DavidTree
Well-known member
also - Good Afternoon
God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
DavidTree
Well-known member
You gave me a 'thumbs up' on my question of reading all of Genesis so i am assuming you read it.
Genesis chapter 1 begins with the word 'Elohim' which is translated 'God'
Now take a closer look
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part
God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’e-lo-him')
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That's correct. It is the plural form.
Jews do not believe this refer to a plurality of minds or personalities.
So, is the God of you Jew friends a false God?
DavidTree
Well-known member
The Jews who murdered the JUST ONE do not believe.
The Jews who did believe were also murdered by the Jews who did not believe the Word.
Luke 20:9-19
Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out.
“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. Probably they will respect him when they see him.’
But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’
So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”
And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not!”
Then He looked at them and said, “What then is this that is written:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone’?
Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people—for they knew He had spoken this parable against them.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I agree.
My question, though, is not about Jewish murderers.
Certainly, is a Jew woships money, then money is its god and is a false god. It they worship sex or popularity, those are false gods.
What I have in mind, though, is your Jewish neighbor, dentist, retailer, client, colleague at work, who pray to God and fear God.
Does the God they pray to is a false god?
civic
Well-known member
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That's not what the Bible teaches.
You are quoting a verse from the epistle to Hebrews, where the same author recognizes that such shedding had no power to forgive sins.
The author of Hebrews is reviewing the rituals of the Law of Moses and replacing those symbols by new symbols: the priesthood of Jesus.
The Bible gives ample evidence that God forgave people without blood shedding, and people expected God to forgive their sins, as I have shown several times. So that thesis has been refuted in this thread.
If you disagree with all the evidence presented, please explain why.
civic
Well-known member
Dozens of verses say the same thing. Do I need to quote them again ?
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
DavidTree
Well-known member
The word 'god' is generic and can mean any 'god' just as you CORRECTLY/TRUTH pointed out - thank you
This is EXACTLY the FATHER's Will for you @Pancho Frijoles, to know who the True Living Elohim is.
Thus the FATHER gave us His WORD which begins for us in Genesis chapter 1 and HE builds His Foundation upon the WORD
civic
Well-known member
This post dismantled @Pancho Frijoles argument against the blood of Jesus
https://berean-apologetics.communit...hysical-resurrection.2218/page-12#post-131115
https://berean-apologetics.communit...hysical-resurrection.2218/page-12#post-131115
This fight you are doing was like Paul's fight to stop Christians and suppress the truth about Christ by killing the Christians. However, Paul encountered Christ on the road to Damascus and came to trust and follow the risen Savior. It is better to do as Paul did and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior. May God touch your heart with this recognition.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I’m struggling to find a good reason for this question. It seems to be just a needless baiting for an argument.
In the first place, Grace is given for the forgiveness of sin because we believe in Christ’s death for our sins and his subsequent resurrection from the dead. A particular viewpoint of the atonement and resurrection is not the immediate cause of forgiveness, but the continued belief in Jesus must eventually deal with these issues, because they are the details of who this Jesus, in whom we are believing, is and what he has done for us.
The initial event of salvation doesn’t require any firm belief in anything theologically specific beyond that Jesus has died for our personal sins and will forgive all who believe in him. But to do that we have to believe something regarding his blood shed for us (atonement) and that he was not a mere human in his fleshly constitution. He was fully human physically, but more than that in his whole reality. (Deity) As for his resurrection, if Christ is not raised from the dead, according to Paul, “we are still in our sins” “and our faith is futile”! (See 1 Cor 15) This makes belief in the resurrection of Christ an essential principle of belief in Christ. As Paul clearly says, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rom 10:9)
Doug
DavidTree
Well-known member
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civic
Well-known member
Amen brother
These points remind me that eternal life is knowing God. Doug has shown some of that knowledge. This "knowing" also may refer to relationship or personal knowledge of God. There is no knowing of God in these other religions where, in Pancho Frijoles' interpretation as shared, only includes the man's repentance as if they can only relate to their god in their god's capacity as a judge. It is like the Israel people at Mt. Sinai who avoided a closer interaction with the true God.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The good reason for this question is the reality of what happens every day in every part of the world: people from non-Christian religions, repenting and being transformed into new men. That happened to me.
So, given that reality that we all can witness, the question is "What is happening?"
The natural answer that a seven-old-year girl from Sunday School could give is: "God has forgiven them and changed them into good people"
The answer, however, does not come naturally for a handful of sectarians Evangelicals who give one of these two general answers:
- That can´t be true. That change is the product of cultural and psychological factors, not of God.
- That can't be true. That change in life is fake, not real. They are trying to get popularity or the applause of others, or trying to buy their ticket to heaven through self-righteousness, etc.
The sectarian Evangelical would say that God has not forgiven and transformed the Sikh, but has forgiven and transformed the Catholic.
The Catholic priest is a good example, they say, of God's grace in action.... while the Sikh is an example of hypocrisy or deception.
It doesn't matter how objective the evidence could be that both the Catholic and the Sikh bear the fruit of the Spirit in the rests of their lives.
The fruit, sectarians think, is known by first examining the tree, through the appropriate questions and confessions.
The tree, sectarians think, cannot be known by the fruit because the devil can trick us. If the apples look delicious and taste delicious, the tree may still be bad and the apples toxic. So, the best way to know if the tree is good is asking the Sikh at least three questions:
- Do you confess that Jesus is God?
- Do you confess that Jesus paid God with his blood your debt ,so that you can live physically for eternity?
- Do you confess that Jesus has a physical human-shaped body right now?
The answer must be a sincere "Yes" to all three.
Some sectarian Evangelicals add more questions. For example: Do you believe that the stories in the first 5 chapters of Genesis must be interpreted literally? Do you believe that people must be baptized? Do you believe in Sola Scriptura? etc.
Some add 5 questions, 50 questions, or 500 questions. There is no agreement on which questions are "mandatory" and which are "optional". For example, should the question "Do you reject the Calvinist view of limited atonement" be included? What about "Do you reject praying to Mary?"
Deciding which question to declare "mandatory" or "optional " is of utmost importance, because, as anyone knows, a salvation based in faith means salvation based in the acceptance of right doctrines and the rejection of wrong doctrines.
According to the sectarian view, we shouldn't care about trivial things like, for example, Oskar Schindler risking his life to protect 1,200 Jews from the Nazis. A true Christian at that time must have been concerned about the things that were REALLY important for the salvation of Schindler, the 1,200 Jews and Nazis alike: confessing Jesus' deity, substitutionary blood atonement and physical resurrection.
If they rejected those beliefs, it really doesn't matter who was hero, victim or villain in this story: Schindler, the 1,200 Jews and the Nazis deserve to burn in a gas chamber together, forever and ever.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Because if we believed that Christ were dead and defeated, then what he taught us or commanded us should not be followed. (Who wants to follow a defeated and forgotten leader?)
We would keep behaving like slaves of sin, without repenting. We would not start a new life.
So, we would be like dead.
In contrast, if we believe Christ is alive and victorious, we will follow his teachings and commandments. We will want to be citizens of his Kingdom.
We will repent, die to the old way of life and be born into a new way of life: a life of love and obedience to God.
The whole point of Paul and the disciples is that Jesus was not one of those dozens of failed messiahs who had been arrested, killed, defeated along their followers, discredited... and then forgotten. Jesus was The True Messiah sent by God, the True King of Israel, the True Son of God, even if he appeared as having been killed in the worst imaginable fashion, defeated, and forgotten by many.
His crucifixion had not been a curse, but a blessing for the world. His plans to establish The Kingdom had not been aborted, just postponed a bit ... but it would be firmly established and last forever. So, believers should already feel and act as kings, as priests, as judges. They should already feel like if they were sitting in his throne in heaven with Him.
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Good Post
Here is the irrevocable LAW that God laid down = "the soul that sins shall die"
Adam & Eve sinned and that sin contaminated the entire human race because ALL have sinned and fallen short of the GLORY of GOD
The Lord Jesus Christ NEVER sinned and therefore DEATH & the GRAVE was powerless to keep JESUS Body in the GRAVE
1 Corinthians 15:55-57
Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?”
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the Victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Let's throw in one more scenario which is quite relevant to 2024 and to all future years. Let's say another person enters the scene and prays to an Artificial Intelligence Jesus who then patiently and contemplatively hears and forgives the person of all his sins past and present. Having sincerely poured out his heart, that person then is convicted, repents of having stolen 1000 USD of Bitcoins, and is transformed upon hearing that he is forgiven by the AI Jesus. Where does that person stand in relationship to the Sikh and Catholic Priest?The good reason for this question is the reality of what happens every day in every part of the world: people from non-Christian religions, repenting and being transformed into new men. That happened to me.
So, given that reality that we all can witness, the question is "What is happening?"
The natural answer that a seven-old-year girl from Sunday School could give is: "God has forgiven them and changed them into good people"
The answer, however, does not come naturally for a handful of sectarians Evangelicals who give one of these two general answers:
The absurdity of this is reflected in the example I have given of a Sikh and a Catholic priest who stole 1000 USD from the funds of their communities, confessed their sin, repented sincerely, and submitted to God to become honest men for the rest of their lives.
- That can´t be true. That change is the product of cultural and psychological factors, not of God.
- That can't be true. That change in life is fake, not real. They are trying to get popularity or the applause of others, or trying to buy their ticket to heaven through self-righteousness, etc.
The sectarian Evangelical would say that God has not forgiven and transformed the Sikh, but has forgiven and transformed the Catholic.
The Catholic priest is a good example, they say, of God's grace in action.... while the Sikh is an example of hypocrisy or deception.
It doesn't matter how objective the evidence could be that both the Catholic and the Sikh bear the fruit of the Spirit in the rests of their lives.
The fruit, sectarians think, is known by first examining the tree, through the appropriate questions and confessions.
The tree, sectarians think, cannot be known by the fruit because the devil can trick us. If the apples look delicious and taste delicious, the tree may still be bad and the apples toxic. So, the best way to know if the tree is good is asking the Sikh at least three questions:
- Do you confess that Jesus is God?
- Do you confess that Jesus paid God with his blood your debt ,so that you can live physically for eternity?
- Do you confess that Jesus has a physical human-shaped body right now?
The answer must be a sincere "Yes" to all three.
Some sectarian Evangelicals add more questions. For example: Do you believe that the stories in the first 5 chapters of Genesis must be interpreted literally? Do you believe that people must be baptized? Do you believe in Sola Scriptura? etc.
Some add 5 questions, 50 questions, or 500 questions. There is no agreement on which questions are "mandatory" and which are "optional". For example, should the question "Do you reject the Calvinist view of limited atonement" be included? What about "Do you reject praying to Mary?"
Deciding which question to declare "mandatory" or "optional " is of utmost importance, because, as anyone knows, a salvation based in faith means salvation based in the acceptance of right doctrines and the rejection of wrong doctrines.
According to the sectarian view, we shouldn't care about trivial things like, for example, Oskar Schindler risking his life to protect 1,200 Jews from the Nazis. A true Christian at that time must have been concerned about the things that were REALLY important for the salvation of Schindler, the 1,200 Jews and Nazis alike: confessing Jesus' deity, substitutionary blood atonement and physical resurrection.
If they rejected those beliefs, it really doesn't matter who was hero, victim or villain in this story: Schindler, the 1,200 Jews and the Nazis deserve to burn in a gas chamber together, forever and ever.
Side question: For the Baha'i faith, do you think that we'll eventually get to the point that an AI Representative of God could be classified as another one of Allah's manifestations?
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I thank you for bringing up scenarios. You are one of the few people in the Forum who is not afraid to explain things through them.
Well, honestly, the only one I remember.
The man of your scenario has been forgiven and transformed by God, just as the Sikh and the Catholic priest, DESPITE having prayed to a virtual AI Jesus. God does not despise a broken heart.
In the end of the day, we all pray to a sort of virtual God… let me explain myself: we pray to the God we can conceive in our minds, which is light years from the God who actually exists.
In Paul’s words, we see like through a mirror. What we see in the mirror is not the actual God, or the actual Jesus, or the actual Paul or Isaiah. We only see reflections of God, Jesus, Paul, Isaiah.
I can only speak for myself and this is not the position of the Bahai Faith: I guess it will depend on how society evolves.
If society is already being taught by AI at some point, God could speak through AI. Whatever makes sense for God.
Personally I suspect next Manifestation from God will be a woman.
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