God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Johann]

I congratulate you for that answer.
However, my question is not about their salvation. We already know that salvation of souls is not in the hands of @synergy or Pancho Frijoles
My question is whether Jews and Calvinists worship a false God.
The question is also for @Doug Brents @civic, @Studyman, @Johann and anyone who wants to participate.

I’ve lost all interest since I no longer consider Civic a brother in Christ. @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

 

[civic]

Amen, my brother!
Indeed, we all worship God improperly.
Whether it is by our words, our thoughts, our actions, our inconsistency... our worship is improper.

Jehovah Witnesses, Calvinists, Jews, Muslims and Baptists worship the same God.
Their worship may be improper. Their ideas and discourse about God may be mistaken. But they worship the same God.
That's exactly why they can preach to each other about God, pray for each other to God, and hope together salvation from God.

I worship the same God that you worship.
Our ideas and discourses about God may be mistaken. But it is still the same One and Only God who listens to our prayers and extends to us his grace.

If that were true Jesus would not warn us about false gods, false christs, false teachers, false gospel, the broad road that leads to destruction and the narrow road that leads to life. Many will say on that day Lord Lord- His reply I never knew you depart from Me.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Of course. I hope you follow through with that thought. That would mean that we are not sure what our biological makeup was before the fall. Therefore, it will be pure speculation on everyone's part to talk about our before-fall state.

It is not "pure speculation", but deductive thinking. The same deductive thinking that you use everyday to survive.
Here is how it works:

1. General Statement: All living organisms known to have ever existed on Earth are subject to biological processes that lead to death.
2. Specific Case: Humans are living organisms that are known to have existed on Earth.
3. Conclusion: Therefore, humans have always been subject to biological processes that lead to death: they have always been mortal

Here is another one:

1. General Statement: Genetic traits are biological characteristics that are inherited from parents to offspring.
2. Specific Case: Depravity is a behavioral characteristic influenced by moral choices and environmental factors, not a genetic trait.
3. Conclusion: Therefore, depravity is not transmitted genetically from parents to their descendants.

You use deductive thinking in religion as well. For example:

1. General statement: No human being can save himself without the Grace of God.
2. Specific case: Hindus are human beings
3. Conclusion: Hindus cannot save themselves without the grace of God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If that were true Jesus would not warn us about false gods,

Those false gods did not include the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, right?

Did Paul believe that the God of the Jews was a false god?
No, he didn't. He constantly preached to Jews and wrote about Jews taking as granted they were talking about the same God that Christians worshiped. So, to the question, "Is the god of the Jews a false god"? Paul would undoubtedly answer: No, the God of Jews is true.

Therefore, God is God, regardless of whether people consider Him triune or not, and regardless on whether people consider Jesus Messiah or not. That's Step 1. That enables any meaningful discussion between Jews and Christians, and enables any joint prayer for peace of for the rescue of a little girl trapped in a collapsed building.

Now, step 2: Once Jews and Christians agree on the fact that have the same God, they can proceed to explore together what is the best way to worship God. What are the doctrines, practices, or attitudes that enable us accede to his mercy or grace.

Same with Allah.
Step 1: Catholic theologians acknowledge that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who sent Jesus to the world). I suppose other Protestant theologians acknowledge that as well. If Muslims and Catholics or Protestants engage in a conversation about God, they know they are talking about the same Being. If they pray together for peace in Middle East, or for the life of a little girl trapped in a collapsed building, they are praying to the same God.

Step 2: Christians and Muslims can now discuss whether their form of worship, or discourses about God, are proper or not.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’ve lost all interest since I no longer consider Civic a brother in Christ. @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

Yet, you have Jews and Calvinists living in your city... perhaps even as coworkers or acquaintances, government officials, teachers of your children, doctors of your family... who knows.
Is their god a false god?
Cheer up, my friend!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Many will say on that day Lord Lord- His reply I never knew you depart from Me.

Read well his reply.
His reply was "I never knew you, evildoers"

Jesus is not rejecting people on the grounds of their theological mistakes, but on the grounds of their evil deeds.
The same happens in Matthew 25, when Jesus talks about Final Judgement. The "goats on the left" are rejected based on their evil deeds.

 

[civic]

Read well his reply.
His reply was "I never knew you, evildoers"

Jesus is not rejecting people on the grounds of their theological mistakes, but on the grounds of their evil deeds.
The same happens in Matthew 25, when Jesus talks about Final Judgement. The "goats on the left" are rejected based on their evil deeds.

Yet the Pharisees of Jesus day “ worshipped “ the one God and He says their father was the devil and they “ obeyed” the law.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yet the Pharisees of Jesus day “ worshipped “ the one God and He says their father was the devil and they “ obeyed” the law.

That’s right.
And why did Jesus say that his father was the devil? What does the passage say?

 

[civic]

That’s right.
And why did Jesus say that his father was the devil? What does the passage say?

Everyone’s heart is evil and desperately wicked.

 

[synergy]

It is not "pure speculation", but deductive thinking. The same deductive thinking that you use everyday to survive.
Here is how it works:

1. General Statement: All living organisms known to have ever existed on Earth are subject to biological processes that lead to death.

Not for Pre-Fall humans according to Genesis. Since Genesis is inspired and not pagan myth, we cannot state for certain what was man's biological state before the fall.

Since your premise statement fails, we can dismiss everything else that's based on that false premise.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not for Pre-Fall humans according to Genesis. Since Genesis is inspired

“Inspired” does not mean “dictated”, and does not mean “written to teach humans Peruvian cuisine or how to get the value of Pi”

and not pagan myth,

There are many myths that are the base of the first chapters of Genesis, including the Fall.
This is common to all ancient literature. God taught his children using myths.
There are many people from your religion that accept this.
So, being Christian is compatible with rejecting Genesis as a historical or scientific documentary, and embracing it for its spiritual meaning.

we cannot state for certain what was man's biological state before the fall.

According to the biblical genealogy, Adam lived around 6000 years ago.
The first fossils of Homo sapiens are from 300,000 years ago.
So, death has been with men much before, and Genesis is NOT a historical documentary.
Please do not abuse from the sacred purpose of the Bible.

Since your premise statement fails, we can dismiss everything else that's based on that false premise.

Your fantasies have been refuted by reality.
The pastors who taught you the Bible did not understand what “inspired” meant. Time to wake up, my Brother.
The Bible is full of truth and beauty if you take it for what it is: an instrument of God to prepare you for a better life.

 

[civic]

Inspired does not mean dictated, and does not mean inspired to teach Peruvian cuisine or how to get the value of Pi.


There are many myths that are the base of the first chapters of Genesis, including the Fall.
This is common to all ancient literature. God taught his children using myths.
There are many people from your religion that accept this.
So,being Christian is compatible with rejecting Genesis as a historical or scientific documentary, amd embracing it for its spiritual meaning.


According to the biblical genealogy, Adam lived around 6000 years ago.
The first fossils of Homo sapiens are from 300,000 years ago.
So, death has been with men much before, and Genesis is NOT a historical documentary.
Please do not abuse from the sacred purpose of the Bible.

Your fantasies have been refuted by reality.
The pastors who taught you the Bible did not understand what “inspired” meant. Time to wake up, my Brother.
The Bible is full of truth and beauty if you take it for what it is: an instrument of God to prepare you for a better life.

The dating methods are inaccurate that’s been proven to be false.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The dating methods are inaccurate that’s been proven to be false.

Not with such margins of error!
For example, the fossils from Jebel Irhoud, in Morocco, are dated to approximately 314,000 years old, with a margin of error from 280,000 to 350,000 year. Very far from the biblical 6000 years! Besides fossils, we have the projections based on genetics, which track the split between Homo sapiens and Homo Neanderthal to about 500,000 years ago.

https://www.science.org/content/article/world-s-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils-found-morocco

That’s why many theologians and pastors from your religion, consider seriously that the stories of creation, the Fall, the Flood, are not historical accounts.
Please read this letter and notice how many pastors from several Christian churches endorse it

“Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts. ​

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth”​

​

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2005031...ls/religion_science_collaboration.htm#endorse​

 

[synergy]

“Inspired” does not mean “dictated”, and does not mean “written to teach humans Peruvian cuisine or how to get the value of Pi”

Why would you want to talk about the value of Pi? How does that advance your position?

There are many myths that are the base of the first chapters of Genesis, including the Fall.
This is common to all ancient literature. God taught his children using myths.
There are many people from your religion that accept this.
So, being Christian is compatible with rejecting Genesis as a historical or scientific documentary, and embracing it for its spiritual meaning.

Your disbelief of Genesis means that it's a pagan myth to you. All Muslim believers believe that Genesis is pagan mythology and the Bible is corrupted when it comes to the Cross.

According to the biblical genealogy, Adam lived around 6000 years ago.

Please forward your sources.

The first fossils of Homo sapiens are from 300,000 years ago.
So, death has been with men much before, and Genesis is NOT a historical documentary.
Please do not abuse from the sacred purpose of the Bible.

That goes to show you how low man fell after being tossed out from the garden of Eden.

Your fantasies have been refuted by reality.
The pastors who taught you the Bible did not understand what “inspired” meant. Time to wake up, my Brother.
The Bible is full of truth and beauty if you take it for what it is: an instrument of God to prepare you for a better life.

A better life is not based on desecrating the Bible as pagan myths, as you're doing. The fact remains that allah is a god of death and of pagan myths.

 

[civic]

Not with such margins of error!
For example, the fossils from Jebel Irhoud, in Morocco, are dated to approximately 314,000 years old, with a margin of error from 280,000 to 350,000 year. Very far from the biblical 6000 years! Besides fossils, we have the projections based on genetics, which track the split between Homo sapiens and Homo Neanderthal to about 500,000 years ago.

https://www.science.org/content/article/world-s-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils-found-morocco

That’s why many theologians and pastors from your religion, consider seriously that the stories of creation, the Fall, the Flood, are not historical accounts.
Please read this letter and notice how many pastors from several Christian churches endorse it

“Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts. ​

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth”​

​

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2005031...ls/religion_science_collaboration.htm#endorse​

then they have denied the faith, the God of the Bible and have made God out to be a liar. Genesis is a historical record of the entire creation and its beginning.

 

[synergy]

Very far from the biblical 6000 years!

Please produce your Biblical sources. Without proof, it's your case that is in fact based on pagan mythology.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

then they have denied the faith, the God of the Bible and have made God out to be a liar. Genesis is a historical record of the entire creation and its beginning.

I think they are strengthening Christian faith, protecting it from superstition and ridicule.
We find among them Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, etc.

God is not a liar, since God never ever promised to deliver in Genesis an accurate historical or scientific account of any kind.

God’s guidance about the use of Scriptures is this:
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

Your death and my death are part of God’s plan to sustain life.
Next time you take a shower, civic, take a moment to contemplate your body and thank God for your temporary dwelling. Enjoy it, take care of it, use it for God’s glory, and then give it back with gratitude, peace and joy. It is not yours.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Please produce your Biblical sources. Without proof, it's your case that is in fact based on pagan mythology.

Literalists have done the maths for us. You can resort to their work if curious.
Now, If you have the time and energy to ty it yourself, start with the genealogies of Matthew or Luke plus those of Genesis 5.

 

[synergy]

Literalists have done the maths for us. You can resort to their work if curious.
Now, If you have the time and energy to ty it yourself, start with the genealogies of Matthew or Luke plus those of Genesis 5.

I see that you have no complete proof - just bits and pieces that you hope tie together in the way you envision it. I thought so. Your whole argument just crashed and burned.

Conclusion: Allah is a god of death and pagan myths.

 

[synergy]

Your death and my death are part of God’s plan to sustain life.

You are a true disciple to your god of death (allah). You befriend death, warm up to it, embrace it, love it. cuddle it, etc...

Without the Cross, all there is is death. Your god of death has no power over death. Your choice.