God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

correct 2 different gods,

For Jews, Christians and Muslims there is only One All Powerful, All Merciful, All Wise, All Eternal God who is the source of all things that exist.
Yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Who, then, in this Forum, dares to say that Jews worship a different God, because they don't believe in the Trinity?

Furthermore, Paul told the Pagan Athenians that Paul's God was also worshiped by them (see below).
So, if Pagan polytheists also worshiped Paul's God, and were children of Paul's God, and along with Paul existed in God... who could argue that Muslims, who are light-years closer to Paul than Athenian polytheists, do not worship the same God?

Please read:

Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and [u]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the descendants of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. 30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge [v]the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”

*****

Catholic theologians have recognized that Allah is the same God Catholics worship, regardless of all deficiencies Muslims may have in their understanding of God. That's why we find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC841):

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mandkind's judge on the last day"​

​

By the same token, the Holy Quran, in Surah 29 verse 46, talking about Jews and Christians, states:

Do not argue with the People of the Book unless gracefully, except with those of them who act wrongfully. And say, “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God is the only One. And to Him we fully submit.”​

 

[synergy]

I guess they can. I think your understanding is correct.

I would like to know what Muslims think about associating partners (literal or symbolic) to Allah. I would not be surprised if they classify it as shirk, the most grievous sin of all according to their beliefs.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would like to know what Muslims think about associating partners (literal or symbolic) to Allah. I would not be surprised if they classify it as shirk.

I would ask them: If my wife and I procreate a baby, could we say we are symbolically partners of Allah in the creation of that baby?
If they say "Yes", good for them.
If they say "No", I wouldn't be hard on them: they would be exhibiting the very same difficulty I had for years: failing to recognize symbolic language.

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I believed, along with Muslims, that resurrection implies physical bones, ears, hips and toes. I don't believe that anymore.​

I believed, along with Muslims, that Satan and his demons are literal individual beings. I don't believe that anymore.​

​

In these things, and perhaps in several other doctrines, you and Muslims would now join forces in a debate.​

 

[synergy]

I would ask them: If my wife and I procreate a baby, could we say we are symbolically partners of Allah in the creation of that baby?
If they say "Yes", good for them.
If they say "No", don't be too hard on them: they would be making the very same mistake you have been doing for years: failing to recognize symbolic language.

So you have no idea what Muslims would say to my question. Before you fly off into speculative tangents as you're doing, why don't we ask a Muslim in one of their websites. Let rational logic prevail

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You, along with Muslims, think that resurrection implies physical bones, ears, hips and toes. I don't. ​

You, along with Muslims, think that Satan and his demons are literal individual beings. I don't.​

​

In these things, and perhaps in several other doctrines, you and Muslims would join forces in a debate.​

As far as Satan and Allah is concerned, we've already established that they are both the same god of death and myths. So I don't think we will be joining forces any time now.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So you have no idea what Muslims would say to my question. Before you fly off into speculative tangents as you're doing, why don't we ask a Muslim in one of their websites. Let rational logic prevail

I agree.
I would recommend, though, to ask not one, but one hundred, if what you want is to grasp a feeling of how literal or symbolic the common Muslim take those terms in those contexts.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So you have no idea what Muslims would say to my question. Before you fly off into speculative tangents as you're doing, why don't we ask a Muslim in one of their websites. Let rational logic prevail

As far as Satan and Allah is concerned, we've already established that they are both the same god of death and myths. So I don't think we will be joining forces any time now.

Allah is author of biological death, and the Master at using myths to teach truths.
In that sense, Allah is God of death and myths. Yes.

"Satan" is author of spiritual death, and the master at using myths to deceive.
In that sense, "Satan" is a god of death and myths. Yes.

Now, I have established what Allah and Satan are in regard to death and myths. I find my statement correct.
You have established what Allah and Satan are in regard to death and myths. I find your statement incorrect.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

2 different prophets,

I would say many different prophets.
Each prophet of God you believe in, is different. Different warnings, different language, different imagery and symbols, different life stories, different impact. Yet their message is the same in essence.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The gospels would have the Father saying

"I'm the Father, your God, the one and only God."

Except the Father never said that did He ?

The Father doesn't speak much in the gospels, does He? Instead, He asks us to listen what His Son had to say.
“This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him!” (Matthew 17:5)

His Son had indeed something to say. He said that His God and Father was the same God and Father of his apostles. (John 20:17)
The Son said as well that His Father was "The True and Only God", while Jesus Himself was the One Sent by God. (John 17:1-3)

The Son stated that everything he said came from the Father, not from his own invention or authority (John 14:10). So, we can conclude that The Father said, through Jesus, that He, The God of Israel, is the Only and Only God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree.
I would recommend, though, to ask not one, but one hundred, if what you want is to grasp a feeling of how literal or symbolic the common Muslim take those terms in those contexts.

In the meantime, @synergy, as you plan your survey, you may find interesting that the quranic meaning of shirk implies we set rivals to Allah: anything that competes with God for our devotion, love, worship, loyalty.

The Quran states:

“Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped)” [Surah al-Baqarah 2:22]

“And they set up rivals to Allah, to mislead (men) from His path! Say: ‘Enjoy (your brief life)! But certainly, your destination is the (Hell) Fire!’” [Surah Ibrahim 14:30]

I have defended Christians like you for those who accuse you of idolatry, by stating that Jesus is not an idol that competes in your heart with the Father. Christ is the vivid image (manifestation, representative) of the Father. There is no single issue in which following Jesus implies disobeying the Father.

CONCLUSION: Christ is not a rival of Allah. A devote Christian, in his daily life, does not commit shirk. If Muslims do not understand that, too sad. They are giving me another reason for not being Muslim.

 

[synergy]

Allah is author of biological death, and the Master at using myths to teach truths.
In that sense, Allah is God of death and myths. Yes.

"Satan" is author of spiritual death, and the master at using myths to deceive.
In that sense, "Satan" is a god of death and myths. Yes.

Now, I have established what Allah and Satan are in regard to death and myths. I find my statement correct.
You have established what Allah and Satan are in regard to death and myths. I find your statement incorrect.

Both Allah and satan use myths to deceive. Allah claims that Genesis is a myth which is an obvious deception on his part.

Genesis proves that spiritual and physical death are linked together. When Adam sinned, God introduced physical death.

Therefore, allah and satan are the same god of death and deceptive myths.

 

[synergy]

I would say many different prophets.
Each prophet of God you believe in, is different. Different warnings, different language, different imagery and symbols, different life stories, different impact. Yet their message is the same in essence.

You don't think that the fact that Jesus is God (John 1:1) is essential? It's back to the drawing board for the Baha'i who wish to absorb all religions into their heretical collective.

 

[synergy]

In the meantime, @synergy, as you plan your survey, you may find interesting that the quranic meaning of shirk implies we set rivals to Allah: anything that competes with God for our devotion, love, worship, loyalty.

The Quran states:

“Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped)” [Surah al-Baqarah 2:22]

“And they set up rivals to Allah, to mislead (men) from His path! Say: ‘Enjoy (your brief life)! But certainly, your destination is the (Hell) Fire!’” [Surah Ibrahim 14:30]

I have defended Christians like you for those who accuse you of idolatry, by stating that Jesus is not an idol that competes in your heart with the Father. Christ is the vivid image (manifestation, representative) of the Father. There is no single issue in which following Jesus implies disobeying the Father.

CONCLUSION: Christ is not a rival of Allah. A devote Christian, in his daily life, does not commit shirk. If Muslims do not understand that, too sad. They are giving me another reason for not being Muslim.

There is no rivalry, that is correct. It's also a fact that we worship Jesus as God. It's too sad that Baha'i do not understand that.