Heaven is a real place

[Doug Brents]

Daniel 3:24-25 [NASB]
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up quickly; he said to his counselors, "Was it not three men [that] we threw bound into the middle of the fire?" They replied to the king, "Absolutely, O king." 25 He responded, "Look! I see four men untied [and] walking about in the middle of the fire unharmed, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of [the] gods!"

• God the Son had a body before Jesus was born.

Was that Jesus? There is nothing in the text that says that it was. Angels frequently had an appearance of glory and majesty in the OT. Nebuchadnezzar. a pagan, was not saying that the fourth man was THE "Son of God". He said he APPEARED like a "son of the gods" (emphasis on the lower case and plural form of "gods").

Genesis 18:1-21 [NASB]
1 Now the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw [them,] he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 "Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, so that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant." And they said, "So do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead [it,] and make bread cakes." 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave [it] to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set [it] before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, "Where is your wife Sarah?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, am I to have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 But the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I actually give birth [to a child,] when I am [so] old?' 14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied [it,] however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him." 20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 "I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me [indicates;] and if not, I will know."

• God the Son had a body before Jesus was born.

Again, there is no evidence here that this is Jesus (although there are many who think that it is). This is three angels from God, speaking with God's voice, and acting in His name (a frequent occurrence in Scripture).

 

[civic]

Was that Jesus? There is nothing in the text that says that it was. Angels frequently had an appearance of glory and majesty in the OT. Nebuchadnezzar. a pagan, was not saying that the fourth man was THE "Son of God". He said he APPEARED like a "son of the gods" (emphasis on the lower case and plural form of "gods").

Again, there is no evidence here that this is Jesus (although there are many who think that it is). This is three angels from God, speaking with God's voice, and acting in His name (a frequent occurrence in Scripture).

wow so you think its ok to worship created angels ?

the "angel of the Lord" who appeared to men in the O.T. and identified as YHWH and was worshipped is no other than the Pre-Incarnate Son. Jesus said no man has seen the Father or heard His voice. So the angel was not the Father who dwells in unapproachable light.

Like I said previously your Christology and Theology is off regarding the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ. Its heterodox, not orthodox/biblical. You and @Jim are in the exact same boat in those departments as this thread has revealed.

 

[Doug Brents]

wow so you think its ok to worship created angels ?

No, Abraham did recognized that these were messengers from God. He was not worshiping them, but, as it says in verse 22, the men went away (all three of them) but Abraham was still standing before the Lord. His worship was directed to God (in Heaven) and not the men (angels) who had stood before him.

the "angel of the Lord" who appeared to men in the O.T. and identified as YHWH and was worshipped is no other than the Pre-Incarnate Son. Jesus said no man has seen the Father or heard His voice. So the angel was not the Father who dwells in unapproachable light.

It is your opinion that one of these angels was the preincarnate Christ. But there is nothing in Scripture that states that definitively. Yes, there are man theologians who believe that, but there are an equal number of equally well studied theologians who do not. This is not a hill to be staking your soul on.

Like I said previously your Christology and Theology is off regarding the Trinity and the 2 natures in Christ. Its heterodox, not orthodox/biblical. You and @Jim are in the exact same boat in those departments as this thread has revealed.

Thank you for your condemnatory opinion. I cannot speak for Jim, but I can see that my understanding of who and what Christ is differs from what you believe, but that does not make it wrong.

If, in order to be "orthodox", I must make absolute statements about things that are not made absolute in Scripture, then I will gladly accept your charge of being heterodox.

 

[civic]

No, Abraham did recognized that these were messengers from God. He was not worshiping them, but, as it says in verse 22, the men went away (all three of them) but Abraham was still standing before the Lord. His worship was directed to God (in Heaven) and not the men (angels) who had stood before him.

It is your opinion that one of these angels was the preincarnate Christ. But there is nothing in Scripture that states that definitively. Yes, there are man theologians who believe that, but there are an equal number of equally well studied theologians who do not. This is not a hill to be staking your soul on.

Thank you for your condemnatory opinion. I cannot speak for Jim, but I can see that my understanding of who and what Christ is differs from what you believe, but that does not make it wrong.

If, in order to be "orthodox", I must make absolute statements about things that are not made absolute in Scripture, then I will gladly accept your charge of being heterodox.

The angel of the Lord was worshipped by several of Gods chosen in the OT.

Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW)



Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.
Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.
Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

Again, there is no evidence here that this is Jesus (although there are many who think that it is). This is three angels from God, speaking with God's voice, and acting in His name (a frequent occurrence in Scripture).

I think a closer reading will show otherwise. Let me shift the emphasis since we are making a different point:

Genesis 18:1-21 [NASB]
1 Now the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

• LORD means YHVH, not angels ... so at least 1 of the 3 men was the LORD (YHVH).

2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw [them,] he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 "Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, so that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant." And they said, "So do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead [it,] and make bread cakes." 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave [it] to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set [it] before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, "Where is your wife Sarah?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, am I to have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 But the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I actually give birth [to a child,] when I am [so] old?'

• LORD means YHVH ... so the "man" speaking to Abraham was the LORD (YHVH) and not an angel.

14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied [it,] however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,

• The LORD (YHVH) spoke and used the first person "I", demonstrating this was GOD and not someone representing God.
• Note that the pronoun is first-person, singular ... only one "YHVH" was present (this is one of the few times God uses a singular pronoun for himself. Does this suggest that only one "person" of the Trinity was present rather than the full GODHEAD?

18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

• Note that the speaker "I" (first person singular) had chosen Abraham ... who chose Abraham? YHVH chose Abraham.
• Note that the LORD (YHVH) would bring ... GOD (plural)
• The speaker is the singular manifestation of GOD (plural) ... That would be God the Son post incarnation.

20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 "I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me [indicates;] and if not, I will know."

• To whom do prayers go ... an angel or God?
• The recipient of these prayers is going to Sodom and Gomorrah to see first hand and judge ... God the Son is the Judge of men.

At least one of the three "men" is YHVH (God the Son), who speaks with Abraham and Sarah, hears prayers, and goes to pass judgement. It is only my speculation at this point, but the other two are likely angels (based on the rest of the story to come).

 

[Doug Brents]

The angel of the Lord was worshipped by several of Gods chosen in the OT.

Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW)



Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.
Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.
Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

All of these are great examples of Angels speaking with God's voice, and standing in the place of God as ambassadors and emissaries. But none of them depicts God as standing before the men mentioned.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

Yes, the messenger of God can, if commanded to by God, make an oath for God. An oath made by a messenger (angel) is not binding on God if God is not the one authorizing it. But it is clear from Hebrews that God was behind the oath given to Abraham.

 

[Doug Brents]

I think a closer reading will show otherwise. Let me shift the emphasis since we are making a different point:

Genesis 18:1-21 [NASB]
1 Now the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

• LORD means YHVH, not angels ... so at least 1 of the 3 men was the LORD (YHVH).

That is not correct. The Lord God can appear to man through His angels, and has done so many times. Jesus was unique in all history, for in Him is the ONLY time that God Himself has appeared to man in human form. All other instances where God dealt with mankind (except maybe for when He walked with Adam before the Fall) was through angelic agency.

2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw [them,] he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 "Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, so that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant." And they said, "So do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead [it,] and make bread cakes." 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave [it] to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set [it] before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, "Where is your wife Sarah?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, am I to have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 But the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I actually give birth [to a child,] when I am [so] old?'

• LORD means YHVH ... so the "man" speaking to Abraham was the LORD (YHVH) and not an angel.

14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied [it,] however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,

• The LORD (YHVH) spoke and used the first person "I", demonstrating this was GOD and not someone representing God.
• Note that the pronoun is first-person, singular ... only one "YHVH" was present (this is one of the few times God uses a singular pronoun for himself. Does this suggest that only one "person" of the Trinity was present rather than the full GODHEAD?

18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

• Note that the speaker "I" (first person singular) had chosen Abraham ... who chose Abraham? YHVH chose Abraham.
• Note that the LORD (YHVH) would bring ... GOD (plural)
• The speaker is the singular manifestation of GOD (plural) ... That would be God the Son post incarnation.

20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 "I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me [indicates;] and if not, I will know."

• To whom do prayers go ... an angel or God?
• The recipient of these prayers is going to Sodom and Gomorrah to see first hand and judge ... God the Son is the Judge of men.

At least one of the three "men" is YHVH (God the Son), who speaks with Abraham and Sarah, hears prayers, and goes to pass judgement. It is only my speculation at this point, but the other two are likely angels (based on the rest of the story to come).

 

[Jim]

not at all nice try just seeing if it pulls the same historical information which it did.

so you are smarter than AI now ?

is your IQ at 180 ?

remember 140 is genius.

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!

Why would you post that? Is AI smart? What is your definition of smart?

 

[Jim]

you should since they have everything about Jesus wrong.

They being who? So now your the only one of all of those other ones who has it right about Jesus? A little egotism showing its ugly head?

 

[civic]

They being who? So now your the only one of all of those other ones who has it right about Jesus? A little egotism showing its ugly head?

Jehovah Witnesses

 

[Jim]

Jehovah Witnesses

OK.

 

[atpollard]

That is not correct. The Lord God can appear to man through His angels, and has done so many times. Jesus was unique in all history, for in Him is the ONLY time that God Himself has appeared to man in human form. All other instances where God dealt with mankind (except maybe for when He walked with Adam before the Fall) was through angelic agency.

Verse supporting these claims, please?

 

[Doug Brents]

Verse supporting these claims, please?

Heb 2:2
Acts 7:53
Gal 3:19
Dan 8-9
Exo 3:2
Luke 1:19
Matt 1:20-21

1 Tim 3:16

 

[civic]

Heb 2:2
Acts 7:53
Gal 3:19
Dan 8-9
Exo 3:2
Luke 1:19
Matt 1:20-21

1 Tim 3:16

one big RED FLAG

angels are forbidden to be worshiped since thats idolatry- that is for God alone and we know that the unique " Angel of the Lord " in the O.T. was worshipped on many occasions and identified as YHWH.

 

[Doug Brents]

one big RED FLAG

angels are forbidden to be worshiped since thats idolatry- that is for God alone and we know that the unique " Angel of the Lord " in the O.T. was worshipped on many occasions and identified as YHWH.

As is fairly clear from the context when the three angels met with Abraham, Abraham was worshiping God, not the angels. Just as the priests worshiped God, and not the Ark, or the alter, or the Temple. And Moses worshiped God, not the bush or the ground around it, even though God told him to remove his shoes because it was "holy ground".

Any time an angel was worshiped because of who/what the angel was, it refused the worship (as indicated in Rev 19:10 and 22:9). But when the worship is directed at God, then the angel (like the temple, alter, Ark, etc.) is just a conduit of that worship and not the object of devotion.

 

[civic]

As is fairly clear from the context when the three angels met with Abraham, Abraham was worshiping God, not the angels. Just as the priests worshiped God, and not the Ark, or the alter, or the Temple. And Moses worshiped God, not the bush or the ground around it, even though God told him to remove his shoes because it was "holy ground".

Any time an angel was worshiped because of who/what the angel was, it refused the worship (as indicated in Rev 19:10 and 22:9). But when the worship is directed at God, then the angel (like the temple, alter, Ark, etc.) is just a conduit of that worship and not the object of devotion.

please quote this encounter with abraham with a biblical reference. thanks

and where does the text say Abraham worshiped these angels ?

and where is the "angel of the Lord" in the passage ?