'Interpretation' Of Prophecy

[Grace ambassador]

Precious friends, please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In This Excellent Information -
Estimated Time to Read: 8 Minutes

"The vast amount of yet unfulfilled prophecy found in the Bible has to do with God’s chosen people, Israel, their
land, and Jesus Christ’s return to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. In general, this is most often referred
to as the “Second Coming of Christ.” The primary events of the Last Days as foretold in the Bible are:

• The emergence of the anti-Christ who will sign a bogus seven-year peace treaty with Israel.

• The seven-year Tribulation period.

• The invasion of Israel by the surrounding nations.

• The Battle of Armageddon.

All of these things revolve around God’s promise to restore Israel as a nation in the
Promised Land at the time of the return of her promised Messiah, The Lord Jesus Christ.

An Interruption​

Because Israel has a such a significant place in Bible prophecy, it is quite natural for those who hold to a literal
approach to Bible interpretation to see current events in Israel as the fulfillment, or at least the beginning of the
fulfillment, of Bible prophecies of the Last Days.

The problem with this is that we are living in an unprophesied period of time that pertains particularly to the
Church rather than to Israel as a nation. Failing to recognize that the current Dispensation of Grace is an
interruption of the prophetic program concerning Israel can lead to a serious misunderstanding of how and
when End Time prophecies will be fulfilled.

Emphatically, we must insist that yes, all of God’s promises to Israel as a people and a nation, will finally be
fulfilled. We also believe that ultimately God is in control of world events. His providential care in directing
the events of history insures that His plan and purpose for Israel and the nations of the world will be brought
to fruition in due time.

Because Israel is, and always will be, God’s chosen people and Jerusalem His chosen capital of the world,
we should be interested in the Jewish people and the land of Israel. After all, it is through these people and
in their land that the climax of Bible prophecy will take place. But we should not, and must not, try to force
the interpretation of Bible prophecy to fit current events.

Guidelines for Interpreting Bible Prophecy​

If we are going to properly interpret Bible prophecy, there are several things we must keep in mind.

1) There is no prophesied event that must take place before the Rapture can happen.

It is possible that some things may take place in preparation for the fulfillment of End Times prophecy, but​

there are no signs of events that will come to pass of which we can categorically say this is prophecy being​

fulfilled in our time. If we could make such a statement, then the current Dispensation of Grace would be​

part of prophecy rather than the “Mystery” that God’s Word Says it is.​

​

The Rapture is imminent, meaning that it could happen at any time. In His Wisdom the Lord has not made​

known to us when the Rapture will take place. But we can rest in the assurance that it will happen in His time,​

thus its timing will be perfect. Perhaps it will happen today!​

2) We must make a distinction between the Last Days of the Church, and the Last Days of Israel.

The “last days” spoken of by the Apostle Paul (see II Timothy 3:1-13; cf. I Timothy 4:1-3) are not the​

prophesied “last days” of Israel (see Genesis 49:1 ff; Isaiah 2:2; Daniel 2:28; 10:14; Hosea 3:4-5; Micah 4:1).​

The “last days,” or “latter times,” that Paul refers to has to do with the pitiful state of the Church in the days​

before the Rapture takes place.​

​

It is a time in which most believers “will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap ​

to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be ​

turned to fables” (see II Timothy 4:1-5).​

​

This turning from the gospel Paul preached began very early in church history and continues until this day.​

It is obvious from Paul’s second letter to Timothy that this turning away had already begun in Paul’s lifetime​

(see II Timothy 1:7-8, 13-15; 4:9-10). The facts of church history reveal that the Church has, for the most part,​

been turning away from Paul and his message of Grace ever since.​

3) We cannot predict the future based on current events.

World leaders come and go and the international scene can, and does, change very quickly. The speculations​

about current events and the End Times are endless. The Bible teachers are many who speculate on current​

events and then teach and preach their speculative conclusions as Biblical fact.​

​

The result of this kind of thing is not the edification of the hearers but confusion. When, in the course of time,​

these “conclusions” prove to be wrong, many are disillusioned and their faith in the infallibility of the Scriptures​

is shaken. I believe that this is the main reason that the error of Preterism (the doctrine that all End Times​

prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70), has gained such wide acceptance in recent years.​

4) The Bible itself is the only source we have for understanding the future.

Found in the Scriptures are many clear prophecies about Israel and the End Times. While it is true that in a​

general way the news of today indicates that the world is drifting toward the End Times, we are not to look at​

the Bible to find verses that seem to fit current events and then say “this is that.” Over the centuries many​

have done this, and they have all been wrong. In the 1930’s and 40’s, many were saying that Hitler was the​

anti-Christ and the war in Europe was the beginning of the Tribulation.​

​

After Israel became a nation in 1948, it was commonly taught, based on Matthew 24:32-34, that the Rapture​

would take place in 1988 or before. The reasoning behind this was that the “generation” that witnessed the​

beginning of Israel’s return to the Promised Land would last until Christ’s return. It was further assumed that​

a Biblical generation is forty years, thus the Rapture had to happen within forty years of Israel becoming a​

nation again.​

​

So, the Rapture had to happen during or before 1988. Of course, it didn’t happen, but many of its proponents​

were undaunted and went about looking for new “signs of the times” to prove that prophecy is being fulfilled​

before our eyes.​

5) We must make a clear distinction between the Grace Gospel and the Body of Christ and

the Kingdom Gospel and National Israel.​

If we fail to understand that God has two distinct plans for two distinct groups of people, we will surely fail to​

understand His unique plan and purpose for each of them. Israel is God’s chosen people. Their gospel of​

redemption includes the promise of their being reunified in a restored Davidic Kingdom. They will live in​

the Land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and will be the principle nation of the world. Their​

Messiah/Redeemer will rule the earth in righteousness.​

​

The doctrines of the Kingdom Gospel with Israel at its center of the plan to redeem the earth is the focus of​

most of the Bible, with the only exception being Paul’s letters (Romans – Philemon). So, Israel is the central​

subject of End Times Bible prophecy. Since the world began, all of the prophets of God spoke of the Messianic​

Kingdom, which encompasses Israel’s hope (see Acts 3:18-21; cf. Luke 1:67-75).​

​

On the other hand, the doctrines of the origin, position, walk, destiny, and rewards of the Body of Christ​

are uniquely found in the letters of the Apostle Paul whose message was exclusively given to him by​

The Lord Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12; cf. Ephesians 3:1-9).​

​

His was a “Mystery” message that was kept secret until The Lord Revealed to him this body of truth concerning​

Jesus Christ and His relationship to the Church, which is His Body. What we refer to as the Grace Gospel, is​

“The Revelation of The Mystery, Which was kept secret since the world began” (Romans 16:25). Its hope is​

not to enter God’s future earthly kingdom with Israel but to reign over the heavens in Christ’s stead.​

​

The doctrines of Israel and the Kingdom are prophetic in nature having been “preached since the world began”​

(Acts 3:21). The doctrines of the Church, which is Christ’s Body are mysterious in nature having been “kept ​

secret since the world began” (Romans 16:25)." (credit: E. Bedore)​

Amen.

 

[JoshebB]

When will this happen. Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

 

[Grace ambassador]

When will this happen. Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

Precious friend, thanks for your Important Inquiry - if you are asking about 'this':

1) For The [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ = God's Great Grace Departure To Heaven =

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ​

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Could Happen "At Any Moment".​

or, 'this'?:

2) For the [ earthly ] Nation Of Israel = Christ's Second Coming to the earth =

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ​

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 or 7 (? interpretation ) years after the above Occurs.​

Amen.

 

[JoshebB]

Precious friend, thanks for your Important Inquiry - if you are asking about 'this':

1) For The [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ = God's Great Grace Departure To Heaven =

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ​

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Could Happen "At Any Moment".​

or, 'this'?:

2) For the [ earthly ] Nation Of Israel = Christ's Second Coming to the earth =

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ​

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 or 7 (? interpretation ) years after the above Occurs.​

Amen.

Neither specifically. Let's start with the first point.


When will the anti-Christ sign a bogus seven-year peace treaty with Israel?


Again, please a specific as you feel comfortable being.

 

[Grace ambassador]

Neither specifically. Let's start with the first point.


When will the anti-Christ sign a bogus seven-year peace treaty with Israel?


Again, please a specific as you feel comfortable being.

Thanks again. My belief would be in "God's Perfect Time or Timing" - sometime after The Great Grace
Departure [ aka rapture ] of The Body of Christ and The Revealing of the man of sin, son Of Perdition to
the nation of Israel and the UNbelieving world.

Peace.

 

[JoshebB]

Thanks again. My belief would be in "God's Perfect Time or Timing" - sometime after The Great Grace
Departure [ aka rapture ] of The Body of Christ and The Revealing of the man of sin, son Of Perdition to
the nation of Israel and the UNbelieving world.

Peace.

And thank you again but that is not answering my question. However, I am still trying to ascertain when, exactly, as best as you can say, the antichrist will sign a bogus seven-year peace treaty with Israel. Next month? Next year? Sometime within the next decade? Before this century is out? When do you think this might happen?

 

[armylngst]

Neither specifically. Let's start with the first point.


When will the anti-Christ sign a bogus seven-year peace treaty with Israel?


Again, please a specific as you feel comfortable being.

Why don't you ask him? I mean President Trump has been trying to sign a peace deal in the middle east since his first term. He helped draft and get signed the Abrahamic Accords, which is a kind of covenant. Perhaps strengthening that is what Daniel was talking about? (Not the person, but the Abrahamic Accords being strengthened by anyone.) Also, one thing floated is that they want Palestine/Hamas, to put themselves to an absolute ceasefire based on time. That is, they want to see Hamas do something like a 3 year ceasefire, 5, 7, how ever many years. That is sounding more and more like what scripture could be talking about. However, it is basically people talking, not any leadership or anything seriously in the negotiations. However, Trump, for example, has used such things in making his decisions. Some believe that when he goes to the Middle East in the near future, he is going to bypass Israel and deal solely with Palestinians, and perhaps even push for a Palestinian state.

 

[JoshebB]

Why don't you ask him?

Because I am asking you (and I am not getting an answer). What should I make of someone who initiates a discussion in a discussion board but doesn't answer any questions and tries to divert the discussion away from questions he's asked (a question that a valid question, and a question that directly relate to the op)?

Why cannot you and I have this discussion? Why shy away from the answer and try to change the subject?

mean President Trump has been trying to sign a peace deal in the middle east since his first term. He helped draft and get signed the Abrahamic Accords, which is a kind of covenant..............

Yes, and the Abraham Accords are peace treaties. He didn't just try; he succeeded. And, as of today, it looks like Saudia Arabia (and possibly Syria! ) might join. It is quite remarkable (but does it have anything to do with Bible prophecy?).



Do you think scripture should be read exactly as written (given the sound use of exegetical principles)?

I noticed the op mentions the "last days". When do you think the last days began?

Do you subscribe to an eschatological position known as Dispensational Premillennialism? Do you know what that is?

 

[armylngst]

Because I am asking you (and I am not getting an answer). What should I make of someone who initiates a discussion in a discussion board but doesn't answer any questions and tries to divert the discussion away from questions he's asked (a question that a valid question, and a question that directly relate to the op)?

Actually I kind of jumped in I believe. I haven't been here in say a year I believe. (I have a life... (no I don't)) I have work, which is 12 hour shifts at night.)

Why cannot you and I have this discussion? Why shy away from the answer and try to change the subject?

We can have a discussion, perhaps... not exactly sure where you are coming from.

Yes, and the Abraham Accords are peace treaties. He didn't just try; he succeeded. And, as of today, it looks like Saudia Arabia (and possibly Syria! ) might join. It is quite remarkable (but does it have anything to do with Bible prophecy?).

That is why we watch. Who knows if it has anything to do with Bible prophecy? I'm not sure it does, other then it shows that it is quite possible there will be a fulfillment that is way more literal then we may believe.

Do you think scripture should be read exactly as written (given the sound use of exegetical principles)?

I noticed the op mentions the "last days". When do you think the last days began?

Do you subscribe to an eschatological position known as Dispensational Premillennialism? Do you know what that is?

I am a futurist, though I do not consider myself a dispensationalist. I could agree with John MacArthur when he says that he is a leaky dispensationalist. There are some things that I agree with, but I never did care about the whole Covenantal/Dispensational thing. I sort of slept through that part of class in college. I understand the basic concepts, but I do not see a reason to tie myself down to any particular view. I do agree with the distinction (at least in this present age) between the church and Israel, the nation of. I do not believe there are two programs, just two groups of people who have their own road to the consummation. Occasionally the roads cross, in that there are Jews being saved today, albeit as individuals. The final outpouring of God's grace in reconciliation with the remnant elect within the nation of Israel is still sometime in the future.

To be honest, I have actually been considering the "pre-wrath" position. Nothing solid, but it has more to do with what some Early Church Fathers believed, and some other biblical concepts, such as the 10 plagues of Egypt. It wasn't until several plagues in that God created a separation between Goshen and Egypt. I believe an Early Church Father actually alluded to the 10 plagues of Egypt when he spoke of eschatology, but that was some time ago so I don't remember enough.

 

[JoshebB]

Actually I kind of jumped in I believe. I haven't been here in say a year I believe. (I have a life... (no I don't)) I have work, which is 12 hour shifts at night.)

We can have a discussion, perhaps... not exactly sure where you are coming from.

That is why we watch. Who knows if it has anything to do with Bible prophecy? I'm not sure it does, other then it shows that it is quite possible there will be a fulfillment that is way more literal then we may believe.

I would simply like an answer to the specific question asked. The opening posts lists several events and states they will occur in the future. I would simply like to know when you think those events will happen, and I would like to know your answer to that question before proceeding in the discussion. I have several questions and I do not want to have to ask each and every question multiple times to get an answer.

Just do the best you can. But please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

I am a futurist, though I do not consider myself a dispensationalist.

We've traded posts on eschatology before, but I don't keep track of who believes what, so I genuinely appreciate you answering that question and adding the distinction between your futurist pov and the Dispensational alternatives. That was very forthcoming of you.

I could agree with John MacArthur when he says that he is a leaky dispensationalist. There are some things that I agree with, but I never did care about the whole Covenantal/Dispensational thing.

Are you aware there are, historically speaking, only two futurist positions: Historical Premillennialism and Dispensational Premillennialism.

I sort of slept through that part of class in college. I understand the basic concepts, but I do not see a reason to tie myself down to any particular view. I do agree with the distinction (at least in this present age) between the church and Israel, the nation of. I do not believe there are two programs, just two groups of people who have their own road to the consummation. Occasionally the roads cross, in that there are Jews being saved today, albeit as individuals. The final outpouring of God's grace in reconciliation with the remnant elect within the nation of Israel is still sometime in the future.

To be honest, I have actually been considering the "pre-wrath" position. Nothing solid, but it has more to do with what some Early Church Fathers believed, and some other biblical concepts, such as the 10 plagues of Egypt. It wasn't until several plagues in that God created a separation between Goshen and Egypt. I believe an Early Church Father actually alluded to the 10 plagues of Egypt when he spoke of eschatology, but that was some time ago so I don't remember enough.

Great. We can, perhaps, get to all of that but I'd like to first establish an understanding of your pov as asserted in this op before I offer any input. I'd like to know something of what you already so I'm not unnecessarily repeating already known content. Before I get to any of that, I would simply like to know when you think the events listed in this op will happen. Next year? Next five years? A decode from now? Twenty, forty, 100 years from now? Another millennium or two from now? I can work with any answer provided. I cannot work with answers not provided.

AND..... I am not a poster who will attack you for an honest "I do not know." I might ask some very germane questions about asserting future events when the time is unknown, but we'll get to that if and when it occurs. For now, if you have an idea when these events occur then just say so.

 

[MTMattie]

I don't know when. This is just an opinion .

But are you all following President Trump over the past couple of days in Saudi Arabia? I listened to him and was just waiting
for him to suggest a 7 year peace pact for that area of the world.. extending to Israel and all.

Removing sanctions from Syria?

I believe something is up and we need to keep our eyes looking up... and our ears opened.

Maranatha,

Amen, amen.........................

 

[armylngst]

I would simply like an answer to the specific question asked. The opening posts lists several events and states they will occur in the future. I would simply like to know when you think those events will happen, and I would like to know your answer to that question before proceeding in the discussion. I have several questions and I do not want to have to ask each and every question multiple times to get an answer.

So, if the opening post lists events and states they will occur in the future, is not the proper discussion to be whether they will happen in the future or not, not when? I too believe these events will happen in the future. And, that happens to be a when... in the future.

Just do the best you can. But please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

It is future. I will not, no matter how hard you push, cross Jesus who said no one can know except the Father. Not even Jesus could answer your question.

We've traded posts on eschatology before, but I don't keep track of who believes what, so I genuinely appreciate you answering that question and adding the distinction between your futurist pov and the Dispensational alternatives. That was very forthcoming of you.

I lean dispensational, but I am not. What I do take from them is that I believe there is a greater distinction between the church as a group, and Israel as a group. That Israel, as a whole group (not speaking of those of Israel who get saved as individuals), has a part in God's plan of redemption/reconciliation, simply because they are the nation God chose for Himself. That distinction remains in God's plan of reconciliation. He will personally reconcile with Israel at the end of the age, before the millennial kingdom. He will reconcile with those who rejected Him that the Gentiles might be saved. And, in keeping with my Calvinist leanings (I am not a calvinist), it is the elect remnant that remains in Israel that are saved in the end. Not all Israel. (Zechariah puts it as 2/3rds of the populace will perish, while 1/3rd will be purged and saved.

Are you aware there are, historically speaking, only two futurist positions: Historical Premillennialism and Dispensational Premillennialism.

There is historical and dispensational premillennialism, however, from my understanding, historical premillennialism is not futurist. They believed Jesus was returning back in the 4th/5th centuries. During/shortly after the time of Augustine. Irenaues (or was it Ignatius) speaks to this belief. They linked Jesus second coming to creation. As the world was created in 6 days, Jesus would return 6000 years after the end of creation. The 7th day/7th set of 1000 years is the millennial kingdom. Someone came up with a chronology that had the 6000th year during the 500s AD I believe. (Or late 400s). St Augustine used to agree with this, until the chiliasts and he had a falling out over parties the chiliasts were throwing (lavish) because they believed Jesus was about to return. St. Augustine was all about austerity, so he broke off with them.

Great. We can, perhaps, get to all of that but I'd like to first establish an understanding of your pov as asserted in this op before I offer any input. I'd like to know something of what you already so I'm not unnecessarily repeating already known content. Before I get to any of that, I would simply like to know when you think the events listed in this op will happen. Next year? Next five years? A decode from now? Twenty, forty, 100 years from now? Another millennium or two from now? I can work with any answer provided. I cannot work with answers not provided.

I believe it is future. However, it isn't that simple. Again, why you stand against Jesus Himself in believe that anyone, much less me, can/does know is beyond me. I will say that given what is happening now in the world, it isn't simply a belief that it is coming due, but it actually feels like it is soon. It feels like I recognize signs, which means it is going to be soon. However, I can't know, and don't know. Even with the fig tree parable, it is that they can know that summer is near, not when summer will be.

Consider the strengthening of a covenant. We have the Abrahamic Accords, where an accord is basically a synonym of covenant. What we have in Daniel may just be a terminology thing. Then, when one looks through historical tradition of eschatology, we need a rebuilt temple. If you research the news and history, the idea of a rebuilt temple is actually becoming more possible with each passing day. Consider scripture states that we will only live on Earth, and only Earth will be our habitation. Consider that we are getting ready to send people to habitat/colonize Mars and perhaps even the Moon. Obviously something is going to happen to make such a thing impossible, if scripture is true. Either the world ends, we blow ourselves to the stone age, or we go broke, and can't afford to do it. The world ending could include Jesus return. [This is more philosophically based, existential view, with eschatology tacked on the end.] If I were to make a guess, I would be surprised if there was more than a century left. God is good at surprising us.

AND..... I am not a poster who will attack you for an honest "I do not know." I might ask some very germane questions about asserting future events when the time is unknown, but we'll get to that if and when it occurs. For now, if you have an idea when these events occur then just say so.

Someday.

 

[JoshebB]

So, if the opening post lists events and states they will occur in the future, is not the proper discussion to be whether they will happen in the future or not, not when?

Maybe. The op asserts certain events are still in the future and that these supposedly future events will occur in a given way but that is not the historical, mainstream, orthodox, or majority view in Christendom. Therefore, the "proper" discussion might be whether or not the op has any veracity at all.

I too believe these events will happen in the future. And, that happens to be a when... in the future. It is the future.

When in the future?

To say something in the future will happen in the future is redundant, and answering questions that way begs the question. God does not teach His people to be deliberately irrational.

I will not, no matter how hard you push, cross Jesus...

Red herring. No one has remotely suggested anyone "cross Jesus." However, the fact is you did just cross Jesus because Jesus taught God's people to be honest and forthcoming, to let their yes be yes and not to hide behind logical fallacies in an attempt to hide or deceive. Paul put it particularly poignantly when he wrote,

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

The op posted a set of assertions. I asked one, single, simple question that is directly related to what is posted. It is a valid question. Rather than receiving an actual answer there is nothing meaningful, nothing that furthers the discission op-relevantly. You drop in and attempt to change the subject to crossing Jesus, implying I am the problem rather than answering the question asked. I do hope you're not trying Proverbs 26:17 because my question is directed solely to @Grace ambassador. I do not expect anyone but Grace to speak for Grace and trust Grace entirely to be able to speak for him/herself without anyone else's help.

who said no one can know except the Father. Not even Jesus could answer your question.

That is incorrect.

Go back and re-read Matthew 24. Jesus stated two temporal qualifiers, not one, and a host of audience affiliation. What are they? List them because they help to answer the question asked if we all stand firmly on what is actually, explicitly stated exactly as written.

I lean dispensational, but I am not.

Do you lean human but aren't human? Maybe lean pregnant but not pregnant?

What I do take from them is that I believe there is a greater distinction between the church as a group, and Israel as a group.....

That makes you a Dispensationalist. That's not a "lean" thing. The two people's viewpoint is a bona fide core concept in Dispensationalism AND it is a position no other theology in the entire history of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice holds. Just own it.

There is historical and dispensational premillennialism, however, from my understanding, historical premillennialism is not futurist.

You need to read more.

Historical Premillennialism is futurist, but much differently futurist than the Dispensational alternative. Technically all the main eschatologies are futurist in some way or another simply because they all teach a future return of Christ. There are five main eschatological points of view (in their order of historical occurrence):

• Historical Premillennialism (which was simply called "premillennialism" before th Dispensationalists showed up)
• Amillennialism
• Postmillennialism
• Idealism
• Dispensational Premillennialism

Dispensational Premillennialism is the newcomer to the eschatological scene. Dispensational Premillennialism asserts and teaches things no one in the entirety of Christendom ever held or taught prior to the 19th century. The first four eschatologies have a lot in common and ALL of them agree Dispensationalism is not very scriptural. ALL of the first four eschatologies teach Israel is irrelevant to Christian eschatology!!! Only Dispensationalism teaches the nation of Israel is relevant. Only Dispensationalism teaches God has two peoples, two completely separate peoples with two different purposes. No one else teaches that. Dispensationalism alone separates the rapture from Christ's second coming. No one else teaches that. The list of difference between Dispensationalism and all other eschatologies is long. This op separates the rapture from the Second Coming. That makes this op Dispensationally Premillennial. If you are not all in with DPism then don't be so quick to defend an op with which you do not wholly agree.

More importantly, more specifically germane to this opening post is the fact that ONLY Dispensational Premillennialism has teachers who constantly make prognostications that never happen. Only Dispensationalism teaches its teachers to do that sort of thing. Only Dispensationalism ignores the false teachers when their prognostications never happen. Only Dispensationalism never holds those false teachers accountable. Only Dispensationalism teaches its adherents to tolerate all of that failure. Only Dispensationalists avoid the question, "When, exactly, will what you said occur?" and they avoid answering that question like the plague. They hide behind selected verses like, Matthew 24:36, ignoring all else that Jesus said in the larger passage...... all just so they don't have to answer the question.

When will this happen?. Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.
.

They believed Jesus was returning back in the 4th/5th centuries. During/shortly after the time of Augustine. Irenaues (or was it Ignatius) speaks to this belief.............

Yes, there have been Christians teaching Jesus will return at a given point in time throughout the history of Christianity. ALL of them have been wrong. This op may also be wrong. This op may be wrong so it is completely understandable why its author would not want to answer the question asked. @Grace ambassador may be exactly like every other otherwise earnest and sincere Christian who has ever prognosticated about the end times and got it wrong, but I am not trying to explore the history of eschatology. I am currently just trying to get a simple, honest, direct, unqualified answer to the question asked.


When, as specifically as you feel comfortable saying, do you think the events listed in this op will occur?

.

I believe it is future. However, it isn't that simple.

No, it is not that simple. People have been making false predictions since Jesus first spoke of his return and in the last two centuries the most egregious false teachers have occurred in Dispensationalism. Dispensational Premillennialists eclipse all other theologies both infrequency and severity and you might be one of them.

But I cannot determine that because I cannot get an answer to one single, solitary, simple op-relevant question:

When will this happen? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

.

Again, why you stand against Jesus Himself...

Stow that hogwash. I am not standing against Christ Himself.

And you, instead of answering the question asked and moving the discussion of your op forward in a topical manner, in a polite and respectful manner (or joining me seeking an answer from the op), just attempted an onus shifting ad hominem. That is another device Dispensationalists commonly employ when asked to address the specifics of their teachings. When the question asked is answered..... there will be no need whatsoever to mention ANYONE. The reply, "In the future" is not an answer. It begs the question.

Q: When in the future will the future events happen?
A: In the future.

The future events will happen in the future's future. Surely you can see the inanity in that nonsense.

Consider the strengthening of a covenant.......

Nope. Not going anywhere near that until I read an answer to the question asked.

I will not be responding to bait. I will not entertain attempted digressions, irrelevancies, red herrings, ad hominem, shifting onuses, or any of the other commonly employed machinations used to avoid answering what is otherwise a very simple and valid question. This is a discussion board, and it is completely valid to ask you exactly when in the future the things posted about the future will occur. It would be a valid question if no one had ever made a false prognostication in the entire history of Christendom, but it is definitely a valid question given the chronic history of abuse found in Christian history.... for which Dispensationalist Premillennialists are the current leading practitioners.

When will this happen? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.


If and when @Grace ambassador posts an actual answer to that question I will take up that answer (whatever it might be) and discuss it with him/her. There is no excuse for not answering and no reason not to do so. This is a discussion board.

 

[armylngst]

Maybe. The op asserts certain events are still in the future and that these supposedly future events will occur in a given way but that is not the historical, mainstream, orthodox, or majority view in Christendom. Therefore, the "proper" discussion might be whether or not the op has any veracity at all.

When in the future?

Again, Jesus said that no one knows except God. All we know is it is in the future. This is why it is said to be imminent. It can happen at ANY TIME, hence imminent. It is hanging there waiting to just happen.

To say something in the future will happen in the future is redundant, and answering questions that way begs the question. God does not teach His people to be deliberately irrational.

If that answer is redundant, then it makes the question irrational. The premise to the argument is that Jesus is coming again in the future. Premise 2: Only God the Father knows when. What follows from these premise is that it will happen in the future, and only God the Father knows when.

Red herring. No one has remotely suggested anyone "cross Jesus." However, the fact is you did just cross Jesus because Jesus taught God's people to be honest and forthcoming, to let their yes be yes and not to hide behind logical fallacies in an attempt to hide or deceive. Paul put it particularly poignantly when he wrote,

You are asking a question that according to Jesus, not even HE can answer. To force someone to answer and say that they can answer, is to cross Jesus. I have told you already, it is future, and only the Father knows when. Stick to your domain. What did Jesus tell the disciples when they attempted to enter into God's domain? It is not for you to know the times and seasons established by the Father's authority.

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

The op posted a set of assertions. I asked one, single, simple question that is directly related to what is posted. It is a valid question. Rather than receiving an actual answer there is nothing meaningful, nothing that furthers the discission op-relevantly. You drop in and attempt to change the subject to crossing Jesus, implying I am the problem rather than answering the question asked. I do hope you're not trying Proverbs 26:17 because my question is directed solely to @Grace ambassador. I do not expect anyone but Grace to speak for Grace and trust Grace entirely to be able to speak for him/herself without anyone else's help.

What does Tius have to do with any of this. Your question has been answered, and has been shown to tread upon ground that Jesus said was not for us. I did not come right out and say that, but it is now presented clearly above. Jesus does not know, and it is not for us to know the Father's business/actions, when Jesus clearly tells us.

That is incorrect.

Go back and re-read Matthew 24. Jesus stated two temporal qualifiers, not one, and a host of audience affiliation. What are they? List them because they help to answer the question asked if we all stand firmly on what is actually, explicitly stated exactly as written.

What did Jesus say when it came to the consummation. He had no signs.
"“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. "

In other words, life will be going on normally, as it did right up to the flood in Noah's day, and then, it will all just... stop. It will be over.

Do you lean human but aren't human? Maybe lean pregnant but not pregnant?

That makes you a Dispensationalist. That's not a "lean" thing. The two people's viewpoint is a bona fide core concept in Dispensationalism AND it is a position no other theology in the entire history of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice holds. Just own it.

You have always had this problem. Having to look at Christianity as "I am of Apollos", or "I am of Paul", or "I am of Peter". Labels are artificial. Christ is eternal. I choose Christ. I do not choose calvinism, but my beliefs line up with Calvinism, more or less. I do not choose dispensationalism, except when I am suffering from insomnia. (That and covenant theology knocks me right out.) I am futurist, however, I am apparently leaning more "pre-wrath", which is apparently a very minority view.

You need to read more.

I read over what you wrote, and apparently, you need to read more on chilianism and the chiliasts. Also Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Papias, etc.

As for dispensationalism, it is a recent creation, but unlike, say preterism, it actually has a historical tradition in the church. And there is a church father (early) who claims that the premillennial belief (historic) was orthodox. He said he wasn't aware of anyone at the time who didn't hold to it. There is a lot to history that I didn't know until I looked into it. It is deep. There are some things that I do not know, however, the history of premillennialism is not something I am ignorant of. For instance, if you say that the rapture is a recent invention with Darby, that proves how ignorant you are of church history and eschatology. One of the earliest mentions of the rapture is back as early as the fifth century.

 

[JoshebB]

Again, Jesus said that no one knows except God.

Yes, he did say that.

That is not all he said. He also said the disciples (the ones to whom he was speaking that day) would see it. He also said it would happen in "this generation," the generation of those to whom he was speaking. The "this generation" is conjugated in the near demonstrative so it CANNOT be made to be about the far, far distant future two millennia later.

It is, therefore, completely inappropriate to select 36 and only verse 36, ignore everything else Jesus said that day and hide behind a selectively singled-out verse. Its bad exegesis. It is something only DP teaches. The practice of selectively using individual verses and ignoring everything else is a reason NOT to lean Dispensationally premillennial!

All we know is it is in the future.

No, we do not. Dispensationalists believe the things listed in the opening post are in the future. They do not know it. Dispensationalists believe these things in direct contradiction to what everyone else in Christendom has believed since Jesus first taught these things. No one but Dispensational Premillennialists separate the rapture from the Second Coming. No one. Dispies do not know it; they believe it.

And when they are asked about it, they hide behind selectively used verses and attack the inquirer with accusations s/he is crossing Jesus.

This is why it is said to be imminent. It can happen at ANY TIME, hence imminent. It is hanging there waiting to just happen.

Well, that is just another example of Dispensational inanity but I will address that in a separate post so as not to confuse or distract from the fact all I am asking is one, single, solitary question:

When will the events described in this op occur? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Why don't you ask him? I mean President Trump has been trying to sign a peace deal in the middle east since his first term. He helped draft and get signed the Abrahamic Accords, which is a kind of covenant. Perhaps strengthening that is what Daniel was talking about? (Not the person, but the Abrahamic Accords being strengthened by anyone.) Also, one thing floated is that they want Palestine/Hamas, to put themselves to an absolute ceasefire based on time. That is, they want to see Hamas do something like a 3 year ceasefire, 5, 7, how ever many years. That is sounding more and more like what scripture could be talking about. However, it is basically people talking, not any leadership or anything seriously in the negotiations. However, Trump, for example, has used such things in making his decisions. Some believe that when he goes to the Middle East in the near future, he is going to bypass Israel and deal solely with Palestinians, and perhaps even push for a Palestinian state.

What i type to you i type to all .
The abraham peace accords interfaith interreligious
IS that which is of anti christ and many anti christs are at work .
They are all over the realm known as christendome . They sit in high places
and shall merge this people and all false religoins right to THE LIE .
And for this cause GOD shall send them strong delusion to beleive a lie . and all will be damned .
We better watch out . cause its co workers are all over both the liberal and conservative realm .
They rule over the unholy see and many of its now prostestant daughters .
TRUMP did not invent this , THE PROGRESSIVE liberal led vatican did .
BUT HE IS EVERY BIT a co worker to its lie of anti christ .
FOLKS better flee politics and start TRUSTING ONLY IN GOD . there are many
very many decievers who now abound and they are very busy doing all to unify all under a lie .

 

[JoshebB]

@armylngst,
.
Here's a chart taken from the Rose Publishing Guide to End Times, written by a Dispensational remillennialist (so no one thinks I have used an antagonistic source).

.
You will note EVERYONE believes Jesus will return. Everyone but Dispensational Premillennialism teaches the rapture and Second Coming as a co-occurring, not-separated event. Everyone but Dispensational Premillennialism teaches Christians experience the tribulation. Everyone but Dispensationalists holds the modern state of Israel is irrelevant to the prophecies of Revelation. Those are only a few of the differences. Only DPism teaches (modern) Israel will regain all its boundaries. Only DPism teaches another temple will be built. Only DPism teaches a return of the Levitical priesthood, and a return to animal sacrifices. Only Dispensational Premillennialism teach a two-pronged doctrine of salvation, one for the Jews in the millennium and another for everyone else. Only Dispensational Premillennialism teaches a grace+plus+works soteriology. Only Dispensational Premillennialists are not forthcoming about their teachings.

I can't even get an immediate, direct answer to a single simple op-relevant question.

If the author of this op is a Dispensational Premillennialist, then he holds an eschatology that is much different than anything ever held to be true in Christianity. Dispensational Premillennialism is a radical departure from historic orthodoxy and no one in DPism explains this to its followers. I know. I used to be a Dispy.



.

 

[MTMattie]

When in the future?

To say something in the future will happen in the future is redundant, and answering questions that way begs the question. God does not teach His people to be deliberately irrational.

Matt 24:36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't know when. This is just an opinion .

But are you all following President Trump over the past couple of days in Saudi Arabia? I listened to him and was just waiting
for him to suggest a 7 year peace pact for that area of the world.. extending to Israel and all.

Removing sanctions from Syria?

I believe something is up and we need to keep our eyes looking up... and our ears opened.

Maranatha,

Amen, amen.........................

something is up all right and highly wicked it truly is my friend .
And it has many co workers and has known how to blend into any group to seduce .
The chameleon can adapt its colors to fit into any surrounding .
It has hurled its sticky lie into every camp
and what the lost do not realize is that ol chameleon gonna swallow every last one of them down into its gut .
To a protestant it appears as one
a baptist , a methodist , a lutheran and you name it , IT has infiltrated
To a conservative , to a liberal , IT HAS INFILTRATED
FROM every realm of man , from education , politics , christendome , the false religoins
IT HAS INFILTRATED .
it has captivated even the hearts of atheists , wicans , the decieved WILL MERGE as one
under what all BELIEVE IS LOVE and what all religoins beleive is LOVE and of GOD .
IT GROWS daily and quickly now . IT has come in the name of love , of tolerance
of breaking down walls and building bridges , of seeker friendly
it is even all over the evagangelical realm . And all the peoples can see
is what the spider spins unto them as the web of truth and of love . BUT ITS ALL A deadly snare
and all who enter into it shall have their part in THE LAKE OF FIRE , this is the Second death .
May i suggest we all return to our bibles and seriously be refreshed and learning for our selves . cause many men be a fleecing
many now .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Matt 24:36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

And when the SON rises up and closes the door
ANY AND ALL OUTSIDE SHALL SURELY and SORELY WAIL . this is not a joking matter or even to be taken lightly .
AND all nations SHALL WAIL BECAUSE OF HIM .
MANY have TROD HIM UNDER FOOT and worse MANY ARE IN CHRISTENDOM and use HIS NAME
to LIE . a sore and heavy , deadly and harsh damnation awaits them .
SEEING i desire the death of none
NOR DO GOD
I suggest we fall in love with a bible again and learn THAT GOD real good , THAT CHRIST real good
for ourselves . cause many ARE GONNA WAIL .