God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're missing the point. God brought in physical & spiritual death only after man sinned.

But such assumption is wrong. It violates reality.
Reality shows that physical death was always been part of living organisms, including men. It is embedded in our DNA.
And Not just biological death... look at any form of destruction and re-creation in nature! Mountains are flattened. Oceans disappear. Stars die or explode, planets get roasted with any living organism dwelling in them.

This is NOT evil. This is recycling, movement, re-creation. It is part of God's creative process. It is good.

The facts are that the entire Quran is viewed as holy, not portions of it as you're trying to convince us.

Same with the Bible. We view it entirely as holy, including the instructions to kill men, women, children, girls (except those able for reproduction) and animals.

Sorry, the facts speak for themselves. The Quran does not have its cut throat verses abrogated as the NT has already done for the OT violent verses.

If the NT had been written in time of war and in a position for Christians to defend themselves and win, OF COURSE the NT would have included military instructions.
This is because the principle of defense is eternal, and just, and merciful. And this is why you can't bring a single verse of the NT that teaches that those instructions given by Moses or Samuel were evil.
The only thing we can say is that those instructions had ceased to be applicable... but not just starting with Jesus, but since the Roman Empire took over and allowed enough religious freedom.

 

[synergy]

King David was not looking to a distant future. He was asking that renewal as immediately as he was asking forgiveness.
Please read Psalm 51 and share with us where exactly David is looking into the future.

Read Hebrews 11 and how the OT Prophets looked forward to that promise.

I see your point, in that the understanding of the laws of God would be something spiritualized, "embedded in the heart", because that is what Jesus emphasized.
This has nothing to do with the fact that people were inwardly transformed centuries ago.

Huh? Christians were transformed centuries ago starting from Pentecost and onwards.

It wouldn't matter for Nephi.
Who OT prophet ever talked about baptism? You believe in baptism despite its absence from the Tanakh. Don't you?
Well, Nephi believes in celestial marriage in the Temple even if it is not in the Bible, as it was revealed centuries later to Joseph Smith.

The point I am making is that Nephi would require from you to accept and perform certain things to prove you are truly "regenerated", according to his definition of regeneration.

If a definition of regeneration entails believing doctrines or performing rites that we don't believe or perform, then we are not regenerated... no matter how clear we show how our lives have changed.

In contrast, if a definition of regeneration is based on an objective change in our way of living, then we can prove Nephi and everyone else that we have been regenerated.

The most startling proof will be our Resurrection. If you believe that we will be resurrected then you must believe in the Cross. It's only possible if the Cross happened. Allah has proven that he is a god of death with no power over death.

 

[synergy]

But such assumption is wrong. It violates reality.
Reality shows that physical death was always been part of living organisms, including men. It is embedded in our DNA.

It was embedded in our DNA by God only after Adam sinned according to Genesis. If you don't believe that Genesis is inspired then you believe in a god of Myths. So now your Allah is not only a god of death but also a god of Myths, as I suspected all along.

And Not just biological death... look at any form of destruction and re-creation in nature! Mountains are flattened. Oceans disappear. Stars die or explode, planets get roasted with any living organism dwelling in them.

This is NOT evil. This is recycling, movement, re-creation. It is part of God's creative process. It is good.


Same with the Bible. We view it entirely as holy, including the instructions to kill men, women, children, girls (except those able for reproduction) and animals.

If the NT had been written in time of war and in a position for Christians to defend themselves and win, OF COURSE the NT would have included military instructions.

Again, the Quran does not have its cut throat verses abrogated as the NT has already done for the OT violent verses. Facts are facts.

This is because the principle of defense is eternal, and just, and merciful. And this is why you can't bring a single verse of the NT that teaches that those instructions given by Moses or Samuel were evil.

There are countless violence-abrogating verses dispersed across the entire NT. Read up on the Sermon on the Mount. Doesn't the Cross mean anything to you? What "principle of defense" did Christ employ on the Cross????

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It was embedded in our DNA by God only after Adam sinned according to Genesis. If you don't believe that Genesis is inspired then you believe in a god of Myths.

Believing that mortality was embedded in our DNA after the sin of a man is a myth.
Trilobites and dinosaurs died millions of years BEFORE any man could sin.
While Adam and Eve were alive, millions of their cells (and bacteria within their guts) had to die in order to keep their bodies working.

You are believing in a myth, my friend. It is about time for you to learn the value of science as a tool of God's revelation.
Any religious belief that violates objective reality or reason or science has a name: superstition.

So now your Allah is not only a god of death but also a god of Myths, as I suspected all along.

Again, the Quran does not have its cut throat verses abrogated as the NT has already done for the OT violent verses. Facts are facts.

The fact is that you have not shown the verses in the NT where Samuel or Moses are called false prophets, or the divine authorship of their instructions is denied.
However, you insist in that the Quran is false because it conveys similar military instructions for war time.
Do you see the inconsistency of your claim?

The principles of self-defense that underpin the military instructions in the Tanakh were not abrogated in the New Testament . Military defense persists, and if you were a president of a country, you would use it whenever justified.

There are countless violence-abrogating verses dispersed across the entire NT.

We are not talking about violence. Was God a violent God?
We are talking about self defense using military means. That is justice and love for our beloved ones.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Read Hebrews 11 and how the OT Prophets looked forward to that promise.

I have read Hebrews 11.
The promise to each person mentioned in that chapter (Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc) is not the promise of being transformed into a new person.
There is no single verse in the Tanakh that indicates that God ever made such was the promise.
The promises were different:
Abraham never saw his descendance being as numerous as the grains of sand or as the stars. Noah never saw God keeping his promise of not “ flooding the earth”. Moses never experienced entering the Promise Land. David never saw his seed, the Mesiah.
So all these promises have nothing to do with their spiritual rebirth or regeneration.

In the OT, God continuously calls sinners to an immediate action: repent and turn away from the old ways (regeneration). This is not something that could wait for an event in the distant future.
“Repent and turn from your evil ways. Why should you die, O house of Israel?” Ezekiel 33:11

As Psalm 51 shows, David was not expecting to be regenerated 800 years later or so.

12 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a resolute spirit within me.
13 Do not cast me out from your presence
or take away from me your Holy Spirit.
14 Restore to me the joy of being saved,
and grant me the strength of a generous spirit.

 

[synergy]

Believing that mortality was embedded in our DNA after the sin of a man is a myth.
Trilobites and dinosaurs died millions of years BEFORE any man could sin.
While Adam and Eve were alive, millions of their cells (and bacteria within their guts) had to die in order to keep their bodies working.

You are believing in a myth, my friend. It is about time for you to learn the value of science as a tool of God's revelation.
Any religious belief that violates objective reality or reason or science has a name: superstition.

The Bible talks about death of humans, not about your trilobites or any other animal. You are misreading Bible verses by thinking that whatever the Bible says about humans also goes for animals. That is clearly false. The Bible does not expound on the life or death conditions of animals. You are just assuming stuff. Where the Bible is silent I prefer to stay silent.

The fact is that you have not shown the verses in the NT where Samuel or Moses are called false prophets, or the divine authorship of their instructions is denied.
However, you insist in that the Quran is false because it conveys similar military instructions for war time.
Do you see the inconsistency of your claim?

The principles of self-defense that underpin the military instructions in the Tanakh were not abrogated in the New Testament . Military defense persists, and if you were a president of a country, you would use it whenever justified.

What "principles of self-defense" did Christ employ on the Cross???? Doesn't the Cross mean anything to you?

We are not talking about violence. Was God a violent God?
We are talking about self defense using military means. That is justice and love for our beloved ones.

If the Quran's exhortation to cut another's throat is not violence to you then I strongly suggest that you move out of your present neighborhood whose cut throat practices has desensitized you to those acts of violence.

 

[synergy]

I have read Hebrews 11.
The promise to each person mentioned in that chapter (Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc) is not the promise of being transformed into a new person.
There is no single verse in the Tanakh that indicates that God ever made such was the promise.
The promises were different:
Abraham never saw his descendance being as numerous as the grains of sand or as the stars. Noah never saw God keeping his promise of not “ flooding the earth”. Moses never experienced entering the Promise Land. David never saw his seed, the Mesiah.
So all these promises have nothing to do with their spiritual rebirth or regeneration.

In the OT, God continuously calls sinners to an immediate action: repent and turn away from the old ways (regeneration). This is not something that could wait for an event in the distant future.
“Repent and turn from your evil ways. Why should you die, O house of Israel?” Ezekiel 33:11

In Hebrews 11:39, the promise referred to can be understood as the ultimate fulfillment of God's redemptive plan, specifically through the gift of the Holy Spirit, who embodies the promise of God. This interpretation is supported when we connect the passage to scriptures like Ephesians 1:13, Acts 2:33, and Galatians 3:14, which reveal that the Holy Spirit is the promised gift given to believers through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit as the Fulfillment of the Promise

1. Ephesians 1:13:

"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit."

Here, the Holy Spirit is identified as the promised gift, sealing believers in Christ and guaranteeing their inheritance. The saints in Hebrews 11 lived in anticipation of this promise, which was fulfilled in Christ and confirmed through the outpouring of the Spirit.

2. Acts 2:33:

"Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."

After Jesus' ascension, the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, fulfilling God’s promise to empower His people and dwell within them. This marked the culmination of what the faithful of the Old Testament longed for—the intimate presence of God among His people.

3. Galatians 3:14:

"So that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."

The "blessing of Abraham" extends to all nations through Christ and finds its ultimate expression in the gift of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit unites believers with Christ and assures them of their place in God’s family, fulfilling the promises made to the patriarchs.

Connecting Hebrews 11:39 to the Promise of the Spirit:

The saints in Hebrews 11 lived by faith, trusting in God’s promises, yet they did not receive the fullness of what was promised during their lifetimes. The fulfillment came through Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit represents:

God's presence dwelling within believers (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

The fulfillment of the covenant, enabling believers to walk in faith and obedience.

The guarantee of eternal life and the heavenly inheritance (Ephesians 1:14).

The Spirit of the Promise:

The faithful in Hebrews 11 lived in anticipation of God's ultimate gift—the Holy Spirit, who brings the reality of God's kingdom into the lives of believers. Through the Spirit, the promises made to Abraham, Moses, and others are fulfilled:

Abraham's promise of blessing to all nations is fulfilled as the Spirit is poured out on both Jews and Gentiles.

The hope of a "better country" (Hebrews 11:16) is realized as believers become citizens of God’s kingdom through the Spirit.

The unity of God's people (Hebrews 11:40) is made possible as the Spirit draws together saints from all ages in Christ.

Summary:

The promise referred to in Hebrews 11:39 is ultimately fulfilled in the Holy Spirit, as seen in Ephesians 1:13, Acts 2:33, and Galatians 3:14. The Spirit is the tangible fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan, dwelling in believers and sealing them for eternal life. The faithful of the Old Testament longed for this promise, living by faith in what was to come, and through Christ, they, along with us, are made perfect as part of God’s eternal plan.

As Psalm 51 shows, David was not expecting to be regenerated 800 years later or so.

12 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a resolute spirit within me.
13 Do not cast me out from your presence
or take away from me your Holy Spirit.
14 Restore to me the joy of being saved,
and grant me the strength of a generous spirit.

When did that actually happen? Produce the evidence.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Bible talks about death of humans, not about your trilobites or any other animal.

That’s exactly why we should read the Big Book of Nature in addition to reading the books of the Bible.

You are misreading Bible verses by thinking that whatever the Bible says about humans also goes for animals. That is clearly false.

It is not. God created our cells with the same basic biology of any other animal cell.
If someone believes that the body of trilobites were created to die but the body of humans was created to be eternal, such belief is no more than superstition.

The Bible does not expound on the life or death conditions of animals. You are just assuming stuff.

I’m not assuming stuff. Fossils are there, genomics is there, and they speak as loudly and truly as any revelation from God.

Where the Bible is silent I prefer to stay silent.

Wrong strategy.
Wherever the Bible is silent (and whereever the Bible is not silent), we have from God reason, and science.
Any religious belief that is against reality as revealed by science has a name: superstition.

What "principles of self-defense" did Christ employ on the Cross???? Doesn't the Cross mean anything to you?

The application of Military self-defense is appropriate when it is feasible and reasonable.
You will have no issue in shooting the person who is about to kill your family.

If the Quran's exhortation to cut another's throat is not violence…

Of course it is not violence. Do you think that Yahweh of the Old Testament was violent?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

When did that actually happen? Produce the evidence.

Haven’t you read the story of David? It happened over the years that followed his repentance. It happened during his life on earth.
He was restored and could exclaim, inspired by God, words that only a regenerated person can utter:

“The Lord has rewarded me for my righteousness;
because my hands were pure he has recompensed me.
For I have kept the ways of the Lord
and have not followed the path of wickedness.
His laws are clearly known to me,
and I have not failed to observe his decrees.
I was blameless in his sight,
and I kept myself free from sin.
Therefore, the Lord has rewarded my righteousness,
the cleanness of my hands in his sight.
(2 Samuel 22:21-24)

 

[civic]

In the OT, God continuously calls sinners to an immediate action: repent and turn away from the old ways (regeneration). This is not something that could wait for an event in the distant future.
“Repent and turn from your evil ways. Why should you die, O house of Israel?” Ezekiel 33:11

Repent and turn away from your old ways is called repentance not regeneration. Regeneration is the new birth, born again which did not occur until the day of Pentecost. Notice below regeneration is not tied to repentance.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

The new birth and the gospel.


Born of Water John 3

John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.

The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.

The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in the new birth God is the Active One and the one who causes the birth but we must believe to be saved, regenerated.

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom, believing and not believing

summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again, regeneration )

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Repent and turn away from your old ways is called repentance not regeneration. Regeneration is the new birth,

If you are born again, you do not walk the same path, but an entirely new path.
So, regeneration is about turning away from the old, and turn to God, day after day after day.
There is no repentance without fruits of repentance. No repentance without new birth.
Would God forgive a person who is not willing to live differently?

Theologians seem to enjoy making things much more complicated that they are, to justify the time and budget spent studying Theology, and to make them look as more important than the humble peasant who truly trusts God.

God has always regenerated people at all times, in all nations, across all religions. This is what God does. Praise to God, the author of our faith!

born again which did not occur until the day of Pentecost. Notice below regeneration is not tied to repentance.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Tied to God’s mercy, which has always even present in the world

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Tied to the Word of God, which has always be present in the world.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

Tied to the Word of Truth, which has been always present in the world.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Tied to the mercy of God, and the Holy Spirit, which has been always present in the world.

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

God’s fatherhood has always been present in the world.

The metaphor of a new birth was not present in Scriptures before Christ. That does not mean that people were not transformed or changed before. Rigtheous people are constantly mentioned in the Old Testament.
Note that I use the term “transformed” or “changed” as you use the term “regenerate”.
All those terms mean the same thing: that man turns away from an old way to walk in a new way.

 

[Studyman]

Repent and turn away from your old ways is called repentance not regeneration.

There is no "rebirth" or "New Man" or "born again" without repentance, at least according to the Jesus "of the Bible". As the Scriptures Pancho posted from the God Inspired Words of the Bible have shown you.

Ez. 18: 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away (Repented) from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, "he shall not die".

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, "every one" according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you "a new heart and a new spirit": (Born again) for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore (Because of this undeniable Truth) turn yourselves, and live ye.

And the Lord's Christ as HE walked the earth, taught us to "Live By" these very Words of the God.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And when He had grown in the knowledge and wisdom of God and was ready to fulfill His Ministry from God, He taught the very same thing.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And HE continued this preaching of rebirth, the requirement for Salvation which begins with Repentance, until the day the mainstream preachers of His Time, who Professed to know God, murdered Him.

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay ( that means no, those mingling their own blood with sacrifices were not sinners above others) but, except ye repent, ye shall "all" likewise perish.

So according to the Jesus "of the Bible", who was filled with the Same Spirit that was in Ezekiel, there is no rebirth without repentance. As Paul also teaches both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was "not disobedient" unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, (Jews) and then to the Gentiles, that they (All) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (worthy) for repentance.

So the Law and Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles all are teaching that to be renewed in the Spirit of our mind, to be born again, regenerated, means to "Cast away from you all your transgressions", AKA Repentance.

And this same Jesus also said;

John 14: 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth "me not" keepeth "not my" sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

If "Got Questions" or Kenneth Copeland or some other religious business or sect doesn't bring this teaching, it is because the Love of God doesn't abide in them, even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.

Regeneration is the new birth, born again which did not occur until the day of Pentecost. Notice below regeneration is not tied to repentance.

But Civic, if a man reads what is actually written in Scriptures, he will find there is NO PENTECOST, without Feast of Unleavened Bread and the 7 Sabbaths that follow. And there is NO FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD without Passover. And there is NO PASSOVER without repentance, symbolized by placing the blood "Life" of the Lamb of God on the two door posts, ( arms and legs, works and walk) and Lintel, ( mind, thoughts) As it is also written, ""Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus".

If placing the blood aka, "Life" of Christ in our actions and thoughts, which would literally mean turning away from our transgressions aka "repentance", wasn't a requirement, then both the Pharisees and the Romans would have been gathered with the faithful obedient on Pentecost in Acts. And all Egyptians would have followed Moses into the wilderness. In fact, the entire planet would be "reborn" at the death of the Passover. But as it turned out, according to Scriptures+ only those men who participated in the Passover, "Kept the Feast" of Unleavened bread which literally means Repentance or turning away from Leaven, AKA Sin, and counted the days correctly as instructed by Moses, (Seven Sabbaths) were given the Holy Spirit of God. And Peter confirms this.

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given "to them that obey him". (doeth that which is lawful and right)

What if Jesus and the Words of God HE instructed men to Live By, are telling you the truth, and it is the religious business of "Got Questions", and those preachers who call Jesus Lord, Lord at the "BBS" and elsewhere, who are the deceivers?

I mean, if you Love the Jesus "of the Bible" didn't HE say you would be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only?

How can I be repentant without regeneration and how can I be regenerated without repentance?

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Not by man's righteousness, which is no better than a filthy rag. But as Paul teaches.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not man) hath before ordained that we "should walk in them). As did the Lord's Christ.

 

[Studyman]

If you are born again, you do not walk the same path, but an entirely new path.
So, regeneration is about turning away from the old, and turn to God, day after day after day.
There is no repentance without fruits of repentance. No repentance without new birth.
Would God forgive a person who is not willing to live differently?

Theologians seem to enjoy making things much more complicated that they are, to justify the time and budget spent studying Theology, and to make them look as more important than the humble peasant who truly trusts God.

God has always regenerated people at all times, in all nations, across all religions. This is what God does. Praise to God, the author of our faith!



Tied to God’s mercy, which has always even present in the world

Tied to the Word of God, which has always be present in the world.

Tied to the Word of Truth, which has been always present in the world.

Tied to the mercy of God, and the Holy Spirit, which has been always present in the world.

God’s fatherhood has always been present in the world.

The metaphor of a new birth was not present in Scriptures before Christ. That does not mean that people were not transformed or changed before. Rigtheous people are constantly mentioned in the Old Testament.
Note that I use the term “transformed” or “changed” as you use the term “regenerate”.
All those terms mean the same thing: that man turns away from an old way to walk in a new way.

How true Pancho.

Even Abraham was instructed to leave his old life onto a life he had never known before.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And what was Abram's response?

4 So Abram departed, "as the LORD had spoken unto him"; and Lot went with him: and Abram was "seventy and five years old" when he departed out of Haran.

Imagine the commitment and Faith in God to turn away from your old life of 75 years, unto a life you had never experienced before. There is no greater example of regeneration that this, in my view. I receive much hope through these examples god had written for my admonition.

And didn't the Lord's Christ instruct us to do the same exact thing Abram was instructed to do?

Matt. 16: 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his (old) life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his (old) life for my sake shall find it.

How is this any different than God's message to Abraham and his children.

Truly Jesus and the God of Abraham were of One Mind.

Thank You God, for your infinite mercy and wisdom, sent to me through your Son Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is no "rebirth" or "New Man" or "born again" without repentance, at least according to the Jesus "of the Bible". As the Scriptures Pancho posted from the God Inspired Words of the Bible have shown you…
…
But Civic, if a man reads what is actually written in Scriptures, he will find there is NO PENTECOST, without Feast of Unleavened Bread and the 7 Sabbaths that follow. And there is NO FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD without Passover. And there is NO PASSOVER without repentance, symbolized by placing the blood "Life" of the Lamb of God on the two door posts, ( arms and legs, works and walk) and Lintel, ( mind, thoughts) As it is also written, ""Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus".

Enlightening post. Thanks for sharing these insights, Studyman.
Some theologians enjoy chopping God themes in small pieces and selling them separately, instead of teaching the big picture.

For example:
Calvin makes a distinction between “common grace” and “saving grace”
@synergy, of the teacher he derives his post from, makes a distinction between “divine forgiveness” and “salvific forgiveness”
On the same line, @civic separates “repentance” from “regeneration” or “salvation” and many others separate “faith” from “works”. They make a distinction between the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost from the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in David’ heart.
I have found in Internet people who separate “grace” from “mercy”… people who say that stories about Jesus healing the sick have nothing to do with Jesus saving the sinner… People who think that the story of God forgiving the Ninivites has nothing to do with salvation of the souls…

These people, from theologians to dear fellow Forum members, enjoy debating on terms and the nuances of the concepts those terms refer to.
They avoid, however, discussing how their theorems apply to concrete scenarios, real-life stories, because when they have tried, their theology has crumbled.
Their theology is a set of failed tactics to win chess games. They end up losing the match and, more importantly, losing a good opponent.

 

[civic]

Enlightening post. Thanks for sharing these insights, Studyman.
Some theologians enjoy chopping God themes in small pieces and selling them separately, instead of teaching the big picture.

For example:
Calvin makes a distinction between “common grace” and “saving grace”
@synergy, of the teacher he derives his post from, makes a distinction between “divine forgiveness” and “salvific forgiveness”
On the same line, @civic separates “repentance” from “regeneration” or “salvation” and many others separate “faith” from “works”. They make a distinction between the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost from the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in David’ heart.
I have found in Internet people who separate “grace” from “mercy”… people who say that stories about Jesus healing the sick have nothing to do with Jesus saving the sinner… People who think that the story of God forgiving the Ninivites has nothing to do with salvation of the souls…

These people, from theologians to dear fellow Forum members, enjoy debating on terms and the nuances of the concepts those terms refer to.
They avoid, however, discussing how their theorems apply to concrete scenarios, real-life stories, because when they have tried, their theology has crumbled.
Their theology is a set of failed tactics to win chess games. They end up losing the match and, more importantly, losing a good opponent.

Grace and mercy are two sides of the same coin. Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve and mercy is not giving us what we do deserve.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Grace and mercy are two sides of the same coin. Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve and mercy is not giving us what we do deserve.

I agree and appreciate a lot the way you present it.
One thing is to see two different sides of the same coin, and a different thing is to sell them as if they were two coins.
In the same way there cannot be a coin without its two sides, there cannot be salvation without repentance and regeneration.

Any time the Scriptures present a case of a man who was forgiven, the author wanted us to understand that his life changed. By the same token any time the Bible presents the case of a man whose life changed, the author wants us to take for granted that he was forgiven.

 

[civic]

Enlightening post. Thanks for sharing these insights, Studyman.
Some theologians enjoy chopping God themes in small pieces and selling them separately, instead of teaching the big picture.

For example:
Calvin makes a distinction between “common grace” and “saving grace”
@synergy, of the teacher he derives his post from, makes a distinction between “divine forgiveness” and “salvific forgiveness”
On the same line, @civic separates “repentance” from “regeneration” or “salvation” and many others separate “faith” from “works”. They make a distinction between the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost from the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in David’ heart.
I have found in Internet people who separate “grace” from “mercy”… people who say that stories about Jesus healing the sick have nothing to do with Jesus saving the sinner… People who think that the story of God forgiving the Ninivites has nothing to do with salvation of the souls…

These people, from theologians to dear fellow Forum members, enjoy debating on terms and the nuances of the concepts those terms refer to.
They avoid, however, discussing how their theorems apply to concrete scenarios, real-life stories, because when they have tried, their theology has crumbled.
Their theology is a set of failed tactics to win chess games. They end up losing the match and, more importantly, losing a good opponent.

I'm not saying in the salvation process it doesn't involve repentance, faith, forgiveness etc.....

All I was pointing out is there there are people in the bible who were forgiven but not necessarily saved. Not all of the 12 disciples were saved yet Jesus called each one of them to follow and serve Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm not saying in the salvation process it doesn't involve repentance, faith, forgiveness etc.....

All I was pointing out is there there are people in the bible who were forgiven but not necessarily saved. Not all of the 12 disciples were saved yet Jesus called each one of them to follow and serve Him.

Who do you have in mind?
If Judas was not saved, it is because he did not repent. Peter did.
We cannot say that a person who God has forgiven is in hell, or that a person who God has not forgiven is in heaven.

 

[Studyman]

Enlightening post. Thanks for sharing these insights, Studyman.
Some theologians enjoy chopping God themes in small pieces and selling them separately, instead of teaching the big picture.

For example:
Calvin makes a distinction between “common grace” and “saving grace”
@synergy, of the teacher he derives his post from, makes a distinction between “divine forgiveness” and “salvific forgiveness”
On the same line, @civic separates “repentance” from “regeneration” or “salvation” and many others separate “faith” from “works”. They make a distinction between the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost from the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in David’ heart.
I have found in Internet people who separate “grace” from “mercy”… people who say that stories about Jesus healing the sick have nothing to do with Jesus saving the sinner… People who think that the story of God forgiving the Ninivites has nothing to do with salvation of the souls…

These people, from theologians to dear fellow Forum members, enjoy debating on terms and the nuances of the concepts those terms refer to.
They avoid, however, discussing how their theorems apply to concrete scenarios, real-life stories, because when they have tried, their theology has crumbled.
Their theology is a set of failed tactics to win chess games. They end up losing the match and, more importantly, losing a good opponent.

Sadly this is true with the religious sects and businesses of this world in my view. I believe it has been true since the Tower of Babel when God separated them all from joining together as one, creating in their own mind, their own way to eternity, when they are really condemning themselves and others they convert, to eternal death. That is, a death from which there is no return. I think Jesus speaks to the Path of these worldly religions which is entered in by "many" who call Him Lord, Lord in Matt. 7. Shall a man not take these Words of the Christ seriously?

They all have their marketing strategies and religious slogans to attract contributing members to their specific religious business, without which their business would fail. But in the end, their righteousness doesn't exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. And Jesus did say, "Be ye not therefore like unto them".

I don't believe I am any better than the Pharisees, or the rebellious examples God gave me in the Scriptures. If I hear His Words, and then choose to reject the Wisdom and Righteousness of God, as they did, shall I not receive the same reward? Is this not why the examples were given to me in the first place, so that I don't yield myself to Sin as they did? Both Jesus and Paul teach that it was.

Shall I condemn or place in danger my family and friends by adopting this world's religious sects and businesses and "living by" their traditions and philosophies, which cause those who adopt them to Transgress God's Commandments? Is that how Jesus Loved me?

I think not.

These discussions are good for men to have, for edification and growing in the knowledge of God. But I don't think God's Word should be used to pit one disobedient religious business or sect against another disobedient religious business of sect.

Imagine a world in which men yielded themselves to God with the same Love and Commitment Jesus exhibited. There would be no need for thousands of different religious businesses and social clubs, all competing against each other for contributing members to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. But alas, we are in the time of testing, and as Jesus said, "Offences must come". I need to bring myself in remembrance to this sometimes, to remind me that God's way is far greater, and His Wisdom and Mercy, is far greater than mine.

Thank you Pancho, for your encouraging words, and your truthful post.

I hope you have a great day.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period.

My friend, in Ezekiel 18 God urges people to seek repentance and regeneration now, not in a distant future.
There is no prediction here. There is an urgent call to action.

Ezekiel 18:31,32 (New King James)

Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit... For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

I have reviewed several translations. In all of them God's call is not for a distant future. It is an urgent call about what Ezekiel's audience must do at that time.
Please think: Does it make sense for God to ask Israelites to cast away, say, their violence, if their heart or spirit would continue to be violent? How could God urge for repentance without urging for a change in heart and spirit?

So, the idea that people at the time of Ezekiel could not be regenerated has been refuted.