Doug Brents
Active Member
Even false doctrines get some things right once in a while. Just look at the catholic cult.
Heaven is a real place
- Thread starter civic
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civic
Active Member
AI has the biblical view as does Got Questions, myself and most every Christian on this board. Its the historical view held since the Apostles, their disciples, the ECF's, the Reformers etc........
civic
Active Member
nope the JW's have Jesus all wrong.
civic
Active Member
What did the Apostles disciples believe ? They were taught by them personally.
Ignatius- For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.
Polycarp hammers home the vital importance of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, his bodily resurrection. The fundamental Christian hope, after all, isn’t that we “fly away to heaven” as spirits after we die. It is that since Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, his material body resurrected and transformed into a new kind of life, that Christians too, though they will die, will one day resurrect just as Jesus was. The Christian hope is thus one of a resurrected and transformed material creation. And that is why Gnosticism and Docetism (a form of Gnosticism that denied Jesus had actually come in the flesh) was considered heretical. Polycarp goes so far to say that anyone who denies that Jesus had come in the flesh was actually anti-Christ.
Justin Martyr, AD 110-165
Tertullian
Ignatius- For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.
Polycarp hammers home the vital importance of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, his bodily resurrection. The fundamental Christian hope, after all, isn’t that we “fly away to heaven” as spirits after we die. It is that since Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, his material body resurrected and transformed into a new kind of life, that Christians too, though they will die, will one day resurrect just as Jesus was. The Christian hope is thus one of a resurrected and transformed material creation. And that is why Gnosticism and Docetism (a form of Gnosticism that denied Jesus had actually come in the flesh) was considered heretical. Polycarp goes so far to say that anyone who denies that Jesus had come in the flesh was actually anti-Christ.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Notice what Justin said. I KNOW He had a physical body after His resurrection, and I BELIEVE He has one now. He didn't say that He is sure. He didn't say that it is Biblical fact. He said He believes it is so.
Ignatius says the same as Justin, almost word for word.
Certainly He had flesh after His resurrection, just as He had before His resurrection. But again, there is nothing in Scripture that says He has Flesh in Heaven.
Again, I am not claiming in any way that Jesus was not resurrected bodily, that He did not have a physical body for the 40 days He spent with the disciples after His resurrection. I am not claiming that in any way! Polycarp was quoting Scripture when he said that anyone who denies that Jesus had come in the flesh was anti-Christ (1 John 4:2-3). But that does not mean that He has a physical body after He ascended to Heaven .
civic
Active Member
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
the biblical doctrine , historical doctrine and orthodox doctrine/ position of the church has always been that the Incarnation was permanent and the 2 natures in Christ have been joined together eternally never to be separated. He is forever both God and man, human and Divine anyways having a physical human body. This has not changed since His birth , death, Ascension, future 2nd Coming and for all eternity. Forever as the Bible says: God manifest in the flesh
Doug Brents
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Jesus us talking about the Father in John 4:24.
Another misused verse ripped from its context =eisegesis
John 1:1 is not Jesus, that’s his birth name as a human.
It’s the Word in John 1:1.
1 Timothy 2:5 does not say Jesus is God. More assumptions and eisegesis
Oh my. You are getting your theology from AI now? You will find that depending upon how you ask the question, you can get just about any answer you want from AI.
Try asking AI the question, "How and when did the light first appear in the universe?" I don't think you will like the answer.
@civic, I really don't care what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I don't really care what Roman Catholics believe either. I don't really care what Episcopalians believe either. Or Lutherans. Or Baptists. Or,,,Or....Or....
But I am quite certain that most of those other "denominations" are correct in some of their theological positions while at the same time, like you, are incorrect of some other positions.
Doug Brents
Active Member
John 4:24 is talking about God, not just the Father. It doesn't say "the Father is Spirit". It says, "God is Spirit". And Jesus is God also.
John 1:1 is talking about the Word. The Word is Jesus and Jesus is the Word. They are inseparable.
1 Tim 2:5 You are right, this passage does not say that Jesus is God. But there are many other passages that do (John 1:1-3, 14 for example). And these passages are not in isolation from the rest of Scripture. All Scripture is one united whole, meaning that a truth found in one place in Scripture is still a truth in another place in Scripture. Jesus is God, and Jesus is the mediator between God and man, thus God is His own mediator.
civic
Active Member
wrong Jesus is not spirit, He is human and divine. He was just spirit like the Father and Holy Spirit before the Incarnation. He is forever both God and man since the Incarnation.
your Christology and Theology are wrong regarding the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union.
Hypostatic Union- The 2 Natures in Christ
1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)
2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)
3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus, the Divine Son who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature. The Creed of Chalcedon declares that : “in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation, the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one persona and one subsistence, not parted or divided into two person, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).
5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)
6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)
Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).
We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.
Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices.
hope this helps !!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
Heb 13:5 - "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever."
Jesus was Spirit when He was with God at Creation. He was not flesh. He took on flesh when He lived as a man for 33 years. But His essence did not change. He was always Spirit, even while wearing a body of flesh (just as you are a spirit within a body (tent) of flesh (2 Cor 5:1)). His earthly, fleshly body was temporary, just as ours is.
civic
Active Member
let me know when you can quote scripture correctly
Hebrews 13:8- Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
civic
Active Member
Hebrews 13:8 for the readers
How far back does this ‘yesterday’ go? The limit must be found by observing that it is ‘Jesus Christ’ who is spoken of - that is to say, the Incarnate Saviour. That observation disposes of the reference of these words to the past eternity in which the eternal Word of God was what He is to-day. The sameness that is referred to here is neither the sameness of the divine Son from all eternity, nor the sameness of the medium of revelation in both the old and the new dispensations, but the sameness of the human Christ to all generations of His followers. And the epoch referred to in the ‘yesterday’ is defined more closely if we observe the previous context, which speaks of the dying teachers who have had the rule and have passed away. The ‘yesterday’ is the period of these departed teachers; the ‘to-day’ is the period of the writer and his readers. Maclearon
"Jesus Christ is the same," etc. But even thus the real point of the statement is missed. No doubt the old teachers believed in the unchangeableness of Jesus Christ; but that fact is not represented as the subject of their faith, which would be irrelevant and somewhat flat. The emphatic point of the statement is Christ. They lived and died in the faith that Jesus is The Christ - the Messiah. The readers were tempted to surrender this faith and to return to Judaism which denied Jesus's messiahship (comp. Hebrews 10:29). Hence the writer says, "hold fast and imitate their faith in Jesus as the Christ. He is ever the same. He must be to you, today, what he was to them, yesterday, and will be forever to the heavenly hosts - Christ. Rend. therefore "Jesus is Christ." Observe that our writer rarely uses the formula Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 10:10 it occurs in a passage in which the messianic mission of Jesus is emphasized (see Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 10:9), and in Hebrews 13:21, in a liturgical formula. The temptation to forsake Jesus as Messiah is treated in the next verse.vincent
hope this helps !!!
How far back does this ‘yesterday’ go? The limit must be found by observing that it is ‘Jesus Christ’ who is spoken of - that is to say, the Incarnate Saviour. That observation disposes of the reference of these words to the past eternity in which the eternal Word of God was what He is to-day. The sameness that is referred to here is neither the sameness of the divine Son from all eternity, nor the sameness of the medium of revelation in both the old and the new dispensations, but the sameness of the human Christ to all generations of His followers. And the epoch referred to in the ‘yesterday’ is defined more closely if we observe the previous context, which speaks of the dying teachers who have had the rule and have passed away. The ‘yesterday’ is the period of these departed teachers; the ‘to-day’ is the period of the writer and his readers. Maclearon
"Jesus Christ is the same," etc. But even thus the real point of the statement is missed. No doubt the old teachers believed in the unchangeableness of Jesus Christ; but that fact is not represented as the subject of their faith, which would be irrelevant and somewhat flat. The emphatic point of the statement is Christ. They lived and died in the faith that Jesus is The Christ - the Messiah. The readers were tempted to surrender this faith and to return to Judaism which denied Jesus's messiahship (comp. Hebrews 10:29). Hence the writer says, "hold fast and imitate their faith in Jesus as the Christ. He is ever the same. He must be to you, today, what he was to them, yesterday, and will be forever to the heavenly hosts - Christ. Rend. therefore "Jesus is Christ." Observe that our writer rarely uses the formula Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 10:10 it occurs in a passage in which the messianic mission of Jesus is emphasized (see Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 10:9), and in Hebrews 13:21, in a liturgical formula. The temptation to forsake Jesus as Messiah is treated in the next verse.vincent
hope this helps !!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
My apologies. I fat-fingered the citation.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Talk about eisegesis. That is reading into the passage what you want to find there to make it fit with your preconception. Jesus is the Word of God (Logos) that was God and was with God at Creation. Jesus is the Spirit of God who dwells within us (Gal 2:20).
atpollard
Active Member
Daniel 3:24-25 [NASB]
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up quickly; he said to his counselors, "Was it not three men [that] we threw bound into the middle of the fire?" They replied to the king, "Absolutely, O king." 25 He responded, "Look! I see four men untied [and] walking about in the middle of the fire unharmed, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of [the] gods!"
- God the Son had a body before Jesus was born.
Genesis 18:1-21 [NASB]
1 Now the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw [them,] he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed down to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 "Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and make yourselves comfortable under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, so that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant." And they said, "So do as you have said." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, "Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead [it,] and make bread cakes." 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave [it] to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set [it] before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.
9 Then they said to him, "Where is your wife Sarah?" And he said, "There, in the tent." 10 He said, "I will certainly return to you at this time next year; and behold, your wife Sarah will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, am I to have pleasure, my lord being old also?" 13 But the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I actually give birth [to a child,] when I am [so] old?' 14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Sarah denied [it,] however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will certainly become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him." 20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 "I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me [indicates;] and if not, I will know."
- God the Son had a body before Jesus was born.
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