In Christ sort of

[PeanutGallery]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

a) Did God decree the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
b) Did God foresee the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
c) Did God decree the 'elect' to actually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
d) ______________ Or, your thoughts __________________, before the foundation of the world?

 

[civic]

e) my answer below- the first to believe and put our hope in Christ- we were included in Christ, in Him when ? when you BELIEVED

in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when: you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

When one reads the context we see how and when we were saved: after we believed we were included with Christ, not before.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

a) Did God decree the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
b) Did God foresee the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
c) Did God decree the 'elect' to actually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
d) ______________ Or, your thoughts __________________, before the foundation of the world?

Christ is named in the pronoun "Him". There is a reason "US" is not named and opened ended. It is indeterminate reference. We should leave it that way.

 

[PeanutGallery]

.. 13 And you also were included in Christ when: you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

When one reads the context we see how and when we were saved: after we believed we were included with Christ, not before.

hope this helps !!!

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

As does the audience in context; the faithful saints in Christ v.1, after one believes v.13ff

The question is why do some think anyone is in Christ before the foundation of the world?

 

[civic]

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

As does the audience in context; the faithful saints in Christ v.1, after one believes v.13ff

The question is why do some think anyone is in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Exactly the faithful in 1:1 are the same who by faith are in Christ in 1:13. No one is in Christ prior to faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

As does the audience in context; the faithful saints in Christ v.1, after one believes v.13ff

The question is why do some think anyone is in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world. The subsequent group is conformed to Him.

 

[Dizerner]

b) Did God foresee the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?

Not exactly, but something like this would be my view.

The word foreknowledge is used and we must account for it.

The way the Calvinists try to redeem the word to their own view by making it a relationship with a non-existent being seems unnatural.

As selfish and fallen creatures, we immediately assume God choosing one over another means he does not love those not so chosen, but this is not necessarily the case.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not exactly, but something like this would be my view.

The word foreknowledge is used and we must account for it.

The way the Calvinists try to redeem the word to their own view by making it a relationship with a non-existent being seems unnatural.

As selfish and fallen creatures, we immediately assume God choosing one over another means he does not love those not so chosen, but this is not necessarily the case.

Foreknowledge doesn't establish the entirety of the choice. It is a general statement of God's plan and purpose whereby He accomplishes His will through His infinite power.

 

[Dizerner]

Foreknowledge doesn't establish the entirety of the choice. It is a general statement of God's plan and purpose whereby He accomplishes His will through His infinite power.

You're watering down the word to nothing just like the Calvinists—only on the other side of the ditch.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're watering down the word to nothing just like the Calvinists—only on the other side of the ditch.

I'm not. God does as He pleases. He can use His power to set limits and define boundaries. Foreknowledge is not an indication of an absolute meticulous purpose.

Could you explain the necessity of your position?

Those He foreknew, those He predestined. That statement doesn't establish an absolute meticulous decree.

 

[civic]

I'm not. God does as He pleases. He can use His power to set limits and define boundaries. Foreknowledge is not an indication of an absolute meticulous purpose.

Could you explain the necessity of your position?

Those He foreknew, those He predestined. That statement doesn't establish an absolute meticulous decree.

Ditto

 

[Dizerner]

Could you explain the necessity of your position?

Those He foreknew, those He predestined. That statement doesn't establish an absolute meticulous decree.

It does base the predestination on the foreknowledge.

The reason I would not use the "decree" language is because it factors in many free will choices other than God's.

 

[Wrangler]

Christ is named in the pronoun "Him". There is a reason "US" is not named and opened ended. It is indeterminate reference. We should leave it that way.

It's amazing to me how often you read Scripture incorrectly to support your doctrine. The "him" is God, juxtaposed with his agent, Christ.

Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for the spiritual blessings that Christ has brought us from heaven! 4 Before the world was created, God had Christ choose us to live with him and to be his holy and innocent and loving people. 5 God was kind[b] and decided that Christ would choose us to be God's own adopted children.

1. Who is being praised? The God of Jesus.
2. Who decided what Christ would do before the world was created? God, in his unitarian nature.
3. Who choose us? God in his unitarian nature.
4. Who carried out God's choice to have us live with him? God's agent, Christ.
5. Who was kind? God, in his unitarian nature.
6. Whose adopted children are we NOT? Christ.
7. Whose adopted children are we? God, in his unitarian nature.
8. Who decided to adopt us? God, in his unitarian nature.
9. Who did God decide would be his agent in the adoption process? Christ.

The reason there is no "us" is because God is singular, requiring singular pronouns. See 1C.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It's amazing to me how often you read Scripture incorrectly to support your doctrine. The "him" is God, juxtaposed with his agent, Christ.

Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for the spiritual blessings that Christ has brought us from heaven! 4 Before the world was created, God had Christ choose us to live with him and to be his holy and innocent and loving people. 5 God was kind[b] and decided that Christ would choose us to be God's own adopted children.

1. Who is being praised? The God of Jesus.
2. Who decided what Christ would do before the world was created? God, in his unitarian nature.
3. Who choose us? God in his unitarian nature.
4. Who carried out God's choice to have us live with him? God's agent, Christ.
5. Who was kind? God, in his unitarian nature.
6. Whose adopted children are we NOT? Christ.
7. Whose adopted children are we? God, in his unitarian nature.
8. Who decided to adopt us? God, in his unitarian nature.
9. Who did God decide would be his agent in the adoption process? Christ.

The reason there is no "us" is because God is singular, requiring singular pronouns. See 1C.

There are so many things wrong with what you stated that is hard to know where to start....

The "Spirit of Adoption" doesn't make us "adopted" children. We are of the very seed of God. That is why we call it "Born Again".

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

You're going to be surprised one day when you bow before Christ and rightfully recognize His equal position with the Father. I don't want that to happen for you. It is hard to "kick against the "pricks" in resting God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

a) Did God decree the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
b) Did God foresee the 'elect' would eventually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
c) Did God decree the 'elect' to actually be in Christ, before the foundation of the world?
d) ______________ Or, your thoughts __________________, before the foundation of the world?

For Cavinists, A,B, and C are YES!!!!
For me. I'll go with Romans 9, and say: I don't know, and certainly wouldn't try to make a "Doctrine" out of any of it.

It's unimportant anyway. What IS important is that when you're CONVICTED OF YOUR SIN by the Holy SPirit, you surrender, repent and cry out to Him in FAITH for salvation. Then everything changes, and you're new, CLEAN, and perfect before God, and it's time to start maturing in the FAITH.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For Cavinists, A,B, and C are YES!!!!
For me. I'll go with Romans 9, and say: I don't know, and certainly wouldn't try to make a "Doctrine" out of any of it.

It's unimportant anyway. What IS important is that when you're CONVICTED OF YOUR SIN by the Holy SPirit, you surrender, repent and cry out to Him in FAITH for salvation. Then everything changes, and you're new, CLEAN, and perfect before God, and it's time to start maturing in the FAITH.

Calvinism produces a lack of Empathy in humanity. Their doctrine actually drives people away from God. They are not alone. Not trying to single them out. Just telling you why it is important.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Calvinism produces a lack of Empathy in humanity. Their doctrine actually drives people away from God. They are not alone. Not trying to single them out. Just telling you why it is important.

Which doesn't bother a Calvinist at all.

To the Calvinist, if you're "Elect" ("U","L"), then you Are / will be saved ("I"), and you'll Persevere till the end ("P")- and you have no choice in the matter.

If you're NOT elect ("T","L"), you'll burn for eternity, and you have no choice in the matter.

Simple as that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Which doesn't bother a Calvinist at all.

To the Calvinist, if you're "Elect" ("U","L"), then you Are / will be saved ("I"), and you'll Persevere till the end ("P")- and you have no choice in the matter.

If you're NOT elect ("T","L"), you'll burn for eternity, and you have no choice in the matter.

Simple as that.

Correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that Calvinism drives people away from God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Correct. However, that doesn't change the fact that Calvinism drives people away from God.

O.K. - But to a Calvinist, if you're "Elect" you'll come ("I"), and if you're not, you CAN'T come ("T", "L"). SO the one that are "driven away" aren't elect, and don't matter.

I'm not a Calvinist (or any other kind of "ist" personally, as a "Free-range Charismatic Eclectic").

Paul didn't worry about "Election" but made himself "all things to all men that he might win SOME".

 

[praise_yeshua]

O.K. - But to a Calvinist, if you're "Elect" you'll come ("I"), and if you're not, you CAN'T come ("T", "L"). SO the one that are "driven away" aren't elect, and don't matter.

I'm not a Calvinist (or any other kind of "ist" personally, as a "Free-range Charismatic Eclectic").

I know you're not. I'm glad when you share your uniqueness. We need more of this.

Self serving religions like Calvinism are easily recognizable as being "self serving". That excludes many many people.