Even the pictures they show of Jesus is error because they do not have Jesus with that religion.
How can we discern truth in a world of deception
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Catholics revere scripture it is how we know all this:
Scripture answers
Romans 10:14-15 "how can they preach unless they are sent" - so listen only tothe succession
Stay true to the faith handed down (paradosis tradition) 2 thess 2:15
Handing down -tradition was the ONLY way the faith was passed in the early church.
Few if any could read. Romans burned documents on finding them.
The decision on what was scritpure was centuries in the future. The printing press making it available
was 1500 years away, and the ability of the common man to afford it was 1800 years ahead!
In direct answer to how we know what is true!
Scripture says Take disputes to the church!! Read matthew 18
Listen to those given the power to bind and loose, that is giving definitive judgemet
Matthew 18:18 - the power of the successors of apostles jointly - wield
And Matthew 16:19 - Peter alone - so called infallibility rarely used
( but even Calvin accepts the succession in commentaries on this, but somehow thinks the pope "revoked It" which is news to the actual catholic church!)
That is why the physical church (not scripture) is declared the foundation of truth 1 tim 3:15
Without that authority of council, you do not even know what is scripture. Which was a decision of the church.
You have no new testament without the authority to bind and loose.
Alas protestants break the scripture in proverbs.
Proverbs 3:5-6 "lean not on your own understanding"
That is why all protestants disagree with each other.
Without the meaning from tradition and authority, all they have is words.
Gods Word is a three legged stool. Scripture , tradition and authority , that give it the right meaning
Remove one leg of the stool as protestants do, and the table falls over.
So it is sad Mike whoever he is (not mentioned in the bible except seemingly as an apostate) preferred his own understanding.
It is why protestantism fragments in thousands of pieces whenyou take your opinions as gospel!
EVEN Luther despaired of it.
Without the cahtolic church you would have an unspired canon and heresies declared by the church would have proliferated instead
It is also why the catholic church remains constant in doctrine
Matthew 24:14 the gospel preached to the end of time( not till a bloke called mike decides against it in 2023
Is the church perfect? Of course not.
It is sinners. Catholicism has more than most. We have more people than most.
But unlike protestants we trust our Lord when he says the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.
To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.
@Keiw1 I know you love to hate the catholic church. (catholic, not roman catholic, others gave it the name roman! not us!)
But you should study it first. Read the scriptures above. Catholics revere scripture, it is why we know what it means.
I was a protestant I know all the myths they preach. Sola scriptura is a man made tradition of the reformation responsible for the fruits of division
Scripture answers
Romans 10:14-15 "how can they preach unless they are sent" - so listen only tothe succession
Stay true to the faith handed down (paradosis tradition) 2 thess 2:15
Handing down -tradition was the ONLY way the faith was passed in the early church.
Few if any could read. Romans burned documents on finding them.
The decision on what was scritpure was centuries in the future. The printing press making it available
was 1500 years away, and the ability of the common man to afford it was 1800 years ahead!
In direct answer to how we know what is true!
Scripture says Take disputes to the church!! Read matthew 18
Listen to those given the power to bind and loose, that is giving definitive judgemet
Matthew 18:18 - the power of the successors of apostles jointly - wield
And Matthew 16:19 - Peter alone - so called infallibility rarely used
( but even Calvin accepts the succession in commentaries on this, but somehow thinks the pope "revoked It" which is news to the actual catholic church!)
That is why the physical church (not scripture) is declared the foundation of truth 1 tim 3:15
Without that authority of council, you do not even know what is scripture. Which was a decision of the church.
You have no new testament without the authority to bind and loose.
Alas protestants break the scripture in proverbs.
Proverbs 3:5-6 "lean not on your own understanding"
That is why all protestants disagree with each other.
Without the meaning from tradition and authority, all they have is words.
Gods Word is a three legged stool. Scripture , tradition and authority , that give it the right meaning
Remove one leg of the stool as protestants do, and the table falls over.
So it is sad Mike whoever he is (not mentioned in the bible except seemingly as an apostate) preferred his own understanding.
It is why protestantism fragments in thousands of pieces whenyou take your opinions as gospel!
EVEN Luther despaired of it.
Without the cahtolic church you would have an unspired canon and heresies declared by the church would have proliferated instead
It is also why the catholic church remains constant in doctrine
Matthew 24:14 the gospel preached to the end of time( not till a bloke called mike decides against it in 2023
Is the church perfect? Of course not.
It is sinners. Catholicism has more than most. We have more people than most.
But unlike protestants we trust our Lord when he says the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.
To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.
@Keiw1 I know you love to hate the catholic church. (catholic, not roman catholic, others gave it the name roman! not us!)
But you should study it first. Read the scriptures above. Catholics revere scripture, it is why we know what it means.
I was a protestant I know all the myths they preach. Sola scriptura is a man made tradition of the reformation responsible for the fruits of division
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How come in their pictures of hippie Jesus they fail to realize it is a dishonor for an Israelite male to have long hair? So they portray Jesus to all creation bringing dishonor to his Fathers name- 1Cor 11:14)--
How come their churches and homes are filled with statues, icons and graven images even though Gods word condemns the usage of all 3?
The protestants didn't fix much either.
All trinity religions = a mass of confusion.
Who is “ they” ? You mean me and the catholic church comprising almost all Christian’s for the first thousand years till some broke away, and most of us since. You are on the wrong side of history!
If you study iconography, the images crystallise to the same likeness at the time of the mandylion of Edesa, which can now be assumed to be the shroud of Turin folded, which Science increasingly if not overwhelmingly regards as genuine. The icons carry some of the same peculiarities as the shroud.
So they are taken from a real image of Christ!
Who are you to judge what God made man can and cannot do with His holy hair? He did much that outraged local cultures
He can. He is God!
A single proof text proves nothing. Paul needed Christians to fit in as far as they could to be accepted by locals And not stir up animosity in the communities they wanted to convert.Leads to the saying, When in Rome, do like the Romans.
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The religion that came out of Rome=2Thess 2:3. They NEVER had Jesus. No true follower EVER served God as a trinity. Catholicisms own translating of the Greek lexicons prove there is no capitol G God to the word at John 1:1
There is no real image of Christ in existence.
In your opinion only on scripture, and by "catholicism" you mean almost all of the early and present church.
So you are saying almost everyone but you is wrong. A very bold place to be.
Thats the problem with doing what scripture tells you not to do: you "lean on your own understanding" -
Whilst you fail to listen to those who " were sent" to hand down the truth "tradition", the catholci church is the "pillar of truth" given the power to "bind and loose" by Jesus.
As for the image. Increasingly science is coming round to the blindingly obvious.
The shroud of Turin, Sudarium of Oviedo and Linceul of argentuille are the real deal. The forensic correspondence between them is undeniable. The fabric is first century. The debris is Jerusalem area. So it really IS an image of Jesus, whether you like it or not. And because it is a non contact image, it was most likely a radiation mark formed at the moment of the resurrection.
Empires and dynasties of centuries standing have come and gone. The roman empire is but a distant memory. But the catholic church still remains, preaching what it always did, despite all the sinners in it, because it is protected by Jesus himself.
How else do you explain the longevity or constancy? It was Jesus promise. Hell would not prevail against His church.
Start anew. Drop all your preconceptions. Read early church history, some church fathers even taught by apostles. And see what the church really is.
It isnt protestant. It is catholic, with sola Dei Verbum - the word of God as scripture tradition and authority, just as the bible states. Without it you do not even know what is scripture, let alone what it means.
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At least 20 translations in history had --a god at John 1:1, 3 had was divine, 1 had was godlike. Rejected by all trinity religions because it exposes them. Have you looked at how its worded in the Greek Lexicons? The true God called-Ton Theon,= God, the word called Theon= a god when Ton Theon is used in the same paragraph-2 Cor 4:4 is proof of that translating rule. Satan called Theon-god, and the true God called Ton Theon.
In your opinion. Now listen to those who were sent , whom Jesus gave divine power to resolve disputes on meaning.
Johann
Well-known member
The 'shroud" is not that of Jesus of Nazareth.
In your opinion.
Azriel
Well-known member
In my opinion from reading this:
New forensic research suggests the holy shroud might not be the real deal. I would like it to be real.
www.history.com
New forensic research suggests the holy shroud might not be the real deal. I would like it to be real.
Shroud of Turin Isn’t Jesus’ Burial Cloth, Claims Forensic Study | HISTORY
The latest analysis adds to a centuries‑long debate over the shroud’s authenticity.
www.history.com
And that has been the problem from the start.In my opinion from reading this:
New forensic research suggests the holy shroud might not be the real deal. I would like it to be real.
Shroud of Turin Isn’t Jesus’ Burial Cloth, Claims Forensic Study | HISTORY
The latest analysis adds to a centuries‑long debate over the shroud’s authenticity.
As mark twain said " a lie can go all the way round the world before the truth gets its boots on"
I am an expert on the shroud, and I have almost all that was ever written on it.
The Dishonest like Garlaschelli write nonsense, and all believe it because they WANT to believe it is false , and such as Garlaschelli can make a good living out of nonsense. The atheist media laps it up. Look hard you can even find a paper that says "da vinci did it" despite the fact he was yet to be born! But the atheist media rarely if ever publishes the rebuttal of such nonsense.
So if you are curious Garlaschelli used a dye process, yet even in 1978 it is known that there is no dye. It is a very think layer oxidation dehydration of cellulose. So no dye process could be responsible either because it would soak into the threads.
Garlaschelli made no attempt to match the chemistry of the shroud mark (the difficult bit) . So whatever his fraudulent "copy" looks like, it is not a copy of the shroud.
It is Just like the fraudulent RC dating also gained traction - it took 20 years to dismantle the fraud. Yes fraud!
As later papers note, the data in the nature paper had been manipulated "by unknown transform" to give homogeneity, without which the test was null and void in scientific terms..
But that is hardly surprising, the validation tests that Tite did two years before on fabric on AMS also failed. They conveniently failed to mention it of course in the nature paper that AMS was a fail. The main archeologist on STURP who was experienced at fabric testing - that is Meacham - also comprehensively showed that RC dating could never be the definitive answer . He wrote a book on it before the tests!
Also There is cotton in the test samples, none in the body of the shroud. So whatever they tested was not original shroud, it was later repair, and has a date gradient. Even the linen of the test samples does not match the linen of the shroud, it is much older and has a different structure. Even Michael Tite of the fraudulent dating now admits it is the shroud of really crucified man! So he disagrees with Garlasschelli too.
Meanwhile numerous other dating methods give first century, deposits show origin near jerusalem, and the forensic correspondence with far older custody sudarium and linceul of argemtuille make forgery impossible. The forger could not even see the chemistry he had to forge and the cloths were neever together! The non contact mark shows radiation as the cause.
Need I go on? There is a lot more supporting authenticity. Nothing at all supporting fraud other than discredited pseudoscience like the RC date.
So the overwhelming likelihood, it is the real deal.
It also matches the fact that iconography even in early centuries after discovery of the mandylion unified on the christ image you see, which has features that are peculiar to the shroud.
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Azriel
Well-known member
I'm glad that you stand up for what you believe and what you've learned from your study. I know we all have our favorite topics that we like to study and discuss. Things that are interesting to us. I was talking to members today in our life group About how friendships can be interesting. What makes a good friendship. Long lasting friendships. How some long-lasting friendships go bad. That's one really cool thing about the kingdom of God is there so many things to study.
It is a forum that allows discussion which is good!
So are you impressed with Garlaschelli who claimed a copy that did not match the chemistry at all?
Are you impressed with the RC daters who literally fiddled the data!
Few people seem to know...
Yet very little of the real science ever makes the media, only ever the ill founded skeptic papers.
Its not opinion, its fact. Billions mislead because of an error capitol G God to the word. Fact-John 20:17, Rev 3:12= Jesus has a God just like us.--God does not have a God, that would be more than one God. At John 1:1 even, in simple English if the word is God, then the second line actually reads-And God was with God= impossible, there is only 1 God. As well Jesus makes it 100% clear at John 17:3= the one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD, its why Paul only named the Father as God at 1 Cor 8:6.
In your opinion based on your understanding. You can quote your proof texts. I can quote others
"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" john 14 and elsewhere "I and the father are one"
In rthe end it does not matter what you (or I) think.
The church and succesion was given the power to bind and loose by Jesus - ie the power to resolve disputes on doctrine.
It has spoken . Jesus speaks through the decisions of the church. It is why the church, not scripture is called "The pillar of truth".
Most of the early heresies and disputes were on christology, the nature of God. The nicene creed was created to explain the decision..
Yet still there are those who refuse to believe Jesus - take some pentecostals are modalists. They Reinventian old christological heresy outed by the church in the first centuries.
Reinventing heresies is what happens with sola scriptura when all of you decide for yourselves based on your own understanding.
. You put your opinions ahead of Jesus speaking through" the pillar of truth".
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I quoted the bible=Gods words. The bible is the authority-Church is run by imperfect mortals. All mortals err. Its why the christian religion looks like a mass of confusion to all creation, because it is. Jesus is with 1 single religion( 1 Cor 1:10) not hundreds of them.
Azriel
Well-known member
Anyone that has a picture of Jesus has a piece of art not a photograph. We do have a description of him from the Bible it says he was very common looking. So any religion that shows a picture of Jesus by your statement Would be in error.
The closest thing we get to a description is in Isaiah 53:2b, “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.” All this tells us is that Jesus’ appearance was just like any other man’s – He was ordinary-looking.
What did Jesus look like? | GotQuestions.org
What did Jesus look like? Does the Bible give any description of the physical appearance of Jesus?
www.gotquestions.org
Scripture is only Gods word, if first you correctly decide what is scripture ( a decision of the church) and you have the right meaning ( for it , for which scripture tells you you need the church! - the pillar of truth that can bind and loose)
You only have words, and attach your own meaning to them, leaning on your understanding , not listening to those who were sent to teach you.
Johann
Well-known member
What do you want to bind and loose? Those keys are in the hands of Yeshua.
