Here I summarize seven atonement theories.

civic said:
No
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What a shame! I'll have to wait for the cliff notes version to come out.

Let me suggest a hook to better sell your book. Many executive summaries are in the inside cover of the book. Often, it is this that drives wether or not I'll buy the book and take the time to explore the ideas more fully.
 
Wrangler said:
What a shame! I'll have to wait for the cliff notes version to come out.

Let me suggest a hook to better sell your book. Many executive summaries are in the inside cover of the book. Often, it is this that drives wether or not I'll buy the book and take the time to explore the ideas more fully.
Click to expand...
Thanks I’ll work on one this weekend just for you my friend :)
 
civic said:
It’s simple . I reject and penal or judicial aspect regarding the atonement.
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Based on what Scriptural evidence?

Do you hold to the Model theory-Christos Victor-Ransom.
As explained-Kippur is a multi faceted diamond-a web with the spider as the core doctrine of Kippur-and the 7 theories against PSA.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero'a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?

Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.

Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [ Dan_9:26 ; Lev_17:10 ] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see Isa_53:12 ] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) -nega (plague cf Psa_91:10 ) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Psa_11:7 and Job_22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen_9:26-27 ; Deu_33:2 ; Isa_44:15 ; also compare 1Ch_21:17 ]).

Isa 53:9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha'im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-

12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].

Graphic-isn't it?

You cannot go left-or right-but have to marvel-"It pleased YHVH to bruise Him- He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin

Shalom
J.

And-this is NOT referring to Israel-but Jesus Christ.
 
And it’s left out of the NT by Jesus and the Apostle's because the atonement was misunderstood. There is a reason why the wrath is left out in the NT.

Plus it says in Is 53- WE (not God ) considered him smitten.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
And it’s left out of the NT by Jesus and the Apostle's because the atonement was misunderstood. There is a reason why the wrath is left out in the NT.

Plus it says in Is 53- WE (not God ) considered him smitten.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Ah!-Hinei! You are mistaken-let us stop "dancing" around each other brother-and listen to the objections from William Craig.

The NT is full of wrath-so we conveniently "read over" these important passages-as you just did with Isaiah 53? We can go deeper in this passage.
:)

Shalom
J.
 
civic said:
There is a reason why the wrath is left out in the NT.
Click to expand...

Johann said:
The NT is full of wrath-so we conveniently "read over" these important passages-as you just did with Isaiah 53? We can go deeper in this passage.
:)
Click to expand...


Indeed.

It seems some people have a different "NT."


"Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (Matt. 3:7 NKJ)

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Lk. 21:23 NKJ)

he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:36 NKJ)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness (Rom. 1:18 NKJ)

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath (Rom. 2:5 NKJ)

but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath, (Rom. 2:8 NKJ)

Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (Rom. 3:5 NKJ)

because the law brings about wrath; (Rom. 4:15 NKJ)

we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom. 5:9 NKJ)

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, (Rom. 9:22 NKJ)

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; (Rom. 12:19 NKJ)

for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him (Rom. 13:4 NKJ)

and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph. 2:3 NKJ)

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6 NKJ)

Because of these things the wrath of God is coming (Col. 3:6 NKJ)

Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (1 Thess. 1:10 NKJ)

but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16 NKJ)

For God did not appoint us to wrath, (1 Thess. 5:9 NKJ)

So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'" (Heb. 3:11 NKJ)

and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16-17 NKJ)

and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Rev. 14:19 NKJ)

He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)
 
Johann said:
Ah!-Hinei! You are mistaken-let us stop "dancing" around each other brother-and listen to the objections from William Craig.

The NT is full of wrath-so we conveniently "read over" these important passages-as you just did with Isaiah 53? We can go deeper in this passage.
:)

Shalom
J.
Click to expand...
Never wrath on the Son or the righteous and always falls on the ungodly , reprobates and haters of God. The PSA doctrine which is unbiblical has it falling on the Holy, Innocent, Righteous, Sinless Son if God. It’s blasphemous with Gods wrath falling upon God on the cross. God the Fathers anger against God the Son. It’s absurd.

hope this helps !!!
 
dizerner said:
Indeed.

It seems some people have a different "NT."


"Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (Matt. 3:7 NKJ)

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Lk. 21:23 NKJ)

he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:36 NKJ)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness (Rom. 1:18 NKJ)

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath (Rom. 2:5 NKJ)

but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath, (Rom. 2:8 NKJ)

Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (Rom. 3:5 NKJ)

because the law brings about wrath; (Rom. 4:15 NKJ)

we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom. 5:9 NKJ)

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, (Rom. 9:22 NKJ)

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; (Rom. 12:19 NKJ)

for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him (Rom. 13:4 NKJ)

and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph. 2:3 NKJ)

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6 NKJ)

Because of these things the wrath of God is coming (Col. 3:6 NKJ)

Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (1 Thess. 1:10 NKJ)

but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16 NKJ)

For God did not appoint us to wrath, (1 Thess. 5:9 NKJ)

So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'" (Heb. 3:11 NKJ)

and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16-17 NKJ)

and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Rev. 14:19 NKJ)

He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)
Click to expand...
Thanks for making my point for me I appreciate it allot . :)
 
dizerner said:
Indeed.

It seems some people have a different "NT."


"Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (Matt. 3:7 NKJ)

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (Lk. 21:23 NKJ)

he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn. 3:36 NKJ)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness (Rom. 1:18 NKJ)

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath (Rom. 2:5 NKJ)

but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath, (Rom. 2:8 NKJ)

Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (Rom. 3:5 NKJ)

because the law brings about wrath; (Rom. 4:15 NKJ)

we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Rom. 5:9 NKJ)

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, (Rom. 9:22 NKJ)

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; (Rom. 12:19 NKJ)

for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him (Rom. 13:4 NKJ)

and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph. 2:3 NKJ)

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 5:6 NKJ)

Because of these things the wrath of God is coming (Col. 3:6 NKJ)

Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (1 Thess. 1:10 NKJ)

but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16 NKJ)

For God did not appoint us to wrath, (1 Thess. 5:9 NKJ)

So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'" (Heb. 3:11 NKJ)

and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16-17 NKJ)

and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Rev. 14:19 NKJ)

He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)
Click to expand...
I have shared these scripture references with @civic brother-there is no consistency from those who do not hold to PSA.
J.
 
civic said:
Never wrath on the Son or the righteous and always falls on the ungodly , reprobates and haters of God. The PSA doctrine which is unbiblical has it falling on the Holy, Innocent, Righteous, Sinless Son if God. It’s blasphemous with Gods wrath falling upon God on the cross. God the Fathers anger against God the Son. It’s absurd.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Nothing blasphemous here-why did YHVH punish the Son on the Cross as per Isaiah 53? In our stead?
This is liberating to me-and far from being blasphemous.
Yes?
 
Johann said:
Nothing blasphemous here-why did YHVH punish the Son on the Cross as per Isaiah 53? In our stead?
This is liberating to me-and far from being blasphemous.
Yes?
Click to expand...
That’s a fallacy there was no punishment from the Father to the Son.
 

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