Heaven is a real place

The Holy Spirit
"After He was baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and settling on Him" Matt 3:16

Did the Spirit take the bodily form of a dove? Or did the Spirit simply descend in the way that a dove does? I believe it to be the latter. In the same way, He descended upon the Apostles on Pentecost in the appearance of, but not actual, fire.
there was a visible form that John the Baptist could see. we do not know what that was but it was like a dove.

this is from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

like a dove, and lighting upon him—Luke says, "in a bodily shape" (Lu 3:22); that is, the blessed Spirit, assuming the corporeal form of a dove, descended thus upon His sacred head. But why in this form? The Scripture use of this emblem will be our best guide here. "My dove, my undefiled is one," says the Song of Solomon (So 6:9). This is chaste purity. Again, "Be ye harmless as doves," says Christ Himself (Mt 10:16). This is the same thing, in the form of inoffensiveness towards men. "A conscience void of offense toward God and toward men" (Ac 24:16) expresses both. Further, when we read in the Song of Solomon (So 2:14), "O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rocks, in the secret places of the stairs (see Isa 60:8), let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely"—it is shrinking modesty, meekness, gentleness, that is thus charmingly depicted. In a word—not to allude to the historical emblem of the dove that flew back to the ark, bearing in its mouth the olive leaf of peace (Ge 8:11)—when we read (Ps 68:13), "Ye shall be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold," it is beauteousness that is thus held forth. And was not such that "holy, harmless, undefiled One," the "separate from sinners?" "Thou art fairer than the children of men; grace is poured into Thy lips; therefore God hath blessed Thee for ever!" But the fourth Gospel gives us one more piece of information here, on the authority of one who saw and testified of it: "John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and IT ABODE UPON Him." And lest we should think that this was an accidental thing, he adds that this last particular was expressly given him as part of the sign by which he was to recognize and identify Him as the Son of God: "And I knew Him not: but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending AND REMAINING ON Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw and bare record that this is the Son of God" (Joh 1:32-34). And when with this we compare the predicted descent of the Spirit upon Messiah (Isa 11:2
Isaiah 11:2
2Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him:

the spirit of wisdom and understanding,

the spirit of counsel and might,

the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.

), "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him," we cannot doubt that it was this permanent and perfect resting of the Holy Ghost upon the Son of God—now and henceforward in His official capacity—that was here visibly manifested.
 
And I know you don't believe the Father or Holy Spirit took on any human form, that only the Son has in the O.T.
No, I don't believe that God (the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) took human form until Jesus was conceived in Mary. I do not believe that ANY of the "theophanies" or "christophanies" that many believe in were anything more than angels speaking with God's voice.
 
I never said that the Father took on human form. Not sure what you are arguing about here.
I was mentioning the distinctions. Some people tend to deny the metaphysical aspects of the physical form or the Father. Even Trinitarians do it.

Even if the Father took upon Himself the form of human being... just making the point that the experience of the Son was different.
 
No, I don't believe that God (the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) took human form until Jesus was conceived in Mary. I do not believe that ANY of the "theophanies" or "christophanies" that many believe in were anything more than angels speaking with God's voice.

That a very untenable position to take given evidence to the contrary.
 
That a very untenable position to take given evidence to the contrary.
Having read through Scripture cover to cover several times, and studying many aspects of it in much more depth many times, I see no evidence whatsoever of the physical manifestation of the Father, nor of the human manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
 
Having read through Scripture cover to cover several times, and studying many aspects of it in much more depth many times, I see no evidence whatsoever of the physical manifestation of the Father, nor of the human manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

How did the Father speak so the disciples could hear it in????

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

They heard the Father audibly in their own language. Does that "speak" to "material form" to you at all?
 
Is voice material? I'm miles down the road from you on this topic. I enjoy the topic. Lets keep going.

1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
The voice is not God. The sound is caused by the movement of the air, but (in the case of God) that does not necessitate a physical source of the sound.
 
The voice is not God. The sound is caused by the movement of the air, but (in the case of God) that does not necessitate a physical source of the sound.

So the words of God aren't Him?

Voice is more than air movement. "Passing gas" is air movement.....

Voice represents thoughts. They are manifestation of Character and Essence. They ARE literally the "Great I AM" in revelation to the hearer.
 
So the words of God aren't Him?

Voice is more than air movement. "Passing gas" is air movement.....

Voice represents thoughts. They are manifestation of Character and Essence. They ARE literally the "Great I AM" in revelation to the hearer.
Are you your voice? Are you the words you type here? No.

God is not the sound of His voice. The vibrations in the air caused by His power are nothing more than that. If you want to reduce God down to vibrations in the air that He created, have fun with that.
 
Are you your voice? Are you the words you type here? No.

God is not the sound of His voice. The vibrations in the air caused by His power are nothing more than that. If you want to reduce God down to vibrations in the air that He created, have fun with that.

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere.

I am what I type here. I am true to what I do. There is no pretense to me. I'm not some character that changes based what I want to portray.

The very nature and essence of God is all wrapped in these Characteristics you're trying not to deal with.

As I said. "Voice" is more than just "vibrations". It comes from the heart. It flows through all things we do. Same is true of God.

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

You should go deeper into this and not be so dismissive to be true to your traditions. What you choice will be what you are.

You're making an argument that you don't realize you're making. Your only possible defense against what I've said is relative to claims of anthropomorphism.

I'm ready for it. I don't think you're the one to actually do well in this discussion..... but surprise me.

Do you deny that nature teaches? Do you learn from nature?
 
Having read through Scripture cover to cover several times, and studying many aspects of it in much more depth many times, I see no evidence whatsoever of the physical manifestation of the Father, nor of the human manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
The Son manifested Himself physically several times in the OT.
 
Ah. Now we're getting somewhere.

I am what I type here. I am true to what I do. There is no pretense to me. I'm not some character that changes based what I want to portray.
I didn't say that you change what you say, or that you change what you are. I asked if you are your voice? You are not your voice. You are the spirit that lives within the tent of your body (2 Cor 5:1).
The very nature and essence of God is all wrapped in these Characteristics you're trying not to deal with.

As I said. "Voice" is more than just "vibrations". It comes from the heart. It flows through all things we do. Same is true of God.
Your voice is a manifestation of what you are, it is not YOU! Nor is the voice of God, God.
Do you deny that nature teaches? Do you learn from nature?
Certainly we can learn about God through nature, but nature is not God. Nature is created, I worship the Creator.
 
I didn't say that you change what you say, or that you change what you are. I asked if you are your voice? You are not your voice. You are the spirit that lives within the tent of your body (2 Cor 5:1).

I answered you. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. In realty, you can't. You've created a hard division between what you say and what you are. There is no division in such.

They are ONE within the Godhead. The entirety of God speaks with a "singular voice". They don't say things contrary to one another. I can tell you've never really embraced any of this in your studies. You're not prepared for this topic.

Your voice is a manifestation of what you are, it is not YOU! Nor is the voice of God, God.

I know you think that God isn't what He says. God's voice isn't Eternal. It is really troublesome position for you. That is what theological nonsense gets you. Divisions that do not exist.

I mean seriously. You've been so accustom in your life to separating what you say from what you are, that you can't even begin to reconcile that you have a real problem with pretending. We all do at one time or another. Such is not so with God.

Certainly we can learn about God through nature, but nature is not God. Nature is created, I worship the Creator.

That is a little better. Is love found in nature?
 
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It is not stated clearly in Scripture, so I will not stake my soul on the truth or untruth of that statement. It is your opinion, and the opinion of many within the Church. But it is not universal, nor is it even the majority opinion so far as I can tell.

Sure it does.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
I answered you. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. In realty, you can't. You've created a hard division between what you say and what you. There is no division in such.

They are ONE within the Godhead. The entirety of God speaks with a "singular voice". They don't say things contrary to one another. I can tell you've never really embraced any of this in your studies. You're not prepared for this topic.
Of course God does not contradict Himself. But what God (the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit) says is not God. Do you worship the Bible? If you do, then you worship an idol. The Bible is not God, even though it is the words God has spoken.
I know you think that God isn't what He says. God's voice isn't Eternal. It is really troublesome position for you. That is what theological nonsense gets you. Divisions that do not exist.

I mean seriously. You've been so accustom in your life to separating what you say from what you are, that you can't even begin to reconcile that you have a real problem with pretending.
That is a little better. Is love found in nature?
No. Love is not found in nature. Love is both an emotion and a choice. Love can only be found in beings with a living spirit.
 
Sure it does.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Before Jesus birth He was with God in Heaven. That does not mean that He was manifest on Earth as a man before He was born to Mary.
 
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