Gods Innate Attributes

[Rockson]

People tend to exaggerate the quantitative attributes beyond what the bible will support and they tend toward placing the quantitative attributes over and above God's qualitative attributes.

There is much truth to this. Yes we are to believe God is the Almighty and various things about him on that level. But I heard one say once God would rather you doubt things about his ability which would be quantitative as compared to his nature love and disposition or what you call qualitive attributes.

We can demonstrate it here. What would you rather have your children doubt about YOU, if they were in trouble. and needed help. Would you have them doubt that you can't help them or rather that you won't? The WON'T strikes right at the heart of all things. The CAN'T does not.

 

[Steven]

These are Gods Attributes apart from creation. Who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

1-Aseity- Self Sufficient
2-Eternal
3-Omnipresent
4-Omnipotent
5-Omniscient
6-Love
7-Holy
8-Immutable
9-Perichoresis
10-God is One- Unity within the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
11- Infinite
12- Transcendent
13- Humility
14- Good
15- Glorious

hope this helps !!!

So are these attributes about God only ?

 

[civic]

So are these attributes about God only ?

Yes these are who God is apart from His creation. There is a chance I may add or take away a couple of them.

 

[Logikos]

There is much truth to this. Yes we are to believe God is the Almighty and various things about him on that level. But I heard one say once God would rather you doubt things about his ability which would be quantitative as compared to his nature love and disposition or what you call qualitive attributes.

We can demonstrate it here. What would you rather have your children doubt about YOU, if they were in trouble. and needed help. Would you have them doubt that you can't help them or rather that you won't? The WON'T strikes right at the heart of all things. The CAN'T does not.

Excellent!

The same analogy works in the other direction as well. Would you as a parent desire for your children not to do evil things because you've managed to set things up in such a way as they CANNOT do evil, or would you rather that they refrain from evil because they do not want to do it?

Most parents these days do the former! They try to make it so that their kids cannot do wrong or harmful things. They'd be wiser to raise their kids in manner such that they will not do wrong or harmful things. The later is simple (not always easy but not complicated) and it almost always works. The later is complicated and exhausting and guaranteed to fail.

The same principle applies to criminal justice, by the way. Western cultures try to make it so that criminals cannot commit crimes whereas a godly, biblical system, would put deterrents in place such that people will not commit crimes. If you, for example, allowed the family of the victim to decide what manner of death a murderer would suffer upon his being convicted of the crime, then you'd suddenly see the murder rate drop to almost nothing. Sounds cruel until you compare the results then suddenly it doesn't seem so cruel after all.

 

[Logikos]

So are these attributes about God only ?

That's his arbitrarily designated category for them but you might notice that he refuses to address any inconsistencies to this artificial and certainly unbiblical categorization.

 

[Red Baker]

True! However, this is another one where many sects take this much further than the scripture will support and start teaching things that have more to do with Greek philosophy than anything taught in the bible and end up turning God into something so transcendent as to be unable to relate to anyone or anything outside of Himself.

Greetings Logikos,

I have a few thoughts concerning your post that I want to comment on. I'll do so in order as I have read your post to civic, which I find some disturbing views concerning the Godhead, which you put a small "g" on godhead when you used the word, maybe no big deal we shall see.

You said:

this is another one where many sects take this much further than the scripture will support and start teaching things that have more to do with Greek philosophy than anything taught in the bible

Is your name Graig Brown @ https://logikosministries.com/ ? If no, then accept my apologies.

Nevertheless, let's look at this post for now. Based on what I have read so far, it is you that is using Greek philosophy, more so than what the word of God said. You said:

False!

Concerning God being eternal. You added:

I take the term "eternal" to mean "timeless" as in existing outside of time, which is completely unbiblical as well as irrational. There is no verse anywhere that even suggests that God exists outside of time and there are several of God's attributes that would not be possible if He didn't experience time (e.g. patience, faithfulness, endurance, long suffering, etc.).

Further, the idea of existence outside of time commits a logical fallacy known as a stolen concept fallacy. The stolen concept fallacy happens when you employ one concept while undermining or outright denying the validity of a concept upon which the concept you're employing is logically based.

Well sir, your definition of eternal is wrong. God is eternal both ways! First scripture:

Deuteronomy 33:27​

“The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.”

1828 Webster: Without beginning or end of existence. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.

I take the term "eternal" to mean "timeless" as in existing outside of time, which is completely unbiblical as well as irrational.

You are creating your own definition sir, because it does not fit with your greek philosophy that your name tells me whence comes the source of your information. Eternal does not mean you can put God in a time box, so you reject the true meaning eternal, because you desire to have a god that does exist in time............ yet time means nothing to God. One day with God is what? a thousand years, or even million, God does not exist in time and neither will his people after this world is destroyed by fire......... time will forever cease to be. You labor to use the vain reasoning of a mortal mind as your primary source and scriptures as your secondary choice. I will assure folks if they do so, they will end up like others that Paul mentioned in Romans one:

Romans 1:20-22~"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

Time was created for us~days, months, years when God created this earth in six literal days and rested the seventh. We still to this days observe TIME, since it was God who created light and darkness and divided them for our benefit, not his. All of creation was done for us as mortal being so that we could live, work and rest,~ and likewise the four seasons, were given for the benefit of man. God, who is a Spirit, dwells in eternity from everlasting and will until everlasting. This will never change, The only God we shall ever see will be Jesus Christ in his glorified body living on the new earth world without end with his people whom God gave unto him.

My first point is finished.

 

[Red Baker]

For example, the concept of theft presupposes the concept of private property. So, if you're ever on the campus of Harvard and come across some mindless college student holding up a flag with a red fist on it and yelling into a blow-horn that "All private property is theft!", you can know that she hasn't thought her comment through. Her attempt to undermine the concept of private property means that she is "stealing the concept" of theft because without private property, no theft is possible.

I agree with this example, only you cannot used it against the two doctrines of

aseity and eternity

Just because you cannot accept that both cannot be true of God~yet, they are very true.

Here's where faith must ruled over our own wisdom of believing in the God of the holy scriptures, whose infinite attributes are past mortal man's ability to comprehend just a very small degree of his greatness.

Job 36:26​

“Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.”

So, you want us to believe that both cannot be true, yet they are both true. If Elihu could say they did not know him, how much less do we know God's greatness~truly we know very little~Job 32:23~"Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.~ You would be much wiser if you went back and read Job 32-37 and humble yourself before God's greatness, and believe with child like faith what you cannot reconcile in your pitiful mind, that is incapable of knowing God's greatness, we simply accept what we can not understand because of God's testimony concerning himself ~and that testimony is: that he is a Spirit that dwells in eternity with no beginning and no end ~ and beside him, there is no God according to his own testimony.

Isaiah 44:8​

“Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.”

That's good enough for me~it truly boils down to whether or not we believe the scriptures, over our finite and pitiful weak minds.

Timeless existence commits the same error because existence presupposes time. Time is not a thing. It is an idea. It's a convention of language used to communicate information related to the duration and sequence of events relative to other events. Existence without duration is a contradiction and if God experiences no sequence then how could He be that from which everything preceded, the first, the uncaused cause. Thus, the aseity and eternity (timelessness) of God cannot both be true.

You change the meaning of eternal to mean timeless, when it does not mean that. You are using Greek logic to put God into a time box, when that is impossible. Even now, God who is a Spirit, dwells in eternity, and his Son is exalted to his right hand~(now, God does not have hands as we do, so the meaning is that Christ is exalted as high as one can be exalted in a glorified flesh who we shall see) whom Christ shall be subject to when the kingdom of God is set up in its final and eternal state of glory in the new heavens and earth. Though Jesus Christ is the true God, and eternal life, yet as a man he will be subject unto God, who is a Spirit that no one has ever seen, or will ever see, impossible and not be consumed.

1st Timothy 6:14-16~"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

This is a Greek idea and as normally taught is false.

Biblically, God can be everywhere He wants to be at once, but He is neither required nor can He be forced to be someplace where He doesn't wish to be and He is entirely incapable of being in a place that does not exist, like outside of time or in the past or the future.

Highlighted is mine for discussion.

Concerning God's attribute of being Omnipresent~is not a greek idea it is God's own testimony of himself!

Coming back to address this point.

 

[Red Baker]

This is a Greek idea and as normally taught is false.

Biblically, God can be everywhere He wants to be at once, but He is neither required nor can He be forced to be someplace where He doesn't wish to be and He is entirely incapable of being in a place that does not exist, like outside of time or in the past or the future.

SIr, it is not that God can be, but the very word must mean that he is, and the scriptures declares clearly that he is.

God’s presence is continuous from eternity past to eternity future and throughout all of creation ~ past, present and future.

The Bible reveals that God can be both present to a person in a manifest manner (Psalm 46:1; Isaiah 57:15) and present in every situation in all of creation at any given time (Psalm 33:13-14). Omnipresence is God’s characteristic of being present to all ranges of both time and space. Although God is present in all time and space, God is not locally limited to any time or space. God is everywhere and in every now. No molecule or atomic particle is so small that God is not fully present to it, and no galaxy so vast that God does not circumscribe it. But if we were to remove creation, God would still know of it, for He knows all possibilities, whether they are actual or not.

If this is not so, then pray to tell me how God will judge every idle word that a man has ever spoken?

Matthew 12:36​

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”

Is this verse so, or not? Of course it is true.

Why should we even pray, if God doesn't hear our prayers? And if he hears, then he must be presence everywhere at once, which he is.

He is entirely incapable of being in a place that does not exist, like outside of time

Sir, eternity is outside of time, time does not exist in eternity where God dwells.

God is naturally present in every aspect of the natural order of things, in every manner, time and place (Isaiah 40:12; Nahum 1:3). God is actively present in a different way in every event in history as provident guide of human affairs (Psalm 48:7; 2 Chronicles 20:37; Daniel 5:5-6).

You have been deceived by Greek philosophy, or, by your own deceived heart.

I'll do the next one later.

 

[civic]

That's his arbitrarily designated category for them but you might notice that he refuses to address any inconsistencies to this artificial and certainly unbiblical categorization.

Was there wrath within the Father, Son and Holy Spirit before there was a creation ? yes or no

wrath means anger, indignation, punishment, vengeance

orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath,punishment, vengeance.

There was no wrath in existence. There is no wrath between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And I can go through a list of other attributes labeled on God that are not innate but relate only to the Fall and Sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Time was created for us~days, months, years when God created this earth in six literal days and rested the seventh. We still to this days observe TIME, since it was God who created light and darkness and divided them for our benefit, not his. All of creation was done for us as mortal being so that we could live, work and rest,~ and likewise the four seasons, were given for the benefit of man. God, who is a Spirit, dwells in eternity from everlasting and will until everlasting. This will never change, The only God we shall ever see will be Jesus Christ in his glorified body living on the new earth world without end with his people whom God gave unto him.

My first point is finished.

That is your fabrication. Time exists without any sense of the earth's rotation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This post sort of felt all over the place to me. Let's start by defining terms because I can't tell if we're even talking about the same things here.

Please tell me what you mean when you use the following terms....

• Sovereign
• Immutable
• Love

Also, nothing can act contrary to its nature. At least, not in the way you seem to mean it here. If God were to act unrighteously, it would mean that He was unrighteous, by nature (i.e. by definition). Indeed, this fact is the reason that "by definition" arguments work. This doesn't really effect your position all that much. It's just sort of a meaningless tautology, that all. To say that God cannot act contrary to His nature is the logical equivalent of stating that either the dog is brown or the dog is not brown. It's a true statement but not informative or actionable. It can't even be rightly used as a premise for an argument.

God has rights that He does not gift to His creation. After all, God has the right of ownership that is never shared with any other. The right to "Glory" that begins with Ownership.

God is the originator of "reason".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who cares how big someone's unrighteous god is? No one would rightly worship a god who knows everything if he is unjust.

So, is it just to murder your own children? Let just "jump" to where the conversation actually becomes meaningful to our existence.

And I say again, one is FORCED to make such choices. There will be some Calvinist who reads this who will jump up and down insisting that no such choices are necessary but he'll offer no evidence to back it up. It'll just be him making the claim, pounding the pulpit and hoping that his saying it will make it so.

Is God's love predicated upon His justice?

I'd like to see your logical construct of how one attribute of God is predicated upon another.

 

[civic]

So, is it just to murder your own children? Let just "jump" to where the conversation actually becomes meaningful to our existence.



Is God's love predicated upon His justice?

I'd like to see your logical construct of how one attribute of God is predicated upon another.

Ditto

 

[Logikos]

Greetings Logikos,

I have a few thoughts concerning your post that I want to comment on. I'll do so in order as I have read your post to civic, which I find some disturbing views concerning the Godhead, which you put a small "g" on godhead when you used the word, maybe no big deal we shall see.

The small g was a typo, nothing more.

Is your name Graig Brown @ https://logikosministries.com/ ? If no, then accept my apologies.

No. Never heard of him or his ministry. That's a cool name for a ministry though!

Well sir, your definition of eternal is wrong. God is eternal both ways! First scripture:

Your posts are all but impossible to respond to without having to spend a bunch of time undoing your formatting. Ugh!

Deuteronomy 33:27 “The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.”

Well, that scripture doesn't help you. I have no problem with the use of the term "eternal" but with the erroneous idea that it means timelessness. It does not mean that and no one believed it before Augustine imported the Greek notion into the church in the 5th century.

Eternal, as used in the above passage merely means and infinite amount of time.

1828 Webster: Without beginning or end of existence. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.

Again, no help here for you. There is nothing there that contradicts a syllable of what I've said. Indeed, it affirms it!

You are creating your own definition sir,

No SIR, I am not.

because it does not fit with your greek philosophy that your name tells me whence comes the source of your information.

By this ridiculous logic, pretty nearly the entire new testament is Greek philosophy by virtue of the fact that it was written in Greek!

Eternal does not mean you can put God in a time box, so you reject the true meaning eternal,

There is no such thing as a time box. Time is not a thing at all. It is an idea, an abstraction. It applies to anything that exists because the concept of existence implies duration. If God experiences duration and a sequence of events then He experiences time, by definition.

God did exist BEFORE creation and did so for an eternity.

because you desire to have a god that does exist in time............

I desire to have a worldview that comports with reality, nothing more, nothing less.

yet time means nothing to God.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

One day with God is what? a thousand years, or even million,

Yes, God is patient! An attribute that has no meaning at all if, as you say, "time means nothing to God".

God does not exist in time and neither will his people after this world is destroyed by fire......... time will forever cease to be.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

God is waiting right now for His enemies to be made His footstool.
The Bible records the saints in Heaven asking God, "How long, O Lord will you wait..."
The angels that surround the throne of God say "Holy, Holy, Holy". How do you suppose they ever get that second "Holy" out of their mouths if time doesn't exist?
After this Heaven and this Earth and the rest of this creation are all gone, the Tree of Life will be in the New Heaven and it will produce twelve different fruits, but not all at once! No! One fruit from the Tree of Life will come ripe each month.

You labor to use the vain reasoning of a mortal mind as your primary source and scriptures as your secondary choice.

The alternative is irrational nonsense. All you're really saying here is that you have no answer for my arguments and that we're to believe you whether it makes any sense or not.

I will assure folks if they do so, they will end up like others that Paul mentioned in Romans one:

Silly nonsense. You used logic and reason to type this post.

Time was created for us~days, months, years when God created this earth in six literal days and rested the seventh.

Where was it recorded that time was created? Chapter and verse please.

Such a verse does not exist.

Time is simply a convention of language we use to communicate the duration and sequence of events. "Days", "Weeks", "Years" are merely the words employed by that convention of language.

We still to this days observe TIME, since it was God who created light and darkness and divided them for our benefit, not his.

You are speaking here of clocks, not of time. There's a difference. A clock is any regularly occurring set of events used to compare the duration and sequence of events relative to those regularly occurring events. You can use any regularly occurring event you want. The spinning of the Earth, the Earth's orbit around the Sun, the Moon's orbit around the earth, the dripping of water, the swing of a pendulum, the bounce of a spring, the vibration of an atom. All make excellent clocks and clocks are extremely useful things indeed!

All of creation was done for us as mortal being so that we could live, work and rest,~ and likewise the four seasons, were given for the benefit of man. God, who is a Spirit,

This much of what you said is not in dispute.

dwells in eternity from everlasting and will until everlasting.

AMEN!

You didn't notice that you were contradicting yourself there, did you?

This will never change, The only God we shall ever see will be Jesus Christ in his glorified body living on the new earth world without end with his people whom God gave unto him.

Oh! That's as close to blasphemy as I'm willing to tolerate. Not that you'd care about that.

My first point is finished.

This is all I'm going to have time to respond to today.

 

[Logikos]

God has rights that He does not gift to His creation. After all, God has the right of ownership that is never shared with any other. The right to "Glory" that begins with Ownership.

Not in dispute but also seemingly irrelevant. What does that have to do with anything?

God is the originator of "reason".

God did not create reason, if that's what you meant by this statement. Just as God did not create love. God is Love. Love derives its meaning and finds it's ultimate expression in the Person of God Himself. Likewise, God is Reason. Reason derives its meaning and finds it's ultimate expression in the Person of God Himself.

Indeed, all the various attributes and forms of righteousness have this same divine quality.

 

[Logikos]

So, is it just to murder your own children? Let just "jump" to where the conversation actually becomes meaningful to our existence.

No, it is not just to murder - period.

Is God's love predicated upon His justice?

I'd say it was the other way around. An unloving god wouldn't care about justice.

If you believe that love and justice are mutually exclusive then the depravity of your doctrine can hardly be understated!

Is that really what you are suggesting?

I'd like to see your logical construct of how one attribute of God is predicated upon another.

It's intuitive, isn't it?

Being just pertains only to the righteous, righteousness only pertains to those who are loving, loving pertains only to those who have relationships, relationships are only possible between rational persons (i.e. an irrational person cannot communicate and therefore cannot relate to anyone or anything) who are alive.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not in dispute but also seemingly irrelevant. What does that have to do with anything?

It is a quality of God's existence. Such is always relative. We seek God.

God did not create reason, if that's what you meant by this statement. Just as God did not create love. God is Love. Love derives its meaning and finds it's ultimate expression in the Person of God Himself. Likewise, God is Reason. Reason derives its meaning and finds it's ultimate expression in the Person of God Himself.

Indeed, all the various attributes and forms of righteousness have this same divine quality.

God is Love. However, that doesn't mean that God didn't create love among humanity. We do not love in the same manner God loves. We may do things that are similar but not identical. Recognizing such variances are important in our discussion of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, it is not just to murder - period.

We can come back to this.

I'd say it was the other way around. An unloving god wouldn't care about justice..
If you believe that love and justice are mutually exclusive then the depravity of your doctrine can hardly be understated!

There you are.

Is that really what you are suggesting?

I'm seeking to understand how your view of "predication" works. It appears to be similar to those who advocate for the death of the "wicked" as they see it.

I believe most everything about God is predicated upon His love. I don't believe that our sin challenges God's Holiness. We are powerless to sustain anything.

I believe God begins with loving sinners. You know how I can tell? You and I are still alive......

How does justice allow the wicked to live without God's love?

Life is a gift. Living is just a foretaste of Glory Divine. Those that taste of life's goodness from God, want to live forever.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There is no such thing as a time box. Time is not a thing at all. It is an idea, an abstraction. It applies to anything that exists because the concept of existence implies duration. If God experiences duration and a sequence of events then He experiences time, by definition.

God did exist BEFORE creation and did so for an eternity.

We agree on a few things here. However, I would add that a God absent neverending sequence, is quantifiable. "ages without end".

 

[Rockson]

There is no such thing as a time box. Time is not a thing at all. It is an idea, an abstraction. It applies to anything that exists because the concept of existence implies duration. If God experiences duration and a sequence of events then He experiences time, by definition.

I agree with what you're saying that there is duration and sequence of events God experiences, as we would say with time. I agree a great many Bible teachers have take great liberty in assuming they've got the TIME thing all worked out. But how do you explain (if you understand it) Time dilation. I don't think you could define time as just sequencing There's something more peculiar about it than that.

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