God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

Listen. Anyone can claim that he is God and that he forgives you. Even I can do that.

I hadn't heard that argument before.

I'm not aware of any other God who has claimed to be One, Eternal, Almighty, All Merciful, All Wise, etc. except by the God of the
monotheistic peoples in the Middle East: Zoroastrians and Jews in the first place, and then all subsequent religions derived from that monotheism.

Zeus did not claim to be that God, for example. Zeus claimed to be the king among several gods.
Let's suppose, though, that an ancient Greek lady who made fraud to her customers asked Zeus for forgiveness, with a contrite heart, having confessed her fraud to her customers and given back to them what is due. She goes to the temple of Zeus, offers a sacrifice, and commits to a life of honesty.
As per the Epistle to the Romans that you have pointed out to, such woman would be judged by the sincerity of his heart, where the commandment "Do not steal" is embedded by God.

So, even when our discourses about God (or a divinity) are full of mistakes, or people don't have a well-developed discourse about God as such (eg she has never given much thought to Theology) God will not despise a broken, contrite heart.

 

[synergy]

I hadn't heard that argument before.

I'm not aware of any other God who has claimed to be One, Eternal, Almighty, All Merciful, All Wise, etc. except by the God of the
monotheistic peoples in the Middle East: Zoroastrians and Jews in the first place, and then all subsequent religions derived from that monotheism.

Zeus did not claim to be that God, for example. Zeus claimed to be the king among several gods.
Let's suppose, though, that an ancient Greek lady who made fraud to her customers asked Zeus for forgiveness.
As per the Book of Romans that you have pointed out to, such woman would be judged by the sincerity of his heart, where the commandment "Do not steal" is embedded by God.

So, even when our discourses about God are full of mistakes, or people don't have a well-developed discourse about God as such (eg she has never given much thought to Theology) God will not despise a broken, contrite heart.

That proves that anybody can claim anything they want. It is important to know who is the true God. Is it Allah, who is the god of death and deceptive myths, or is it the God of Life, the Triune God, who has conquered death and who does not go around promoting deceptive myths like allah does?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That proves that anybody can claim anything they want.

Zeus did not claim to be the One and Only, All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing God. Did he?
Nobody has ever claimed that, except for the God of the Zoroastrian-Jewish-Christian-Islamic-Sikh-Baha'i monotheistic faith.

It is important to know who is the true God.

Passing a quiz of Theology is not salvation based in grace.
That is merit-based salvation, not supported by Scriptures.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That proves that anybody can claim anything they want. It is important to know who is the true God. Is it Allah, who is the god of death and deceptive myths, or is it the God of Life, the Triune God, who has conquered death and who does not go around promoting deceptive myths like allah does?

The triune God does not exist. That is a myth. You keep no real or meaningful relationship in your daily life with a triune God.
However, God does not require from you to abandon that myth in order to forgive you and change your heart, as your own story bear witness.
He love us all, despite of our personal myths and theological flaws.

 

[synergy]

Zeus did not claim to be the One and Only, All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing God. Did he?
Nobody has ever claimed that, except for the God of the Zoroastrian-Jewish-Christian-Islamic-Sikh-Baha'i monotheistic faith.

Allah is a god of death and myths, not a God of Life.

Passing a quiz of Theology is not salvation based in grace.
That is merit-based salvation, not supported by Scriptures.

You can worship your god of death. I prefer to worship the God of Life.

 

[Doug Brents]

Zeus did not claim to be the One and Only, All Merciful, All Powerful, All Knowing God. Did he?
Nobody has ever claimed that, except for the God of the Zoroastrian-Jewish-Christian-Islamic-Sikh-Baha'i monotheistic faith.

Allah does claim to be the One and Only. But he is not the real God who made the universe. That is Satan posing as God, and stealing God's position of authority.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Allah does claim to be the One and Only. But he is not the real God who made the universe. That is Satan posing as God, and stealing God's position of authority.

Hi, Doug and @civic

How do you know that the God who our Jew brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?
How do you know that the God who our Calvinist brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?

 

[civic]

Hi, Doug and @civic

How do you know that the God who our Jew brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?
How do you know that the God who our Calvinist brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?

1-The disciples were Jews
2-Calvinists believe in the same God as the disciples
3-They believe in the same God as me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi, Doug and @civic

How do you know that the God who our Jew brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?
How do you know that the God who our Calvinist brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?

The Jews have a tradition of following the God who made the universe that goes all the way back to the Creation of the universe.

In the Scriptures that He calls His Word (penned over 2500 years by 40 different men), He never once makes a mistake, contradicts Himself, or gets anything wrong. There are cross-references all through the Scriptures back and forth that show continuity (see image below). If man were to attempt to write the history, laws, prophecies, etc. that we find in the Bible (on his own), there would be so many holes, errors, contradictions, etc. that it would be laughable (see the quran, and the book of mormon as examples).

Christ Jesus is the ONLY God among all the religions of the world that makes the effort to come to man to redeem him. In EVERY other religion, it is all about what man has to do to get to God.

There are more copies of the Scriptures, dating back earlier, than any other religion's "holy writings", and those writings are unchanged from the oldest documents we have to what is commonly in use today.

 

[synergy]

Hi, Doug and @civic

How do you know that the God who our Jew brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?
How do you know that the God who our Calvinist brothers worship is the real God who made the universe?

Whoever believes in the God who gives life, has the power to overcome death, and is not in the business of promoting pagan myths is on the right path. Muslims fail on all 3 criteria when it comes to allah.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Whoever believes in the God who gives life,

Life to whom?
According to the Calvinist, God gives life only to those He elected beforehand.
So, do Calvinists worship God?

has the power to overcome death,

Muslims believe in physical resurrection, just like you.

and is not in the business of promoting pagan myths is on the right path. Muslims fail on all 3 criteria when it comes to allah.

To Jews and to me, many Christians promote the pagan myth of Trinity, among other myths, such as eternal lake of fire. Still, we recognize that those Christians worship the true and only God.
So, the mere presence of myths (pagan or from whatever origin) does not seem to separate those who worship God and those who don't.

 

[synergy]

Life to whom?
According to the Calvinist, God gives life only to those He elected beforehand.
So, do Calvinists worship God?

That's for God to decide.
As for allah, he doesn't even have power over death so how can he possibly have power over life?

Muslims believe in physical resurrection, just like you.

Allah denies the Cross which is the only way to one's Resurrection. You're out of luck if you choose allah for your salvation.

To Jews and to me, many Christians promote the pagan myth of Trinity, among other myths, such as eternal lake of fire. Still, we recognize that those Christians worship the true and only God.
So, the mere presence of myths (pagan or from whatever origin) does not seem to separate those who worship God and those who don't.

The true God does not proclaim pagan myths as inspired truth. Therefore, Genesis is inspired. That fact causes allah to be exposed as a being that has no power over death. He is a god of death.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's for God to decide.

I didn't understand your answer.
It is for God to decide what? Whether Calvinists worship the true God?

 

[synergy]

I didn't understand your answer.
It is for God to decide what? Whether Calvinists worship the true God?

Their salvation is in the hands of God, not in my hands or yours.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Their salvation is in the hands of God, not in my hands.

I congratulate you for that answer.
However, my question is not about their salvation. We already know that salvation of souls is not in the hands of @synergy or Pancho Frijoles
My question is whether Jews and Calvinists worship a false God.
The question is also for @Doug Brents @civic, @Studyman, @Johann and anyone who wants to participate.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Therefore, Genesis is inspired.

The fact that Genesis is inspired DOES NOT mean it is inspired to teach us about astronomy, geology or biology.
It is inspired by God to equip us spiritually for righteousness, for all good work, as the rest of Scripture.

So, whenever we want to learn about astronomy, geology or biology, we MUST NOT consider Genesis as the source of information.
If we do it, we are ignoring the purpose by which Scripture was inspired.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16,17, NKJV)

If you want to debate further the fact that biological death is good, part of God's creation, and essential to sustain life, please join me in a separate thread.

 

[synergy]

I congratulate you for that answer.
However, my question is not about their salvation. We already know that salvation of souls is not in the hands of @synergy or Pancho Frijoles
My question is whether Jews and Calvinists worship a false God.
The question is also for @Doug Brents @civic, @Studyman, @Johann and anyone who wants to participate.

The true God has power over life and death. That eliminates allah. How close are Jews and Calvinists to the true God? That's way above my pay grade.

 

[Doug Brents]

I congratulate you for that answer.
However, my question is not about their salvation. We already know that salvation of souls is not in the hands of @synergy or Pancho Frijoles
My question is whether Jews and Calvinists worship a false God.
The question is also for @Doug Brents @civic, @Studyman, @Johann and anyone who wants to participate.

It is entirely possible to worship the true God, but to worship Him improperly. If He is worshiped in the correct way, and with the correct spirit, then life results. But man's default condition is condemnation, and if we worship even the true God in the wrong manner, we remain in condemnation.

Jews worship the one true God, but most of them still worship Him by traditions and laws that have been obsolete for 2000 years.
Calvinists may worship the one true God, but they believe things about Him that are untrue. And so their beliefs about how life works are faulty. Are they still condemned? As @synergy said, that is for God to say.

 

[synergy]

The fact that Genesis is inspired DOES NOT mean it is inspired to teach us about astronomy, geology or biology.

Of course. I hope you follow through with that thought. That would mean that we are not sure what our biological makeup was before the fall. Therefore, it will be pure speculation on everyone's part to talk about our before-fall state.

It is inspired by God to equip us spiritually for righteousness, for all good work, as the rest of Scripture.

So, whenever we want to learn about astronomy, geology or biology, we MUST NOT consider Genesis as the source of information.
If we do it, we are ignoring the purpose by which Scripture was inspired.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16,17, NKJV)

If you want to debate further the fact that biological death is good, part of God's creation, and essential to sustain life, please join me in a separate thread.

The fact remains that Allah has no power to create life or to reverse death. You can dance around that fact all you want. It won't change the fact that allah is just a god of death.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is entirely possible to worship the true God, but to worship Him improperly. If He is worshiped in the correct way, and with the correct spirit, then life results. But man's default condition is condemnation, and if we worship even the true God in the wrong manner, we remain in condemnation.

Jews worship the one true God, but most of them still worship Him by traditions and laws that have been obsolete for 2000 years.
Calvinists may worship the one true God, but they believe things about Him that are untrue. And so their beliefs about how life works are faulty. Are they still condemned? As @synergy said, that is for God to say.

Amen, my brother!
Indeed, we all worship God improperly.
Whether it is by our words, our thoughts, our actions, our inconsistency... our worship is improper.

Jehovah Witnesses, Calvinists, Jews, Muslims and Baptists worship the same God.
Their worship may be improper. Their ideas and discourse about God may be mistaken. But they worship the same God.
That's exactly why they can preach to each other about God, pray for each other to God, and hope together salvation from God.

I worship the same God that you worship.
Our ideas and discourses about God may be mistaken. But it is still the same One and Only God who listens to our prayers and extends to us his grace.