not address in a discussion board. Don't post it if you're going to refuse to discuss it.
 
MTMattie said:
Matt 24:36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Click to expand...
To the trenches the hour is late and grows later by the hour .
No man knows
but the signs are very clear it is nigh indeed . Could it be at midnight
or maybe at the crowing of the cock ............
BUT WHEN that HOUR COMETH and the DOOR SHUTS
all outside shall wail . the sheep are inside and shall not see the wrath of ALL MIGHTY GOD and of the Lamb .
THEY gonna be rejoicing forever WITH THE KING WHO saved them .
 
MTMattie said:
Yes. If Jesus, himself , did not know... with what arrogance does man ask for a date?
Click to expand...
who so ever sets a date
is no one any should have heeded . yet many in times past did this .
And some even after their man missed the date twice
INVENTED what is known as INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT . another lie of course
trying to imply MR MILLER had the event right just the location wrong . NOPE , HE SET DATES
is all HE DID .
 
MTMattie said:
Matt 24:36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Click to expand...
Have you read the thread, @MTMattie?

I have already addressed Matthew 24:36. Jesus did say no one would know the day or hour but he also said the events he was describing were going to happen in "this generation," the generation of the disciples to whom he was speaking, AND he told them they would be handed over to tribulation. He told them they would see the abomination of desolation and immediately afterward they would see the events, and the "great" tribulation would follow.

I have no idea when what day or hour my car will run out of gas, but it will happen this month.
I have no idea when the local VFW is holding its car show..... but it will happen this month.
No one knows the day or the hour..... but it will come upon this generation (not "that" generation).

It is completely inappropriate to select one verse and ignore everything else Jesus said. I forgot to mention this earlier but Dispensationalism teaches a hermeneutic in which a literal reading of scripture is required. That means they are required to read "this generation" exactly as written....... but they don't do that. They change the "this" to a "that" and then say Jesus was referring to the generation that sees the signs. Jesus plainly stated the disciples to whom he was talking would see the signs. Jesus never mentioned anyone living thousands of years later. As far as Dispensational Premillennialism goes, every event listed in this opening post could occur another millennium from now and eveything written in the op will have absolutely no consequence on ANY of us in this thread.

I cannot even get a direct answer to one of the simplest questions that could ever be asked. You say this stuff is going to happen in the future. Great. When, exactly, will it happen? Next week? Next month? A year from now? A decade from now? A half-century from now? WHEN?

No one knows, according to Matthew 24:36.

That is complete dross.

Revelation 7:13-15
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the exact phrase "great tribulation" is used and one of them is about those committing adultery with the harlot. The other two explicitly state the disciples go through the great tribulation. Dispensationalism teaches it wrong. ALL the other eschatological viewpoints teach it consistent with scripture. If you sit down with your Bible today and you conscientiously and intentionally read through the book of Revelation, you will find there isn't a single verse in the entire book that explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth prior to chapter 21 and 22. Everything that happens on earth is commanded from heaven and that fact is stated repeatedly throughout the book. That means both premillennial views are incorrect! 😮 Chater 21 comes after chapter 20. The coming of Christ (in the new cityof peace) comes after the thousand years of chapter 20.

Read it yourself and read as best you can without all the baggage of your pastors' teachings preaching over your proverbial shoulder. Just read the text exactly as written and do not add anything to it (or take anything away from it). When you get done (realizing what I just said is correct) go back and re-read it again taking a line-by-line approach, critically examining every word exactly as written in its stated context(s).




Jesus did say no one would know the day or the hour, BUT he also said it would happen in this generation AND the disciples to whom he was speaking would see (most of) it. Modern futurism is selective with scripture.
 
JoshebB said:
...@Grace ambassador may be exactly like every other otherwise earnest and sincere Christian who has ever prognosticated about the end times and got it wrong, When will this happen?...
Click to expand...
Precious friend, why would I desire to be in 'that category' by answering your question and "getting it wrong"?
Would not that be sinning/displeasing God?

Amen.
 
JoshebB said:
Have you read the thread, @MTMattie?
Click to expand...

I merely repeat what Jesus said.

We are cautioned against fortune telling and to even hazard a guess is against what God declares.

Marshall Applewhite got it wrong.

I wont guess because i am told not to.

JoshebB said:
No one knows the day or the hour..... but it will come upon this generation (not "that" generation).
Click to expand...
And what do you think Jesus meant by generation. There have been many a debate over that word.

Go back into genesis ... Genesis 2:4 to be exact... and consider the 6 creation days and 1 of Sabbath rest.

That at most is 168 hours and hardly makes a generation YET look at the following Translations: they were using Generations
in Genesis 2 and did a recap(?) of what transpired in Gen 1

So you need to define the word before using it as Jesus did....

English Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

King James Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Legacy Standard Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven.

American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

English Revised Version
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

World English Bible
This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth in their being created, in the day of YHWH God’s making the earth and the heavens;

Smith's Literal Translation
These the generations of the heavens and the earth in creating them, in the day of Jehovah God's making the earth and the heavens.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
Catholic Public Domain Version
These are the generations of heaven and earth, when they were created, in the day when the Lord God made heaven and earth,

New Revised Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the heavens and the earth.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, in the day that LORD JEHOVAH God made the Heavens and Earth,

OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,
 
Grace ambassador said:
Precious friend, why would I desire to be in 'that category' by answering your question and "getting it wrong"?
Would not that be sinning/displeasing God?

Amen.
Click to expand...
I do not know why you or anyone would desire such a thing, but that is the conclusion evidenced by those who do not answer the question asked. The history of modern futurism is filled with such people. 200 years of modern futurists prognosticating about the future and not a single one of them has ever been correct. NONE. 100% fail rate. If you were such a person you would have lots of company. Yes, it is displeasing to God. That is why I expect an actual answer to the question asked,

When will this happen? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

.....and I will genuinely try to work with whatever answer is posted if the response is an actual answer to the question asked. As it stands the op asserts a bunch of future stuff without informing anyone when any of it might occur, and I have already addressed why that is important (and done so in more than one way). I hope I do not have to unnecessarily repeat myself. I hope the question asked will be answered and we can move forward with the discussion of that answer relevant to this op :cool:.


Can you do that?
 
JoshebB said:
I have already addressed Matthew 24:36. Jesus did say no one would know the day or hour but he also said the events he was describing were going to happen in "this generation," the generation of the disciples to whom he was speaking, AND he told them they would be handed over to tribulation. He told them they would see the abomination of desolation and immediately afterward they would see the events, and the "great" tribulation would follow.
Click to expand...
It appears that you are interpreting this passage through a Preterist framework.

J.
 
MTMattie said:
I merely repeat what Jesus said.
Click to expand...
No, you quote mined what Jesus said. It's deplorable practice that leads to misunderstanding, bad doctrine, and disdainful practice (like false prognostications). I repeated what Jesus said. I covered just about all that he said in the passage and did not pick just one verse to define the entire matter. I did so in a manner anyone and everyone could verify by simply opening their Bible and reading the Matthew 24 text to verify what I posted. Jesus did say no one knew the day or hour but he said that within the context of the disciples seeing the events, the disciples being handed over to tribulation, seeing the great tribulatin themselves, and Jesus explicitly stating, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Which generation? This generation. This generation, not that generation. It was not the first time Jesus had said those words that day. Just a few hours earlier he'd told the Pharisees, "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation," at the conclusion of his lambasting them for their abuses.

Matthew 21:18 all the way through to Matthew 26:5 cover one single day in the life of Jesus and the disciples. Matthew, at the behest of God's inspiration, saw fit to spend five chapters recounting a single day. There is nothing like that anywhere else in scripture. There's a reason why God had Matthew do that. When you say, "I merely repeat what Jesu said," and you ignore five chapters of exposition what you've merely done is quote mine Jesus.

Jesus entered Jerusalem. He walked in with the annual herding of the sacrificial sheep; an event that was an annual celebratory event in Judaism and Israeli culture, one that was enhanced by the coming of the Messiah. Entering the temple, he found it infested....... so he did what the Law required. He emptied it. The Law required it to be uninhabited for seven days and then re-evaluated (see Leviticus 14). Jesus then left the temple.

The next day Jesus returned to the temple and began teaching but he was interrupted by the chief priests and the elders, who questioned Jesus about his authority. Jesus corrected them and when the chief priests realized Jesus' parables were about them and their rejection of God and His anointed one, they thought to arrest Jesus! Just a little time later the Pharisees show up to test Jesus and he shows them up, too. The Sadducees show up to do the same and they, too, get put in their place. The Pharisees return to take another stab at it, but they fail again. At that point Jesus turns to the crowd in attendance and lambasts the scribes and Pharisees in the infamous "seven woes" passage. At the end of which Jesus states,

Matthew 23:31-38 (excerpted for the sake of space)
So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? ...............Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation..... Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

The law required an infested house be cleaned out and left vacant for seven days. If the infestation returned within those seven days the house was to be destroyed. The house of the Jewish leaders could not stay clean for even one day.

On the way out of the temple the disciples expressed their admiration at the majesty of the gold-clad temple and Jesus told them it was going to be destroyed. They left Jerusalem for the second time in two days and walked across the sadlle and climed the Mount of Olives where Jesus was asked when the events, he'd described earlier that day would happen, and what would be the signs of his coming. He told them they would be handed over to tribulation, they'd see and hear about a variety of events ranging from earthquakes and famines to wars. He told them they would see and hear it. He told them the exact same thing he'd told the Pharisees and scribes only a few hours earlier,"...this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." No one knows the day or hour, but it will happen in this generation, and you will see it.


That is what Jesus said.


By the end of that day the Jewish leaders were plotting to kill Jesus. All of that happened in one single day. ALL of that is the context of what Jesus said in answer to the disciples' question.

Matthew 26:1-5
When Jesus had finished all these words, He said to His disciples, "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion." Then the chief priests and the elders of the people were gathered together in the court of the high priest, named Caiaphas; and they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him. But they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise a riot might occur among the people."

Matthew then reports on Jesus in Bethany. Two days later Jesus would be dead. Three days after that he'd be resurrected and the entire creation changed forever.

You quote mined Jesus. Go back and re-read those five chapters and verify for yourself what I just posted. Then realized how much modern futurism screws with scripture and makes it say stuff it never states.
 
MTMattie said:
I merely repeat what Jesus said.

We are cautioned against fortune telling and to even hazard a guess is against what God declares.

Marshall Applewhite got it wrong.

I wont guess because i am told not to.


And what do you think Jesus meant by generation. There have been many a debate over that word.

Go back into genesis ... Genesis 2:4 to be exact... and consider the 6 creation days and 1 of Sabbath rest.

That at most is 168 hours and hardly makes a generation YET look at the following Translations: they were using Generations
in Genesis 2 and did a recap(?) of what transpired in Gen 1

So you need to define the word before using it as Jesus did....

English Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

King James Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Legacy Standard Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made earth and heaven.

American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

English Revised Version
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

World English Bible
This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth in their being created, in the day of YHWH God’s making the earth and the heavens;

Smith's Literal Translation
These the generations of the heavens and the earth in creating them, in the day of Jehovah God's making the earth and the heavens.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:
Catholic Public Domain Version
These are the generations of heaven and earth, when they were created, in the day when the Lord God made heaven and earth,

New Revised Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the heavens and the earth.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, in the day that LORD JEHOVAH God made the Heavens and Earth,

OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,
Click to expand...
Actually, it is not generation, but "age" @MTMattie and @JoshebB definitely seem to hold to a preteristic worldview.

Matthew 24:34 — "This γενεά will not pass away..."
The immediate, natural reading favors "generation" as the contemporaries of Jesus (the disciples’ lifetime).

Some translations and interpreters choose "this age" to emphasize a broader period during which these prophetic events will unfold, possibly extending beyond a single lifespan.

Scholarly observations:
BDAG (Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon) lists γενεά primarily as “generation,” but includes “age” or “epoch” as a secondary meaning depending on the context.

The contextual clues in Matthew 24 suggest a temporal and group referent—the generation alive when Jesus spoke—since the discourse repeatedly addresses "you" (the disciples).

Yet, some exegetes argue that rendering it “age” accommodates a longer timeline, potentially including the entire period of the Church or the present evil age.

Implications for interpretation:
Translating γενεά as "generation" supports a preterist understanding with fulfillment in the first century.

Translating γενεά as "age" opens the door to futurist or idealist interpretations that see Jesus referring to the entire era preceding His return.

Look it up for yourself, don't take my word for it sister. @Grace ambassador is correct, no need for this character to slander him.


J.
 
Grace ambassador said:
Guidelines for Interpreting Bible Prophecy
If we are going to properly interpret Bible prophecy, there are several things we must keep in mind.

1) There is no prophesied event that must take place before the Rapture can happen.
Click to expand...

Well now, a man-made statement of error that masquerades as prophecy.

Attention everyone:

The LORD Jesus Christ specifically said that there are events that must take place before His Return.

The LORD detailed some of the events that must take place before His 2nd Coming in Matthew chapter 24 and Revelation

The Apostle Paul and the Apostle John also wrote down some events that must take place before the 2nd Coming of Christ

The OT Prophets wrote down events that must take place before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

So who are you going to believe???
 

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