Heaven is a real place

[Doug Brents]

I said it is a reference to the Resurrection of the dead from the grave.

Forgive me, I was remembering another event, and I did not read the passage you referenced again before I said they had died again. My mistake.

Yes, Ezekiel's prophecy is a reference to the resurrection of the dead, but it, like Revelation, is a figurative account of the resurrection in terms that man can understand. You think it implies that man will have flesh and bones and tendons etc. But again, we do not know what we will be like at the resurrection. I can't, and won't, tell you what I think we will be like, because I have no idea, but I do know that we will be changed from what we are now.

That is a interpretation. I don't teach the "rapture". There is much debate over this. I'm looking for evidence. That is what you demand from me...... right?

And Scripture's accounts are not evidence for you? I don't teach the rapture either. We are in the Tribulation now (Rev 1:9), and have been since before the end of the first century.
All we can know for sure is what the Word tells us. And it tells us that all life will end suddenly when Jesus returns, the living in Christ will meet Him in the air after the dead in Christ are raised to meet Him, and then the evil dead will be raised to Judgement after the wedding celebration of Jesus to the Church is held in Heaven (Rev 19-20, Rev 1:7, 2 Pet 3:10-12, 1 Thes 4:6).

So your life now is just going to be forgotten? You have a history.... right?

Forget about "physical". I prefer the context of "tangible". Often times they are equal. In some circles they're not. I don't want to "talk past" one another when we are saying the same things.

"face to face" is rather unique phrase. I recommend you study the use of the "phrase" throughout the Scriptures. Paul is appealing to Jacob "wrestling with God" in Genesis 32.

We are all the sum of our experiences. You can't leave our bodies out of this. I know you want to do this because of many troubling things we experience in our lives but you're looking at this the wrong way.

"Forgetting the anguish" is part of this brother.

We will indeed forget all the troublesome parts of this life (Isa 65:17, Rev 21:4). I believe that we will remember the good times, and relationships, and things like that, as there is evidence in Scripture of people remembering other people. But not all of our history will be remembered, and maybe not any of it; it will be overshadowed by the glory we find in God's presence.

Even the spiritual is "tangible" to other spirits, so yes, things will be tangible on the other side of the resurrection. But you can indeed leave our bodies out of this. This body is nothing more than a seed of what we will become.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There are two aspects of existence after the death of our mortal bodies.

You are referencing the period in-between the death of our mortal bodies and the bodily Resurrection from the grave.

Notice there is no context of a bodily resurrection in 2 Corinthians 5. Many false doctrine are taught from these verses. False doctrines such as "soul sleep" and "eternal slumber".

Paul deals with the bodily Resurrection previously in 1 Corinthians 15. 2 Corinthians 5 was obviously a response to how those in Corinth responded in conflating what Paul taught about the Physical Resurrection and what immediately happened upon the death of the saints. The Physical Resurrection will involve many saints. The reference in 2 Corinthians 5 only deals with individual deaths.

The bodily Resurrection will not take place until the culmination of many varying things promised to mankind.

After today I will likely not have access to a computer for a week or longer, ( I need 2 new ones and will need to leave this with Best Buy to have them transfer stuff) but for clatification of my post......

You say " The bodily Resurrection will not take place until the culmination of many varying things promised to mankind."

While I agree with this I want to be clear that my replies on this subject are simply to point Jim to the place where it biblically states that in the end... WE WILL HAVE A BODY THAT THE BIBLE CALLS A GLORIFIED BODY.... that as we see in

2 Cor 5: 1-4

5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life

IS PROOF.... unless one thinks that Saul/Paul was a simpleton.

When and how it happens is of little need to understand when one totally denies it will.

So other then what I have posted scripture wise... can you think of another that specifically says we will get new bodies??????????? Or dont you think we will?

 

[Jim]

After today I will likely not have access to a computer for a week or longer, ( I need 2 new ones and will need to leave this with Best Buy to have them transfer stuff) but for clatification of my post......

You say " The bodily Resurrection will not take place until the culmination of many varying things promised to mankind."

While I agree with this I want to be clear that my replies on this subject are simply to point Jim to the place where it biblically states that in the end... WE WILL HAVE A BODY THAT THE BIBLE CALLS A GLORIFIED BODY.... that as we see in

2 Cor 5: 1-4

5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life

IS PROOF.... unless one thinks that Saul/Paul was a simpleton.

When and how it happens is of little need to understand when one totally denies it will.

So other then what I have posted scripture wise... can you think of another that specifically says we will get new bodies??????????? Or dont you think we will?

Nothing there says anything about glorified bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:3

(ESV) if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
(ISV) Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body.
(KJV) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

I think the ISV is a bit of eisegesis. And the same can be said for verse 4.

 

[praise_yeshua]

After today I will likely not have access to a computer for a week or longer, ( I need 2 new ones and will need to leave this with Best Buy to have them transfer stuff) but for clatification of my post......

You say " The bodily Resurrection will not take place until the culmination of many varying things promised to mankind."

While I agree with this I want to be clear that my replies on this subject are simply to point Jim to the place where it biblically states that in the end... WE WILL HAVE A BODY THAT THE BIBLE CALLS A GLORIFIED BODY.... that as we see in

2 Cor 5: 1-4

5 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life

IS PROOF.... unless one thinks that Saul/Paul was a simpleton.

When and how it happens is of little need to understand when one totally denies it will.

So other then what I have posted scripture wise... can you think of another that specifically says we will get new bodies??????????? Or dont you think we will?

What you quoted talks of leaving our existing bodies and having a new "body" that is from heaven. That happens when we all die at different times throughout history.

That existing body from heaven will be clothed in the physical body of the bodily Resurrection in the future.

It is not difficult to understand at all. No. I do not believe that Paul was a simpleton. Never even implied it.

The body will be raised incorruptible.

1Co 15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

When YOU or I die, "Death IS NOT swallowed up in victory". Our sons and daughters will still die. Our wives and husbands will still die.

You're teaching false doctrine when you conflate these separate events. Doesn't matter who you are or what you claim. It is wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nothing there says anything about glorified bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:3

(ESV) if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
(ISV) Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body.
(KJV) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

I think the ISV is a bit of eisegesis. And the same can be said for verse 4.

Php 3:21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.

I suppose you believe Christ Jesus in the Incarnation had a corruptible body?

Was Jesus like you or not?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Forgive me, I was remembering another event, and I did not read the passage you referenced again before I said they had died again. My mistake.

Yes, Ezekiel's prophecy is a reference to the resurrection of the dead, but it, like Revelation, is a figurative account of the resurrection in terms that man can understand. You think it implies that man will have flesh and bones and tendons etc. But again, we do not know what we will be like at the resurrection. I can't, and won't, tell you what I think we will be like, because I have no idea, but I do know that we will be changed from what we are now.

And Scripture's accounts are not evidence for you? I don't teach the rapture either. We are in the Tribulation now (Rev 1:9), and have been since before the end of the first century.
All we can know for sure is what the Word tells us. And it tells us that all life will end suddenly when Jesus returns, the living in Christ will meet Him in the air after the dead in Christ are raised to meet Him, and then the evil dead will be raised to Judgement after the wedding celebration of Jesus to the Church is held in Heaven (Rev 19-20, Rev 1:7, 2 Pet 3:10-12, 1 Thes 4:6).

We will indeed forget all the troublesome parts of this life (Isa 65:17, Rev 21:4). I believe that we will remember the good times, and relationships, and things like that, as there is evidence in Scripture of people remembering other people. But not all of our history will be remembered, and maybe not any of it; it will be overshadowed by the glory we find in God's presence.

Even the spiritual is "tangible" to other spirits, so yes, things will be tangible on the other side of the resurrection. But you can indeed leave our bodies out of this. This body is nothing more than a seed of what we will become.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Nothing about forgetting or not remembering. It is important to remember. In fact, the Scriptures teach against forgetting where we came from.

Deu_24:18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

The word "remember" is found 214 times in the KJV and 237 times in the ESV of the Protestant Canon.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah details the perspective of considering former events as if being "bound" to them. Having "memory" of former events is essential. If you do not remember where you came from, then from whence do you gather the complete context of gratitude?

The "nor come into mind" portion of Isa 65:17 is problematic.

In the Greek witnesses, "mind" isn't referenced. The "heart" is.

“For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall by no means remember the former things, nor shall they at all come upon the heart.”

Rev 21 is referencing the fulfillment of Isa 65.

I've heard your position over and over again throughout my life. I reject it. It is not the absence of knowledge or knowledge being removed from our minds. It the what that knowledge NOW means to us in the context of different circumstances.

I've heard people say they couldn't enough "heaven" if they knew/remembered certain things and my answer to that is.....

Just wait till you experience what God has prepared for us. You'll be surprised. Joy isn't the absence of pain.

As far as the "body being a seed".........I can't imagine a "seed" bursting from the ground. Bone to bone brother. It is a large seed.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Nothing there says anything about glorified bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:3

(ESV) if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
(ISV) Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body.
(KJV) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

I think the ISV is a bit of eisegesis. And the same can be said for verse 4.

Saul/Paul was a dimwit... I agree. Yet the stupid people chosing what THEY claim to be valid scriptures called this part of Canon.

So because the word glorified was not mentioned you figure there can be no body???????????????????/

2 Corinthians 5:1-10​

we will not be spirits without bodies 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
Add these to this one and tell me how you would cover up a spirit.....

New Living Translation
For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. (Heavenly body does not count,since it does not say glorified. right????/)

International Standard Version
Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body.
2 cor 5:3

Mace New Testament​

tho' should I be divested of this body, I shall not even then be destitute of one.

​

​ ​ New International Version because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. New Living Translation For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. (Heavenly body does not count, right????/) English Standard Version if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. Berean Standard Bible because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. Berean Literal Bible if indeed also having been clothed, we will not be found naked. King James Bible If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. New King James Version if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. New American Standard Bible since in fact after putting it on, we will not be found naked. NASB 1995 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. NASB 1977 inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. Legacy Standard Bible inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. Amplified Bible so that by putting it on we will not be found naked. Christian Standard Bible since, when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. Holman Christian Standard Bible since, when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. American Standard Version if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Contemporary English Version We want to put it on like clothes and not be naked. English Revised Version if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. GOD'S WORD® Translation After we have put it on, we won't be naked. Good News Translation by being clothed with it we shall not be without a body. International Standard Version Of course, if we do put it on, we will not be found without a body. NET Bible if indeed, after we have put on our heavenly house, we will not be found naked. New Heart English Bible since, after we have put it on, we will not be found naked. Webster's Bible Translation If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Weymouth New Testament if indeed having really put on a robewe shall not be found to be unclothed. Majority Text Translations​ Majority Standard Bible because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. World English Bible if indeed being clothed, we will not be found naked. Literal Translations​ Literal Standard Version if so be that, having clothed ourselves, we will not be found naked, Berean Literal Bible if indeed also having been clothed, we will not be found naked. Young's Literal Translation if so be that, having clothed ourselves, we shall not be found naked, Smith's Literal Translation If also being even clothed we shall not be found naked. Catholic Translations​ Douay-Rheims Bible Yet so that we be found clothed, not naked. Catholic Public Domain Version If we are so clothed, then we will not be found to be naked. New American Bible if indeed, when we have taken it off, we shall not be found naked. New Revised Standard Version if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. Translations from Aramaic​ Lamsa Bible If not so, even when we are clothed, we will still be naked. Aramaic Bible in Plain English If also whenever we are clothed we shall not be found naked. NT Translations​ Anderson New Testament since, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. Godbey New Testament if indeed having been invested, we shall not be found unclothed. Haweis New Testament that so invested, we may not be found naked. Mace New Testament tho' should I be divested of this body, I shall not even then be destitute of one. Weymouth New Testament if indeed having really put on a robe we shall not be found to be unclothed. Worrell New Testament if, indeed, being also clothed, we will not be found naked. Worsley New Testament yet we shall not be found naked. Additional Translations ...​

​

 

[FreeInChrist]

What you quoted talks of leaving our existing bodies and having a new "body" that is from heaven. That happens when we all die at different times throughout history.

That existing body from heaven will be clothed in the physical body of the bodily Resurrection in the future.

It is not difficult to understand at all. No. I do not believe that Paul was a simpleton. Never even implied it.

The body will be raised incorruptible.

1Co 15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

When YOU or I die, "Death IS NOT swallowed up in victory". Our sons and daughters will still die. Our wives and husbands will still die.

You're teaching false doctrine when you conflate these separate events. Doesn't matter who you are or what you claim. It is wrong.

So you and Jim agree that in eternity future we will only be spirits.... because I prove that wrong, does not make me wrong.

 

[Jim]

So you and Jim agree that in eternity future we will only be spirits.... because I prove that wrong, does not make me wrong.

You didn't prove anything wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you and Jim agree that in eternity future we will only be spirits.... because I prove that wrong, does not make me wrong.

No. You and I are probably not understanding one another.

I believe completely in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ and all the saints of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You didn't prove anything wrong.

Php 3:21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.

 

[civic]

They did? Please reference where they died again. I'd like to read about it.



So if someone mimics this event, then you'll call them Christ? Be careful about what you're leading yourself to say.

Our lives have a beginning. We aren't abandoning our lives. Our "works follow us brother"......

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Paul spoke or being "known as we're known".

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

What does "face to face" mean to you?

Faceless without a face

 

[Doug Brents]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Nothing about forgetting or not remembering. It is important to remember. In fact, the Scriptures teach against forgetting where we came from.

Deu_24:18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

The word "remember" is found 214 times in the KJV and 237 times in the ESV of the Protestant Canon.

Absolutely we are to remember, during this life. But there is no need to remember beyond the resurrection. And while Rev 21:4 doesn't explicitly say that we will not remember, that is not the only verse I referenced.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah details the perspective of considering former events as if being "bound" to them. Having "memory" of former events is essential. If you do not remember where you came from, then from whence do you gather the complete context of gratitude?

The "nor come into mind" portion of Isa 65:17 is problematic.

Indeed it is for your point of view.

In the Greek witnesses, "mind" isn't referenced. The "heart" is.

“For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall by no means remember the former things, nor shall they at all come upon the heart.”

Rev 21 is referencing the fulfillment of Isa 65.

True enough, but that doesn't change the meaning of the passage.

I've heard your position over and over again throughout my life. I reject it. It is not the absence of knowledge or knowledge being removed from our minds. It the what that knowledge NOW means to us in the context of different circumstances.

I've heard people say they couldn't enough "heaven" if they knew/remembered certain things and my answer to that is.....

Just wait till you experience what God has prepared for us. You'll be surprised. Joy isn't the absence of pain.

True, joy is not the absence of pain. I endured the slow death of my late wife for seven years while she withered with colon cancer. But I was joyful throughout the pain because I knew her soul was safe in the arms of Christ.

But the new heavens and new Earth will have no death, no mourning, no sorrow, no pain, no sin, no darkness, etc. (Rev 21:4).

As far as the "body being a seed".........I can't imagine a "seed" bursting from the ground. Bone to bone brother. It is a large seed.

Read 1 Cor 15:35-49. God, through Paul, says it so well.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You didn't prove anything wrong.

Right.... Saul/Paul did.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10​

we will not be spirits without bodies

 

[FreeInChrist]

Php 3:21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.

Thank you PY. I was looking and did not see.

@Jim , we now have 2 that says there will be bodies.... and this says glorious.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Absolutely we are to remember, during this life. But there is no need to remember beyond the resurrection. And while Rev 21:4 doesn't explicitly say that we will not remember, that is not the only verse I referenced.

Which one is it? There is plenty of need to remember beyond the Resurrection.

Will God forget too? Do you serious believe what you did for God in this life will be forgotten? We have a promise that our works will be remembered.

Indeed it is for your point of view.

True enough, but that doesn't change the meaning of the passage.

It changes the application. I explained why.

True, joy is not the absence of pain. I endured the slow death of my late wife for seven years while she withered with colon cancer. But I was joyful throughout the pain because I knew her soul was safe in the arms of Christ.

I bet she was gracious in her suffering. Such is glorious brother. A glorious revelation of character. To live is Christ. To show forth grace in suffering is precious to God.

But the new heavens and new Earth will have no death, no mourning, no sorrow, no pain, no sin, no darkness, etc. (Rev 21:4).

Read 1 Cor 15:35-49. God, through Paul, says it so well.

I've read it many times before. Preached from it. Taught from it. I know what it says.

There be no circumstances that bring forth mourning or pain or sin or darkness. It doesn't mean that such will be forgot.

A mother remembers her pain but what it brought forth makes it meaningful. She just doesn't focus on the pain anymore for the joy that is right before her.

 

[Doug Brents]

Which one is it? There is plenty of need to remember beyond the Resurrection.

Will God forget too? Do you serious believe what you did for God in this life will be forgotten? We have a promise that our works will be remembered.

All I know about Heaven is what is written in Scripture.

It changes the application. I explained why.

Ok, whatever you say.

I've read it many times before. Preached from it. Taught from it. I know what it says.

There be no circumstances that bring forth mourning or pain or sin or darkness. It doesn't mean that such will be forgot.

Does memory of sorrow not bring forth present sorrow? Does memory of pain not bring forth present pain? Do you remember what it was like to be a sperm; when you lived a short life, in a small world, whose only goal was to form a relationship with the egg, that would take you from that world to a world where you would be given a new name, and form a relationship with your father? (my brother is writing an allegory about this, and it is a compelling concept, think through it). But you don't remember any of your life as a sperm. Why do you think that we would remember any of this life? It is just as transient in comparison to eternity as a sperms life is in comparison to this one.

A mother remembers her pain but what it brought forth makes it meaningful. She just doesn't focus on the pain anymore for the joy that is right before her.

One last time, it doesn't matter, and is not worth arguing over. All I know about Heaven is what is written in Scripture. And as I have pointed out, it says that the things of this life won't be brought to mind/heart. That is enough for me.

 

[Jim]

Thank you PY. I was looking and did not see.

@Jim , we now have 2 that says there will be bodies.... and this says glorious.

And what body is that?

 

[FreeInChrist]

And what body is that?

Jim, my brother..... I pray that when we are both in eternity together that I do get to meet you and then I will simply point to you and say "that body".

I gave you near 42 scriptures that talk of specifically a body after death to the coverings to keep from being naked. Now if you have a favorite afghan ( wrap, not person) be buried with it for that may suffice to cover your self whe it is needed....

Why would a covering be needed if one is a spirit?

Horses are mentioned in the Bible in the context of heaven in Revelation 19:11, where it describes Jesus riding a white horse, and the armies of heaven following Him on white horses as well.

Would a body be needed to ride a horse? Yes or No?