Gnostic based theologies cannot do this...
Infant Reprobation and Damnation
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Nonsense. There is nothing in the narrative that teaches this. I'm a twin myself. You have to realize that twins always struggle with one another in the womb. It is a very small area.
Babies have little will of their own. Their actions are solely dependent upon others. Which is why they are innocent.
Immaturity does cause conflict and selfishness soon in the life of children but culpability is complicated.
Diserner
Well-known member
This is like Calvinist doublespeak.
Either God has free will, or he doesn't.
If it's bound by his nature, it's not free.
Diserner
Well-known member
So much self-righteous theology telling God what he can and cannot do derives from denying the sin nature.
It really restructures the whole idea of the Gospel into a false idolatrous creation-oriented works salvation.
If I'm born evil, if I'm evil at my core—well that destroys all hope of my own goodness saving me outside of the Cross.
It really restructures the whole idea of the Gospel into a false idolatrous creation-oriented works salvation.
If I'm born evil, if I'm evil at my core—well that destroys all hope of my own goodness saving me outside of the Cross.
Ezra
Well-known member
i have never listened to james white and Glad i haven't. i have done email correspondence with a Calvinist. i dont know how long it went on for every scripture he gave i countered it. it was adult level no barbs traded in remarks. actually he had Parkinson's or so he said. it all ended when he seen he couldnt convert me. i use to belong to carm forum . it got pretty ugly in there . i finally ended up telling a few what i thought i then was banned . i have a facebook friend in the u.k she is calvinist . we actually get along and agree with each other. i have even listened to her preacher.. she lives in Scotland. in discussion i am good to the point it gets they have the superior doctrine
civic
Well-known member
What sin nature ?
Ezra
Well-known member
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Of course the only REAL QUESTION in all of this foolishness is: WHAT CAN BE DONE spiritually to "redeem" the Infant.
No problem for Calvinists, since if the infant is "Elect" it's already "good to go", and if it's not "Elect", it's firewood anyway.
Catholics invented their "Paedobaptism" process to "Cleanse original sin", and they invented "Limbo" for unbaptized infants, but seem to have backed off that fantasy. Go figure.
PERSONALLY I don't buy into the whole "Original SIN" garbage, and consider babies, born and otherwise as simply being INNOCENT, and not in need of ANY "religious activities" to reach Heaven should they die.
My Firstborn only lasted about 6 hours or so before dying from Hyaline Membrane, since she was premature. PERSONALLY, I expect to meet Angeline (as we named her) when I get home, and see her as she is - No "theology" required.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Are you a judge?
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I tend to go with the "people expect answers to too many things that are entirely up to God" school of thought on this.Do the calvinists here affirm infant reprobation as James White teaches and believes just like augustine taught. ?
The Augnstinian doctrine is that original sin is damning, and that infants deserve eternal death on account of it. Being fallen in Adam, they have a corrupt disposition or inclination, which is both voluntary and responsible. It is the self in its central and inmost self-determination. Though the infant has committed no acts of known and wilful transgression, yet his heart is estranged from God, and his will is at enmity with the holy law of God. When be comes to years of consciousness he feels guilty for this estrangement and this enmity, and this proves that it is guilt. An infant, therefore, needs salvation because be is really culpable and punishable. He reqnires the whole work of the Redeemer, both as expiating guilt and cleansing from pollution.
Infant Salvation As Related to Original Sin, Calvinism, William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Christian Classics books at BibleStudyTools.com
Read Infant Salvation As Related to Original Sin of Calvinism from author William Greenough Thayer Shedd. Find more Christian classics for theology and Bible study at Bible Study Tools....www.biblestudytools.com
Diserner
Well-known member
Messed up!
We all deserve hell, every one of us!
Jesus said no one is good!
There's "theology" that gets a man to heaven.
Diserner
Well-known member
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (Jn. 7:24 NKJ)
Ummmm, sort of?
Everyone made at least one pre-conception free will choice.
The holy elect spirits made two free will choices: they put their faith in YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD and the only Saviour from sin as the truth and they chose not to rebel against HIM when He took HIS stand against the eternally evil ones who chose reprobation. They live and work for HIM in heaven as HIS angels.
The sinful good seed, aka the sinful people of the kingdom or the sheep gone astray, made two free will choices: they put their faith in YHWH's claims to be their creator GOD and the only Saviour from sin as the truth BUT they chose to rebel against HIM when He took HIS stand against the eternally evil ones who chose reprobation, making them sinful in HIS sight, needing redemption.
But the reprobate needed only one choice to seal their fate: they put their faith in HIS being a liar and rebuked HIM as a false god. This immediately enslaved their wills to the addictive power of evil so they could never by their own will seek HIM as their saviour even after they had the proof of HIS deity and eternal power and also, it put them outside of HIS merciful grace forever because to be a real free will choice it had to be sacrosanct and not corrected by GOD just because HE knew it was bad for them as HE had warned them...their fates were sealed as they were condemned immediately.
So the FATES of everyone was indeed sealed by their pre-earth choices but the LIVES of the sinful elect were not left to chance but were predetermined so they would be the best possible lives to bring HIS sinful sheep back to HIMself and to make them heaven ready to be HIS Bride.
Rockson
Well-known member
First I thankyou for your thoughtful reply in all this post. You spent considerable time on it. From your source as for me I don't agree there's a "large arena" for different interpretations on the Ps 51:6 verse, I think it's clear. God reveals wisdom in our inner most parts.....the hidden man of the heart Paul uses as well to describe the human spirit. To try to say this is the physical womb I'd still hold is out there on the fringe.
Can you show me one place in scripture it is used this way outside of your claim of Ps 51:6?
I'd kindly suggest that you don't take it too seriously. ;You'd be building a whole theological structure on one verse of scripture and the verse you use is highly questionable even to be used this way.
I'd say it would be really, REALLY taking liberties and crossing a line into a wild speculation of something....I see a lot of moral problems with it as well and you're inclined to think it would picture God in a better light. I think it would do the opposite which I could explain if you like.
I wouldn't think so myself.
Please... Gen 25:22 But the children inside her struggled with each other...
struggled: Strong's Concordance 7533. ratsats: to crack in pieces, literally or figuratively, ie, to crush to pieces and as a Hithpo`el reciprocal it means, the children crushed one another / each other within her.
All demoting of the word ratsats to mean to jostle, wrestle or struggle for room would seem to be eisegesis to offset the hint in this verse that a fetus can have murderous intentions. Of course changing the meaning for this word cannot offset the impossibility of their knowing the Hebrew law of primogeniture if they had just recently been created tabula rasa.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Were you a twin? Was your mother able to tell you how you and your brother struggled within her? My mother experienced it. All you can do is guess at it.
Don't believe everything you read from the MT. The Greek OT uses the same word for when Elizabeth was pregnant with John the Baptist in her womb and meet Mary.
"Leaping"
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Rockson
Well-known member
But couldn't we ask people for scriptures about a great many things and asking them to show the scriptures says it's impossible? eg. I like an odd episode of the 1950's Twilight Zone show. What if I were to ask someone, "Can you show me a scripture to show it's impossible for God to have created another universe where what you see in the show is happening?" For the reason the answer is no I can't, why should that lead us closer to a believability of it as having or is occuring? My point....it shouldn't lead us in any way closer to it at all. There's no reason it should.
Rockson
Well-known member
As for me no I don't accept that at all and I'm not sure many others do either. Infants die in the womb for a variety of reasons we could say but I wouldn't say for the reason you're putting this out. Yes sin coming into the universe because of Adam and Eves sin brought a compromise of genetics functioning perfectly and of their own physical bodies. For a baby to die would no more be the fault of the infant any more than an animal could experience a DNA genetic failure while being formed.
No I don't buy that at all. Yes their mother felt this truffle on the inside but was merely God touching upon the fetus's inside to do a certain motion in order to give a prophesy. Come to think of it I do believe I talked to you about this once before. I think too taking the Hebrew word to mean willfully crushing each other I think that's taking a word that CAN mean this but not in any full sense. Anyway I think I've said all I could say about this. Sometimes we can't provide a scripture and nor can anyone about somethings but we can I believe safely go by the law of probability. I wouldn't think it's possible what you're suggesting. God Bless!
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
ABSOLUTELY. We all deserve HELL FOR OUR OWN SIN!!! We don't need no stink'in "Original SIN".
