Heaven is a real place
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
If you think that then you have not followed what I have posted very well. But no matter, I am not interested in being orthodox; rather I am concerned with being biblically correct. With all due respect @civic, it is your beliefs that, while some perhaps being orthodox, are incorrect regarding the Incarnation, the 2nd Coming, heaven, new heavens/earth and many other doctrines. You seem to be pretty close regarding soteriology.
civic
Active Member
I'm sorry but the literal physical bodily Resurrection/Ascension of Jesus effects everything I mentioned most importsantly the gospel and salvation.
If Christ is not raised from the dead then you have some serious problems according to the bible.
1 Corinthians 15:14-18
And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Peter 1:21
Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God.
Acts 2:24
But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep Him in its grip.
Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
conclusion: if Christ is not raised, ascended bodily one is still dead in their sins, not saved, not justified, no newness of life etc...
hope this helps !!!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
An opinion. MINE. On will we be in body or only spiritual in the end. I AM REFERRING ONLY TO BELIEVERS.........!!!!
Scripture does indicate that the spirits of believers are in heaven NOW.
Before the resurrection, believers are with God in spirit. And before you ask me what I mean by this resurrection I will explain before going on.
When I said “before the resurrection, believers are with God in spirit,” I was referring to what theologians call the intermediate state ..... the period between a believer’s death and the final resurrection.
You see... by careful study... there are two stages after death.
1. At death The body dies and the spirit goes to God.
This is actually told to us in Eccl 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
2.At Christ's return The body is raised and transformed
So you see, believers are with Christ after death. But they are not yet resurrected. They are alive without their glorified bodies.
The Bible does not teach that our final state is being a spirit in heaven forever.
Paul says “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (2 Cor 5:8)
This must be understood above all...... You simply can’t be bodily in the grave and also with the Lord ...unless your spirit goes to Him.
The Bible furthers this when it says in Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
“The spirits of the righteous made perfect” are in heaven.
(Hebrews 12:23)
Not of angels. Not of metaphors. But of Human spirits.
When Jesus said to the thief in Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." The thief's body went into a grave, While he went to God.
Again Paul confirms in 2 Cor 5:8 "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord '.
You can’t be bodily in the grave and also with the Lord.... unless your spirit goes to Him.
So what does that mean for our bodies that have been turning back to dust in the ground, or wherever?
Let's look and see.
Jesus is NOT merely " a spirit ."
After His resurrection Jesus has ....
.... A real body!
....A real soul !
.... A real human spirit!
....And the eternal divine nature!
This surely should convince anyone that Jesus was never merely a man.
Jesus is not a spirit only, but He absolutely has a spirit.
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
You cannot give up something you do not have!!!!
So now we really need to know about the two-stage life after death BEACUSE THAT AFFECTS US ALL.
HERE IS THE BIBLICAL ORDER OF THINGS
1. Death =
Our Body to the Grave
Our Spirit to be with Christ
2. Resurrection =
Our spirit + glorified body reunited.
3. Eternal life in the new creation =
Heaven right now is intermediate. The final state is bodily. that is exactly what Revelation, Paul, and Jesus all teach
The Holy Bible teaches both conscious spirits are with God now... then we will get our glorified bodies forever later.
Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and this says heaven contains “the spirits of the righteous made perfect,” not just angels.
Jesus and Stephen both committed their spirits to God at death (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59), proving conscious human spirits go to Him.
So now finishing up a small recap if I may
Jesus: “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
Stephen: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)
Paul: “To depart and be with Christ is far better.” (Phil 1:23)
IOW, on our death our spirit god back to our Heavenly Father's presence.
And our spirit is Conscious, Personal, With Christ, AND Waiting for our resurrection!!!!!!
Revelation 6:9–11 shows souls in heaven speaking, worshiping, and waiting for their bodies.
They are not asleep. They are not annihilated. They are not unconscious. They ARE alive with God.
Then comes our resurrection.
When Jesus returns: “God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.” (1 Thess 4:14)
Those spirits come back and are reunited with glorified bodies.
That is the final, permanent state.
And it is in this state that we have a "new" heavens and "new" earth.....
I could expound more on the spirit and its connection to the soul but that is actually a topic for another thread.... because it is not the soul that goes back to God, but the spirit.
Scripture does indicate that the spirits of believers are in heaven NOW.
Before the resurrection, believers are with God in spirit. And before you ask me what I mean by this resurrection I will explain before going on.
When I said “before the resurrection, believers are with God in spirit,” I was referring to what theologians call the intermediate state ..... the period between a believer’s death and the final resurrection.
You see... by careful study... there are two stages after death.
1. At death The body dies and the spirit goes to God.
This is actually told to us in Eccl 12:7 "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
2.At Christ's return The body is raised and transformed
So you see, believers are with Christ after death. But they are not yet resurrected. They are alive without their glorified bodies.
The Bible does not teach that our final state is being a spirit in heaven forever.
Paul says “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (2 Cor 5:8)
This must be understood above all...... You simply can’t be bodily in the grave and also with the Lord ...unless your spirit goes to Him.
The Bible furthers this when it says in Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
“The spirits of the righteous made perfect” are in heaven.
(Hebrews 12:23)
Not of angels. Not of metaphors. But of Human spirits.
When Jesus said to the thief in Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." The thief's body went into a grave, While he went to God.
Again Paul confirms in 2 Cor 5:8 "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord '.
You can’t be bodily in the grave and also with the Lord.... unless your spirit goes to Him.
So what does that mean for our bodies that have been turning back to dust in the ground, or wherever?
Let's look and see.
Jesus is NOT merely " a spirit ."
After His resurrection Jesus has ....
.... A real body!
....A real soul !
.... A real human spirit!
....And the eternal divine nature!
This surely should convince anyone that Jesus was never merely a man.
Jesus is not a spirit only, but He absolutely has a spirit.
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
You cannot give up something you do not have!!!!
So now we really need to know about the two-stage life after death BEACUSE THAT AFFECTS US ALL.
HERE IS THE BIBLICAL ORDER OF THINGS
1. Death =
Our Body to the Grave
Our Spirit to be with Christ
2. Resurrection =
Our spirit + glorified body reunited.
3. Eternal life in the new creation =
Heaven right now is intermediate. The final state is bodily. that is exactly what Revelation, Paul, and Jesus all teach
The Holy Bible teaches both conscious spirits are with God now... then we will get our glorified bodies forever later.
Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and this says heaven contains “the spirits of the righteous made perfect,” not just angels.
Jesus and Stephen both committed their spirits to God at death (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59), proving conscious human spirits go to Him.
So now finishing up a small recap if I may
Jesus: “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
Stephen: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59)
Paul: “To depart and be with Christ is far better.” (Phil 1:23)
IOW, on our death our spirit god back to our Heavenly Father's presence.
And our spirit is Conscious, Personal, With Christ, AND Waiting for our resurrection!!!!!!
Revelation 6:9–11 shows souls in heaven speaking, worshiping, and waiting for their bodies.
They are not asleep. They are not annihilated. They are not unconscious. They ARE alive with God.
Then comes our resurrection.
When Jesus returns: “God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.” (1 Thess 4:14)
Those spirits come back and are reunited with glorified bodies.
That is the final, permanent state.
And it is in this state that we have a "new" heavens and "new" earth.....
I could expound more on the spirit and its connection to the soul but that is actually a topic for another thread.... because it is not the soul that goes back to God, but the spirit.
Darby
Active Member
Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.
ACTS 9:8
How strange that Saul of Tarsus was blinded by the very light that would soon light up his life! Journeying toward Damascus to imprison Christians, Saul fell to the ground when a sudden light burst on him. It was the glorified Jesus, which gives us a wonderful picture of our Lord’s current appearance in the heavens.
Psalm 104 says that “the LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment” (verse 2). In 1 Timothy 6:16, we see that He dwells in unapproachable light. We read in Revelation 1 that, when John saw Him, “His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (verse 16). In the Eternal City, there will be no need for sun or moon, because the Lamb is its light.
By faith, we can walk in the light of His presence now. Psalm 34 describes believers: “They looked to Him and were radiant” (verse 5). We can visualize our glorified Jesus, seated on the throne of heaven, and reflect His light today.
I know that the light of His presence with me doth continually dwell.
FANNY CROSBY
David Jeremiah
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