He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Doug Brents]

It's a fact that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control. Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone.

We are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24). Without action faith is dead, and dead faith cannot save. Faith requires action, and it is in the action that salvation is received. This is not my idea. This is not my fabrication. This is God's command to anyone who wants to be His child.

That's the problem with insisting that it's necessary to be water baptized in order to be saved. You're taking a ritual that shows you've accepted Christ as your savior and turning it in to a works salvation.

Where is Scripture does it say that baptism is a "ritual that shows you've accepted Christ as your savior"? That concept is not in Scripture. It says in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 that it is during baptism that we receive salvation. During baptism is when the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and gives us union with Christ and resurrection from death.

 

[Doug Brents]

I believe you, I believe you're not aware that you're lifting up work salvation by believe in that you have to be baptized in water to be saved.

Salvation is not about certain steps we must follow to earn salvation. Yes, Christians should be baptized. Yes, Christians should publicly confess Christ as Savior. Yes, Christians should turn from sin. Yes, Christians should commit their lives to obeying God. However, these are not steps to salvation. They are results of salvation.

When you make those steps necessary for salvation it becomes a Works Salvation.

In Rom 10:9-10, which comes first, salvation or confession of Jesus as Lord? Which does Scripture say is the result, and which is the antecedent?

 

[Truther]

Ive shown you what I base my conviction on, you reject it obviously

Tried to base your conviction on scripture, please

 

[brightfame52]

Tried to base your conviction on scripture, please

Ive shown you what I base my conviction on, you reject it obviously

 

[Believe]

In Rom 10:9-10, which comes first, salvation or confession of Jesus as Lord? Which does Scripture say is the result, and which is the antecedent?

First God gave his son. Second we believe in him. As a result of that salvation is the public ceremony of water baptism. Baptism comes after salvation.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

 

[TomL]

Of course the Holy Spirit is involved in salvation, He is, after all, one who actually cuts our sin from us and makes us pure (Col 2:11-14). But man cannot cause the Holy Spirit to act. All we can do is do what God has told us to do and trust that He will do what He said He would do. Yes, it is by the Spirit that we are brought into one Body, and we drink of the One Spirit, but we do so during baptism in water, as 1 Pet 3:21 says, and Acts 22:16 demonstrates.

Sorry there was no water when the spirit acted here

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB 2020) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

or here

Acts 8:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

and this was after water baptism

And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

New American Standard Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 2020), Ac 19:6–7.

No, I am not ignoring the Spirit at all. John's baptism was the basis of baptism in the Church. The baptism with fire has only happened twice in all of Human history (with Cornelius and on Pentecost). That baptism is not the standard baptism for the NT Church. The baptism that is the standard in the NT Church is done by man (Matt 28:19), requires water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36), and is the one during which we receive salvation (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Sorry that is an assumption

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

all are baptised en the Spirit that are in the body

 

[TomL]

Dont have to appear for it to still be the Sheep, Sheep appeared in Jn 10, that laid the foundation as to who Jesus draws to Himself by His Death. When He says He must bring His Sheep in Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Well that's relatively the same as must draw in Jn 12:32

If you are not following someone, you are not that someone's sheep

 

[TomL]

Ive shown you what I base my conviction on, you reject it obviously

Sorry it never stated he was saved previous to meeting Peter and you ignore this contradiction to your theology

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

First God gave his son. Second we believe in him. As a result of that salvation is the public ceremony of water baptism. Baptism comes after salvation.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

That doesn't answer the question. I didn't ask about John 3:16, I asked about Rom 10:9-10. But I will ask a second question, please answer both this time: Is John 3:16 more important, more God's Word, more authoritative than Rom 10:9-10?

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry there was no water when the spirit acted here

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB 2020) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

The Gentiles in Cornelius' household were not saved when the Holy Spirit fell ON them; they were not indwelt by the Spirit when He gave to them the gift of tongues. They were indwelt by the Spirit when they were baptized and became part of the Body of Christ.

or here

Acts 8:14–17 (NASB 2020) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

These people had already been saved when they were baptized. They had the indwelling of the Spirit, but they did not have miraculous gifts.

Sorry that is an assumption

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

all are baptised en the Spirit that are in the body

You are separating into two events two things that happen at the same time. We are baptized into the Body of Christ through water baptism, and this is when the Holy Spirit removes our sins and comes to live in our heart. Baptism "en" the Spirit occurs during water baptism, not before.

 

[brightfame52]

If you are not following someone, you are not that someone's sheep

Dont have to appear for it to still be the Sheep, Sheep appeared in Jn 10, that laid the foundation as to who Jesus draws to Himself by His Death. When He says He must bring His Sheep in Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Well that's relatively the same as must draw in Jn 12:32

 

[Believe]

That doesn't answer the question. I didn't ask about John 3:16, I asked about Rom 10:9-10. But I will ask a second question, please answer both this time: Is John 3:16 more important, more God's Word, more authoritative than Rom 10:9-10?

Here's the problem with that. You would like me to answer questions that you already have a preconceived answer to. Which gives you ammunition to try and shoot my beliefs down. Homie don't play that.

Now if you would like to know why water baptism doesn't save you read the thread it's been answering probably 500 times.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry it never stated he was saved previous to meeting Peter and you ignore this contradiction to your theology

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Notice it says they shall be saved, not they shall get saved. They were already saved, the Gospel was sent to them to give them assurance and knowledge of their Salvation. When God sends saved people the Gospel, its to them the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If Salvation wasnt already theirs, it wouldnt be "your salvation" The word your is hymōn and its a possessive pronoun and salvation is in the genitive case which usually is descriptive of possession,

So Cornelius was being given assurance of his Salvation, for God does that for them who are saved and fear Him,

Cornelius feared and and his house, we know that from Acts 10:1-2

here was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Paul says that a word of Salvation is sent to them that fear God Acts 13;26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Because people who have the fear God have been saved, regenerated and given a new heart that fears God Jer 32:38-40
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[TomL]

Notice it says they shall be saved, not they shall get saved. They were already saved, the Gospel was sent to them to give them assurance and knowledge of their Salvation. When God sends saved people the Gospel, its to them the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If Salvation wasnt already theirs, it wouldnt be "your salvation" The word your is hymōn and its a possessive pronoun and salvation is in the genitive case which usually is descriptive of possession,

So Cornelius was being given assurance of his Salvation, for God does that for them who are saved and fear Him,

Cornelius feared and and his house, we know that from Acts 10:1-2

here was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Paul says that a word of Salvation is sent to them that fear God Acts 13;26

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Because people who have the fear God have been saved, regenerated and given a new heart that fears God Jer 32:38-40
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Um not until they hear the words

That refutes your claim they were already saved

 

[TomL]

Dont have to appear for it to still be the Sheep, Sheep appeared in Jn 10, that laid the foundation as to who Jesus draws to Himself by His Death. When He says He must bring His Sheep in Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Well that's relatively the same as must draw in Jn 12:32

But not his sheep

If you are not following him, you are not his sheep

John 10:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[brightfame52]

Um not until they hear the words

That refutes your claim they were already saved

I explained it to you but you cant believe.

 

[Doug Brents]

Here's the problem with that. You would like me to answer questions that you already have a preconceived answer to. Which gives you ammunition to try and shoot my beliefs down. Homie don't play that.

Now if you would like to know why water baptism doesn't save you read the thread it's been answering probably 500 times.

Not at all. I simply ask you what Scripture says. I am not trying to get you to believe what I believe just because I believe it. I ask you to submit to what Scripture says. If you trust in God, and believe the Bible is His word to you, then you must submit to what He says. God says that confession of Jesus as Lord results in salvation. Since confession of Jesus "with the mouth" which is clearly a physical act, "results in" salvation, we must accept the fact that there are acts of faith that precede reception of salvation. This is not "works salvation", but obedient faith. The idea that "works salvation" is something to be ridiculed is one of Satan's attacks. He wants to prevent as many as he can from being saved, and preventing us from obeying God is one of his most effective attacks, evidently.

 

[Believe]

Not at all. I simply ask you what Scripture says. I am not trying to get you to believe what I believe just because I believe it. I ask you to submit to what Scripture says. If you trust in God, and believe the Bible is His word to you, then you must submit to what He says. God says that confession of Jesus as Lord results in salvation. Since confession of Jesus "with the mouth" which is clearly a physical act, "results in" salvation, we must accept the fact that there are acts of faith that precede reception of salvation. This is not "works salvation", but obedient faith. The idea that "works salvation" is something to be ridiculed is one of Satan's attacks. He wants to prevent as many as he can from being saved, and preventing us from obeying God is one of his most effective attacks, evidently.

I'm sure you have plenty of experience with that.


So works salvation in your opinion is okay because it's one of Satan's attacks.

Third sentence there where you're asking me to submit to what scripture say. What you're really saying is you want me to submit what "you think" scriptures say.

That's what all false teachers try to do. The good news is you're not my teacher.

 

[Samson]

The apostle Philip explained the good news of Jesus to a devout Ethiopian man. When the man believed, he immediately asked to be baptized. Acts 8:26–40

First The Ethiopian believed the gospel and was saved then he was baptized.

 

[Red Baker]

The apostle Philip explained the good news of Jesus to a devout Ethiopian man. When the man believed, he immediately asked to be baptized. Acts 8:26–40

First The Ethiopian believed the gospel and was saved then he was baptized.

Greetings Samson,

Let us look at Acts 8:26-39~some wonderful scriptures teachings us some great truths~I do not disagree with what you said, I would just modify it a little based on the overall teachings of God's word.

Acts 8:26-39~"And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."

When one is not married to a religious' system, or a cult, you have freedom to teach the whole counsel of God. Praise be to the Lord, we are his freeman.

Philip meets a great eunuch of Ethiopia prepared by the Holy Ghost for conversion (Acts 8:26-34).

The Lord directs Philip to the desert, which direction we need for godly conversions. This man was an important government official, but he was a black, castrated Gentile.

The eunuch had been worshipping in Jerusalem as a proselyte of the Jews’ religion. He was not an unregenerate man, but born again, yet needed a conversion to the truth more perfectly!

While in Jerusalem, he secured a copy of part of the Old Testament and read Isaiah. With Divine prompting, Philip joins himself to this man’s chariot prepared by God.

The Lord had taken care of details, he was reading Isaiah 53 without understanding. With the heart of a righteous man, the eunuch desires Philip to teach him the Scripture.

The Lord set Philip up perfectly. The eunuch wanted to know the Subject of Isaiah 53. Philip preaches Christ Jesus to the noble eunuch and baptizes him in the desert (Acts 8:35-38).

What a passage to preach Christ Jesus! The Lord had prepared the eunuch perfectly. After hearing about baptism, the eunuch spies some water and seeks his own baptism. When God is in the matter, you will not need to use natural means to push conversion.

The eunuch asks a perfect question about baptism – what is the necessary condition?

Baby-sprinkling heretics wish there was no answer to this important question. So they deleted Acts 8:37 from most every version of the Bible but the KJV.

Baptists hold to “believers’ baptism” because of this and other similar verses. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience (I Pet 3:21), which rejects babies.

The eunuch also chose water deep enough to baptize Scripturally – by immersion. As John baptized in Aenon for the much water there (John 3:23), so Philip. Both Philip and the eunuch had to go down into the water for a godly baptism. Both Philip and the eunuch had to come up out of the water after the baptism. In this important passage, we condemn infant baptism and any mode but immersion.

The eunuch, having obeyed Jesus Christ, goes on his way to Ethiopia rejoicing.

Baptism does not put one into a local church, for the eunuch had none. Baptism is strictly between God and the one being baptized giving God an answer of a good conscience.

There is a salvation in baptism that those who are not baptized enjoy. But it is practical only in having a true understanding concerning the cross of Jesus Christ that those who have never been baptized have. Mark 16:16. Selah.