Peterlag
Well-known member
May I add to this there's no teaching anywhere that even suggest we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
ALLAH TORTURES JEWS AND CHRISTIANS IN PLACE OF MUSLIMS
The aim of this post is to gather together in one place the different versions of a report attributed to Muhammad where he claims that his deity will torture Jews and Christians in hell for the sins committed by Muslims. The purpose for me doing so is to show just how sadistic, evil, and wicked Muhammad’s Allah truly is.
I begin with the following narrative:
Superiority of the believers in the Oneness of Allah and the punishment of the Jews and Christians
8) Narrated Abu Musa: Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: UNLOAD the sins from them AND PUT THE SAME OVER the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.
(This Hadith IS SOUND and mentioned in Mustadrak of Hakim). (110 Hadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith), translated by Syed Masood-ul-Hasan, revision and commentaries by Ibrahim m. Kunna [Darussalam Publishers and Distributors], pp. 19-20 https://islamicstudies.info/hadith/110-Ahadith-Qudsi.pdf – see also https://ahadith.co.uk/110ahadithqudsi.php; capital and underline emphasis mine)
There’s more:
432. Abu Musa Al-Ash’ari reported: Messenger of Allah said, “On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will deliver to every Muslim, a Jew or a Christian and say: ‘This is YOUR RANSOM from Hell-fire.”‘
Another narration is: Messenger of Allah said, “There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with sins as heavy as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them”.
[Muslim]. (Al-Imam Abu Zakariya Yahya bin Sharaf An-Nawawi Ad-Dimashqi, Riyad as-Salihin (The Meadows of the Righteous), The Book of Miscellany, 51. Chapter: On Hope https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:432; bold and capital emphasis mine)
(20) CHAPTER. Disbelievers are sent to Hell as SACRIFICE to the Muslims
1937. Abu Musa narrated that the Messenger of Allah said: “When it is the Day of Resurrection, Allah will deliver every Muslim a Jew or Christian and say: ‘THAT IS YOUR SACRIFICE FROM HELL-FIRE.’” (The Translation of the Meanings of Summarized Sahih Muslim (Arabic–English), Compiled by Al-Hafiz Zakiuddin Abdul-Azim Al-Mundhiri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition: February 2000], Volume 2, 62– The Book Of Repentance And Allah’s Great Mercy, pp. 1033-1034)
And here is a different translation of the above hadith, along with a couple of others from Sahih Muslim:
Chapter 8: THROWING OF NON-BELIEVERS IN HELL-FIRE FOR BELIEVERS AS DIVINE GRACE AND MERCY
Abu Musa’ reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665 https://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=037&translator=2&start=0&number=6665)
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
Abu Burda reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah’s Apostle? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
This next one is even more heinous and sadistic since it has Allah laughing over the fact that Jews and Christians will be tortured in hell in the place of Muhammadans:
In a slightly more detailed version, Abu Musa leads us to an explanation of the reason for God’s laughter:
The Prophet said: “On the Day of Resurrection our Lord, to Him belong glory and greatness, shall be revealed to us, laughing (yataglla dahikan). And He will say: ‘Rejoice, you Muslims! For I have REPLACED each one of you destined to go to Hell with a Jew or a Christian’.”17 (Livnat Holtzman, “‘Does God Really Laugh?” – Appropriate and Inappropriate Descriptions of God in Islamic Traditionalist Theology,’” Laughter in the Middle Ages and Early Modern Times (Fundamentals of Medieval and Early Modern Culture), ed. Albrecht Classen [De Gruyter, Berlin/New York; 1st edition, 2010], Chapter 2, p. 172; bold and capital emphasis mine)
17 Al‐Agurri, Kitab al‐sariah, 295, hadith no. 641; Al‐Agurri, Kitab al‐tasdiq, 76. (Ibid.)
The foregoing Islamic scholar quotes a lengthier version of the aforementioned hadith elsewhere:
The Messenger of God said: When the Day of Resurrection comes God will bring all the nations together in the same plateau. And when He sees fit to separate between His creatures, He will present to each nation [the idol] that they used to worship. The people will follow their idols until they will be pushed into the fire. Then our Lord the Blessed and Exalted will come to us as we stand in a high place, and say: ‘Who are you?’ and we will say: ‘We are the Muslims.’ He will say: ‘What are you waiting for you? They (i.e. the Muslims) will say: ‘We are waiting for our Lord the Blessed and Exalted.’ He will say: ‘How will you recognize Him when you have never seen Him?’ And they will say: ‘He has no equal.’ Then, He will be revealed to them laughing, and say: ‘Rejoice, oh you Muslims! For I have already replaced each one of you destined to go to Hell with a Jew or a Christian.’59 (Holtzman, Anthropomorphism in Islam: The Challenge of Traditionalism (700-1350) [Edinburgh University Press LTD, 2019], 1. The Narrator and the Narrative: A Literary Analysis of Ahadith al-Sifat, pp. 33-34; bold emphasis mine)
She cites other versions of this report:
When the Day of Resurrection arrives, [the idols] that each nation used to worship in this world will be presented before them. Each nation will approach [the idol] that they used to worship in this world, and only the monotheists (ahl al-tawhid) will remain. Someone will then say to them: ‘What are you waiting for, when everyone else has already gone?’65 And they we will answer: ‘We have a lord whom we used to worship in the material world, but we have never seen him.’ They will be asked: ‘Will you know him when you see him?’ They will say: ‘Yes.’ They will be asked: ‘So, how will you recognize him, when you have never seen him?’ They will answer: ‘Because there is nothing similar to him.’ Suddenly, the curtain will be drawn in front of them, and they will see God, the mighty and powerful. Immediately they will prostrate themselves on the ground – all, but a group of people who will want to prostrate themselves but will be unable to do so, because their backs will be stuck and erect like cattle’s horns. This [scene] will be exactly as described in the Quranic verse: ‘On the day when the dread event unfolds and they are told to prostrate themselves, they will be unable.66 So God will say to them: ‘Raise your heads up, because for each and every one of you I marked A SUBSTITUTE who is either a Jew or a Christian, to be sent INSTEAD OF YOU to Hell.’67 (Ibid., p. 36; bold and capital emphasis mine)
According to his avowal, Sa’id ibn Abi Burda accompanied his father in the delegation to the caliph al-Walid. As Ahmad ibn Hanbal remarked, Sa’id never denied that ‘Umar asked his father to swear on the authenticity of the hadith that he recounted to him. Following the material in Ahmad ibn Habnbal’s Musnad and Muslim’s Sahih, Ibn ‘Asakir added that Sa’id never denied nor affirmed this incident.98 According to Sa’id, after completing his business with ‘Umar, Abu Burda awakened Sa’id in the middle of the night and led him through the streets of Damascus. They arrived at ‘Umar’s house, which was situated between the vegetable market and the cheese market, and knocked on the gate of the house. The gatekeeper informed Abu Burda that ‘Umar had already retired to bed, but Abu Burda insisted on informing ‘Umar that he was waiting for him at the gate. Soon after, permission was granted for Abu Burda and his son to enter the house. ‘Is something wrong, Abu Burda?’ – asked ‘Umar whose sleep was interrupted. ‘Everything is fine’ – answered Abu Burda. ‘What is that you want?’ – asked ‘Umar. Abu Burda explained: ‘I finished my business, but I remembered a hadith that my father had told me. And here it is: The Messenger of God said: When the people will be gathered for Judgment Day, a Jew or a Christian will be brought, and [a voice] will say: Oh Believer! This is the SACRIFICE that will REDEEM YOU from Hell!’99 ‘Umar asked: ‘Did you hear it from your father?’ Abu Burda confirmed this… (Ibid., pp. 43-44; capital emphasis mine)
I [Qudama ibn Hamata al-Dabbi] was sitting at ‘Umar ‘Abd al-‘Aziz’s when suddenly Abu Burda, the son of Abu Musa came in, and told ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz that he once heard his father tell the following hadith on the authority of the Prophet, who said, ‘In the Day of Resurrection, the Jew and the Christian will be brought and a voice will say: “Oh Muslim, this is THE SACRIFICE that will REDEEM YOU from Hell”.’ ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz said to Abu Burda: ‘Allah, there is no god but Him! Did you hear your father tell this hadith on the authority of the Messenger of God?’ [Abu Burda] said: ‘Allah, there is no god but Him! My father indeed told me this hadith, and he in his turn heard it from the Messenger of God.’ [Qudama said]: I then saw ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz prostrate himself in adoration three times.107 (Ibid., p. 45; capital emphasis mine)
59. Al-Ajurri, Kitab al-Shari’a, p. 279, hadith 608; Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 32, pp. 422-4, hadith 19654; Ibn Khuzayma, Kitab al-Tawhid, pp. 577-8, hadith 340; al-Darimi, Radd, p. 92, hadith 180; Gimaret, Dieu a l’image de l’homme, p. 268…
67. Al-Ajurri, Kitab al-Shari’a, p. 278, hadith 607. For a different version, see al-Ajurri, Kitab al-tasdiq, p. 80; al-Tabarani, Al-Mu’jam al-Kabir, vol. 9, p. 418…
98. Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq, vol. 21, p. 166.
99. Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 32, pp. 375-6, hadith 196000.
100. Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq, vol. 26, p. 47 (the biography of Abu Burda).
101. Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 32, pp. 375-6, hadith 196000.
102. Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq, vol. 25, pp. 134-5 (the biography of Talha ibn Yahya Talha ibn ‘Ubayd Allah)…
104. Ibn Abi Hatim, al-Jarh wa’l-ta’dil, vol. 7, pp. 127-8; Ibn Habban, al-Thiqat, vol. 7, p. 341 …
107. Ibn ‘Asakir, Tarikh Dimashq, vol. 49, pp. 301-2. (Ibid., pp. 61-64)
If the foregoing doesn’t convince the readers that Muhammad’s Allah is actually Satan himself, and not the God revealed in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, then I am afraid nothing will.
FURTHER READING
Islam’s Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement And the Ransoming of Sinners
Allah’s Unbound Cruelty and Injustice
Is Allah Impotent and Untrustworthy?
Islam’s Divine Insurance Scam
Reexamining Islam’s Divine Insurance Scam Pt.1, Pt. 2
Islam’s Morally Grotesque Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement
Addressing Williams’ False Allegations Pt. 6
Islam’s Doctrine of Imputation of Righteousness and Vicarious Death
No Atonement in Islam? Responding to Another Typical Muslim ObjectionDo They Bear Another’s Burdens Or Not?
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Islam’s Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement
And the Ransoming of Sinners
Sam Shamoun
The heart and soul of Christianity is the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19).
Christ, out of his own free will, died in order to ransom sinners from the penalty of sin, which is death and judgment. Christians believe in the testimony of God’s inspired Word, the Holy Bible, that Christ did this in order to reconcile God’s perfect, infinite justice and love. (Cf. Ezekiel 18:4,20; Mark 10:45; Matthew 26:28; John 10:17-18; Romans 3:25-26; 5:6,8; 6:23; 8:31-39; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 5:25-33; Philippians 2:5-8; 1 Peter 2:24, 3:18.)
Muslims strongly object to the idea of "one soul carrying the burden of another," as exemplified in the Qur'an in many places (see below), and therefore reject the thought that God would punish Jesus for the sins committed by others in order to maintain his justice and love. They view this as unjust since Christ, being sinless, didn’t deserve to die on behalf of sinful individuals. As Muslim scholar Dr. Jamal Badawi says:
The idea of vicarious sacrifice explains how God reconciled his attributes of mercy and justice and the wages of sin is death. Is it just that all humans coming from Adam be born with the stigma of sin because of Adam's mistake? Is it just to condemn a human in advance, even an innocent baby? Adam was created weak and imperfect and God knew this, if he sees a repentant human, is it just for God to say no, you must be perfect to enter paradise? Is it just that the innocent be killed and tortured to release the guilty? To say that the pure Jesus was killed to save the guilty does not make sense ...
Is it merciful for God, knowing man's weakness, to ignore repentance and require bloodshed? Is it merciful for God to kill his own Son? Is it not more merciful that God simply forgives sin without this blood sacrifice? It appears that Paul's theory is inconsistent with either the divine qualities of justice and mercy. (Source)
The focus of this paper is not to correct or address Dr. Badawi’s gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the theology of Paul and Christianity in general. Nor is it our aim to answer Badawi’s misplaced questions and straw men characterizations of our faith. The above link addresses Dr. Badawi’s arguments, as do the following articles: [1], [2]
What we would like to do here is present the Muslim view of vicarious sacrifice and substitutionary atonement. It may come as a surprise to some of our readers to find that the Quran and the Islamic traditions confirm the idea that Allah ransoms sinners by punishing others for their misdeeds.
We begin with the following Quranic passage:
Then We gave him the good tidings of a prudent boy; and when he had reached the age of running with him, he said, ‘My son, I see in a dream that I shall sacrifice thee; consider, what thinkest thou?’ He said, ‘My father, do as thou art bidden; thou shalt find me, God willing, one of the steadfast.’ When they had surrendered, and he flung him upon his brow, We called unto him, ‘Abraham, thou hast confirmed the vision; even so We recompense the good-doers. This is indeed the manifest trial.’ And We RANSOMED him with a MIGHTY SACRIFICE, and left for him among the later folk. ‘Peace be upon Abraham!’ S. 37:101-109 A.J. Arberry
According to the above, Allah ransomed Abraham’s son from being sacrificed by personally providing a mighty sacrifice. Note how others translate the phrase, "mighty sacrifice":
"a tremendous victim." Pickthall
"a momentous sacrifice." Y. Ali
"a Feat sacrifice." Shakir
"a tremendous sacrifice." Asad
"a great sacrifice." Sarwar
"a Splendid victim." T.B. Irving
"a mighty victim." Palmer
"a noble victim." Sale
"a costly victim." Rodwell
The only problem here is that the Quran doesn’t identify what this mighty sacrifice was. Was it some kind of animal? Was it the ram mentioned in Genesis 22:13? The problem with appealing to the Bible is that the Genesis account is actually a foreshadowing of the death of Christ in place of sinners, being the very Lamb of God foreseen by Abraham (see this article).
Thus, if we turn to the Holy Bible for clarification, then we must conclude that the mighty sacrifice that the author of the Quran was referring to is the Lamb of God, the beloved Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Muslim would be quick to respond and say that the Quran could not be referring to Jesus as the substitute since human sacrifices are condemned. Our response would be, where exactly does the Quran condemn the possibility of a human being dying in the place of another person? Now, a Muslim may wish to point to passages stating that a person's works can only benefit himself/herself (cf. 6:164; 17:15; 35:18; 39:7).
The problem with appealing to this set of passages is that there are other passages that clearly contradict them, verses which say that a person can in fact bear someone else's burden (cf. 16:25; 29:12-13). For more on this issue please consult the article Who Suffers the Consequence of Sins according to the Qur'an?
Hence, if the Quran agrees that a person can bear the sins of others, then a Muslim has no valid objection against the death of Christ on behalf of sinners.
Furthermore, the ahadith state that Muhammad's intercession will merit salvation for Muslims in hell, despite all the evil they have committ
Narrated Ma'bad bin Hilal Al'Anzi:
We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.'
They would come to me and I would say, 'I am for that.' Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' It will be said, 'Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, 'O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers!' Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."
When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, "Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it.
Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he [sic] 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601)
If Islamic tradition allows for the ransoming of Muslims on the basis of the merits of Muhammad, then Muslims have absolutely no grounds to reject the Christian position that Christ merited salvation for sinners.
We even find Islamic tradition teaching that humans, specifically Jews and Christians, will be thrown in hell in place of Muslims:
Chapter 8: THROWING OF NON-BELIEVERS IN HELL-FIRE FOR BELIEVERS AS DIVINE GRACE AND MERCY
Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with AS HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTAIN, and Allah would FORGIVE THEM and He would PLACE IN THEIR STEAD the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668)
Please note that these traditions clearly say that Allah will forgive the sins of Muslims and spare them from hell by punishing Jews and Christians in their place!
This is a form of substitutionary atonement and vicarious atonement, with the difference being that instead of punishing one person Allah punishes countless numbers of Jews and Christians in the place of Muslims!!!
So, we are forced to return the favor back to Muslims, specifically Badawi, and ask:
Is it just that Jews and Christians carry the stigma of sin because of the mistakes of Muslims? Is it just to condemn a Jew and Christian in advance? Muslims were created weak and imperfect and God knew this. If he sees a repentant human, is it just for God to say no, I must punish Jews and Christians in your place for you to enter paradise? Is it just that the innocent be killed and tortured to release the guilty? To say that Jews and Christians will be condemned to hell to save guilty Muslims just does not make sense ...
Is it merciful for Allah, knowing the Muslims’ weakness, to ignore repentance and require the eternal condemnation of Jews and Christians? Is it merciful for God to send the People of the Book to hell? Is it not more merciful that God simply forgives sin without this brutality and discrimination against people of different faiths? It appears that Muhammad's theory flies in the face of God's qualities of justice and mercy, since the damnation of Jews and Christians in the place of Muslims is neither just nor is it merciful.
Furthermore, seeing that Allah accepts the death of Jews and Christians, individuals who are far from being sinless, as a ransom for Muslims, then what possible objection could there be against the sinless and holy Son of God willfully dying on behalf of sinners in order to satisfy the justice of God?
For articles which deal with the issue of whether Islam teaches that persons ‘inherit’ sins from others and suffer judgment as a result of it, we recommend the following:
The Fall of the Human Race
Who Suffers the Consequence of Sins according to the Qur'an?
Moreover: How much sense does it make that Allah would not accept a voluntary substitutionary death (of Jesus) but force a substitutionary death on someone else?
See the various Muslim theories regarding the crucifixion of Jesus discussed in the section "The Cross of Christ".
Beginning to see how Islam appeals to you. @Pancho Frijoles
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Your assertion that forward-looking prophecy cannot extend beyond a limited timeframe, such as "six hours, six days, six weeks, perhaps six months, but not six centuries," is a restrictive interpretation that does not align with the biblical record.
Prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures often span long time horizons, some even reaching centuries into the future. The example of David's prayer in Psalm 51, though emphasizing God's immediate forgiveness and transformative grace, does not negate the possibility of long-term prophetic promises in other parts of Scripture.
1. Biblical Precedents for Long-Term Prophecies:
The Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 12:1-3): The promise to Abraham includes blessings for "all nations" through his offspring, fulfilled centuries later in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16) according to Christian interpretation.
The Messianic Prophecies of Isaiah: Isaiah 7:14 predicts the birth of Immanuel, fulfilled in Jesus centuries later (Matthew 1:22-23). Similarly, Isaiah 53 foresees the suffering servant, widely regarded in Christian theology as a prophecy of Jesus.
The Exile and Return: Jeremiah 29:10 predicts a seventy-year exile, while Daniel 9:24-27 outlines a timeline extending beyond centuries, culminating in messianic fulfillment.
These examples demonstrate that biblical prophecy often transcends immediate or near-term fulfillment.
2. God’s Forgiveness and Transformative Grace:
The claim that "God's forgiveness is inherently regenerative" is true in principle, as seen in Psalm 51:10-12, where David prays for a clean heart and a steadfast spirit. However, this regenerative work can unfold both immediately and progressively.
Prophets like Ezekiel (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:31-34) emphasize that God's transformative grace is part of a larger redemptive plan, culminating in the new covenant, a process spanning generations.
3. The Unity of Divine Forgiveness and Regeneration:
While Psalm 51 emphasizes the indivisibility of forgiveness and regeneration in David's personal plea, this does not preclude God’s ability to address broader, long-term restoration for His people.
Ezekiel 18:31 and similar passages do not "split" forgiveness and transformation but present a dual call: an immediate response to God’s command and an eschatological promise of full renewal. These layers coexist in prophetic literature without contradiction.
4. Temporal Limitations in Prophetic Interpretation:
Restricting prophetic timelines to immediate or near-term events imposes a human perspective on divine action.
God’s perspective on time is fundamentally different from ours: "With the Lord, one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).
By limiting prophecy to short timeframes, the argument risks ignoring the broader arc of salvation history, where God operates on both immediate and long-term horizons.
Response Summary:
Forward-looking prophecy in Scripture is not confined to short-term horizons, as evidenced by numerous long-term fulfillments spanning centuries. God's forgiveness and transformative grace, while immediate in individual cases like David’s, also unfold progressively within the broader context of His redemptive plan. Far from splitting forgiveness and regeneration, the prophets integrate both into their messages, addressing the immediate and the eschatological simultaneously.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Bahai theology also allows for a nuanced interpretation of Scripture based on the difference between eternal principles and temporary laws, covenants, rituals or symbols.
I am not a Muslim. I uphold the Quran, not all Muslim theology around the Quran, in the same way that you uphold the Bible, but not all Christian theology around the Bible.
Having said that, it is good for you to know that Muslim scholars reject literal interpretation and application of quranic verses without an appropriate understanding of the context… just as Christian scholars do with the Bible
Since I am not dealing in how Muslim regard Scriptures, but how I regard them, your counterargument may not be applicable… in case you are intending to present it as a contraargument,
I suggest to remember that not all Christians and not all Muslims interpret the Scriptures the same way. Bear that in mind when you say (or the AI program you use say) “Christians” or “Muslims”
It is getting boring and unpleasant to read your posts if they look like being 90% written by AI programs. I would like to feel I am interacting with a human being. I don’t know what @civic, @synergy, @Studyman and other friends think.
My humble suggestion for the @Administrator is to consider some rules about the use of AI in writing or replying to posts.
At least, the rules could mandate the Forum member to disclose when a paragraph has been copy-pasted from an AI program… and if appropriate, the rules would limit the number of posts mainly written by AI that are permitted.
As I have said, we will soon be unable to detect if we are debating with a robot or a human being.
Johann
Well-known member
Your reasoning aligns closely with that of Muslim scholars and their interpretations, as well as your re-interpretation of our Scriptures. Considering that you don’t even identify as a Christian, it begs the question-what exactly are you?
As for your appeal to @civic and @Administrator, accusing me of relying on ChatGPT is laughable, especially since ChatGPT can easily refute and debunk your philosophical claims about our Scriptures.
It’s no surprise that you want to ignore me, as I continue to expose your hidden tactics and your attempts to reinterpret MY Bible.
MY words @Pancho Frijoles and the best is yet to come!
J.
I came to a similar conclusion about a decade ago. Allah is an impotent, impersonal, myth-promoting, cut-throat, Jew-hating, death-promoting, Cross-denying demon that possessed Muhammad and produced the blasphemous quran.
Johann
Well-known member
Whenever a Muslim's interpretation of the Bible is proven false, he will always say that the Bible is either 1) corrupted, 2) a myth, or 3) a metaphor that neutralizes the verse. @Pancho Frijoles consistently resorts to options 2 and 3. Once he starts appealing to option 1 then at that point we can truly say that he is a fully converted Muslim. Mind you, options 1 and 2 are very similar so @Pancho Frijoles is not that far away from Islam right now.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Well, this does bring up a point I have never mentioned and that is our translations were mostly done by Catholics who were bias. I have even seen Bibles that say in John 1:1 in the beginning was Jesus. So yeah there's a lot of corruption and myth and I would add edited concerning the subject of the trinity.
Even if that were true, the overwhelming majority of NT Bibles mention the Word in John 1:1. So your "the sky is falling" mania is just another one of your Chicken Little scare tactics.
I take exception to your attacks on the Apostles.
The proof of Jesus' Deity (and proof of the Trinity) has always been under everyone's nose. The name Lord comes directly from κυριος as written in the Greek OT (Septuagint), and that in turn comes directly from YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai as written in the Hebrew text.
The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.
For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve the title of κυριος (Lord) in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.
As if that wasn't enough, Jesus explicitly declared himself "I Am" (John 8:58), the very name of the OT God (Ex 3:14). Also, John declared the Word (the Preincarnate Jesus) in John 1:1 as being God, translated from θεὸς in Greek and from Elohim in Hebrew.
Sadly, In this modern religious world there is very little actual discussion or debate concerning Scriptures and what they actually teach as a matter of lifestyle, or as Jesus taught, "Words to Live By". There are simply scores of different religious businesses competing against each other for contributing members to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. Each one creating their own doctrines and their own philosophies and judgments using only the parts of the Holy Scriptures they can twist to justify their specific religious lifestyle. I think this might be the same with the Quran and the "many" different religious sects who use it as their justification, but this is my speculation as I have not spent enough time in research to know if this is the case or not.
To "many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, the Bible is a book filled with slogans and bumper stickers they can pick through, to promote their specific religion, and to use to demean and diminish their perceived competitors. This can really be seen on this forum, especially with preachers on a mission against Calvinists. It's OK for them to look closely at the Calvinist religion, as they should in my view, but they don't want you looking closely at their religion. Like the insurance salesman who bad mouths the competitors, while steering you away from the fine print of their own policy. If you want to fluster a used car salesman, just start looking closely at the car he's trying to sell. This is why Synergy and Johann and Civic are so adversarial towards you. It's not because of Islam, as they say, it's because you are challenging their adopted religious philosophy by pointing out what their own Scriptures actually say. They treat anyone/everyone who challenges their specific religious sect in the same exact way.
AI is just another marketing tool that modern religious salesmen, like Civic and Johann, can utilize to promote, defend and justify their specific religious business. And also use to demean and diminish their perceived competitors. And like any good salesman, their mission is to sell the product, not necessarily promote the truth about the product.
"Got Questions" and "The Berian Bible Society", is where these men, who have transformed themselves into Apostles of Christ, are trained. And these men are trained to use and adopt the philosophies these websites promote, as if it were their own. Much in the way JW's can be trained to promote the specific religious business of the JW's. The Pharisees used the same marketing strategy long before the internet, through their religious schools where they were taught to promote, by theologians like Gamaliel, their religious traditions and doctrines of men. ALL of this world's competing religious sects, use this same marketing strategy to grow their religious business. And AI is just another Tool for them to utilize in their mission, and sadly, it is here to stay in my view.
I am hoping, my brother, that you might also come to see this, and come to understand that it is a tradition of men to choose between this world's smorgasbord of religious sects and businesses and then promote their religious philosophies to help them grow their religion, in order to be accepted by God. Much in the same way your perspective has edified me and broadened my scope of understanding through relevant questions and examination of my Scriptures.
Although I am a nobody in the eyes of "mainstream Christianity", and do not partake of their religious traditions, judgments or images of God, I am always glad to debate, discuss and examine the Bible in an honest and genuine way based on my understanding of scriptures apart, as much as possible, from the influence of the "other voice in the garden" that God placed me in.
You will always be speaking to a flawed human, and not a robot or website in our discourse.
I hope you have a great Sabbath today.
1 Cor. 5: 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is "called a brother" be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; "with such an one no not to eat". 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them "that are without" God judgeth. Therefore put away from "among yourselves" that wicked person.
I don't know much about the Quran, and honestly don't care. My God says a man is judged by his works. I'll let God judge those who are without by their works. And concentrate on the fruits of those who are claim to be from within.
I have seen self-proclaimed ministers of Righteousness, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, fleece and shame my own poor mother out of her limited income, because they showed her a picture of some poor child from Haiti. And mainstream "Christianity", that is, men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have been scamming money from widows and poor people since the early 1800's when the first Baptist religion staked their claim there. Since then, literally billions and billions and untold Billions of dollars have been raised by pretty much all of the religious franchises of the world, and even today, they are still soliciting money for the poor people in Haiti. I have done some research, and in 1995 there were only 7.5 million people even living in Haiti. According to what data I can find, and you too if you are interested, from different 501 c3's, if only 1/2 of the money collected since the turn of the century by religions, was actually given to the people of Haiti, they would all own about 1,000 Bibles. They would all have new homes, and they would all be millionaires. Poverty would be completely abolished. Water and food plentiful.
But none of these things have happened. And if you listen to these scammers, the people of Haiti are still as poor as they were in 1995, even after hundreds of Billions of Dollars were collected for them.
And these same religious businesses are still appealing to the conscience of caring folks, like my mother, to help all these poor people. Where did all the money go and still going? Just look at the homes of the organizers and promoters, and you will see. Everyone on this forum knows these things but is silent. Instead Synergy, you spend your time hiding the atrocities of your own religion, by deflecting from them, and pointing fingers and judging a man who Paul tells you not to judge. And this is only one country, I haven't even mentioned Ethiopia, Ecuador and the rest. Religion is HUGE money for the promoters and managers. This is nothing but undeniable truths, yet you hide yourself from it, and judge non-Christians as if your adopted religion is better.
I could point out the history and atrocities of the Crusades. But you are silent about them as well, justifying their " impersonal, myth-promoting, cut-throat, Jew-hating, death-promoting" philosophies that are still promoted even to this day. And even today, if I was one of the millions of children molested by a preacher or religious leader of a mainstream Christian sect, when I was a child, maybe in Bible camp, or a religious school, I can join in a civil lawsuit and perhaps collect damages. How many children have suffered lifelong damages because their parents trusted a religious leader because He called Jesus Lord, Lord? How many suicides have these many, "Who come in Christ's Name" caused by their "Love" for little boys and girls? It is a known fact that pedophiles are attracted this world's religious settings, especially those religions who come in Christ's Name. And this because they don't take Jesus seriously when HE said to take heed, not of Islam, Atheists or Buddhist, but to take heed specifically of men "who come in HIS NAME".
Hear what the Spirit of Christ says about the religious businesses of this world you have adopted and are defending.
Rev. 18: 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For "all nations" have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the "merchants of the earth" are waxed rich through the abundance of "her delicacies". (high days, judgments and traditions)
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye "be not partakers of her sins", and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 "How much she hath glorified herself", and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow", and shall see no sorrow.
No Synergy, I will not join you in your promotion of this world's religious businesses "who come in Christ's Name", nor will I join you in your condemnation of this world's religions who don't.
Is your name Luigi? You sound like him. I hope you don't go down his road.
Actually, I was demoting allah, not promoting anything. If you wish to stand with a Jew-hating cut-throat demon then I would strongly suggest that you don't.
I don't know of this Luigi of whom you speak. But it doesn't surprise me that others have studied into why Jesus would specifically warn about this worlds "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord, who "Come in His Name", who transform themselves into apostles of Christ. I know many men who have.
Allah is simply the Arabic Word for "GOD". All Arabic Christians call the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, "Allah" who you promote as "a Jew-hating cut-throat demon", who placed Laws on the necks of Jews who trusted Him that are impossible to obey, then this same God lied to the Jews by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't. You guys are clear regarding your hatred for this "Allah", just as the Bible teaches you would.
Chinese Christians call the same God Tiānzhǔ (天主 in their language. Will you call Him "a Jew-hating cut-throat demon" too?
Johann
Well-known member
You might want to try again-
The word "Allah" is not directly mentioned in the Greek New Testament or the Hebrew Bible. However, understanding this question requires examining both linguistic and theological contexts.
1. The Name "Allah"
"Allah" is the Arabic word for God and is used by Arabic-speaking Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike.
It is linguistically derived from al-ilah (Arabic: الإله), meaning "the God," and closely parallels the Hebrew Eloah (אֱלוֹהַּ) or Elohim (אֱלֹהִים), and the Aramaic Alaha (ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ).
2. Hebrew Bible (Old Testament)
In the Hebrew Bible, God's names and titles include:
Elohim (אֱלֹהִים): A plural form often used for God, indicating majesty or plurality of intensity.
El (אֵל): A singular form meaning "God" or "Mighty One."
Eloah (אֱלוֹהַּ): A less common singular form of Elohim.
Connection to "Allah":
The Hebrew word Eloah (אֱלוֹהַּ) is phonetically similar to "Allah" and has the same Semitic root.
The Aramaic term for God, Alaha (used in the Peshitta, the Syriac Bible), is even closer to "Allah."
However, these names occur in the Hebrew context and refer to the God of Israel, not the theological concept of Allah in Islam.
3. Greek New Testament
In the Greek New Testament, the primary word used for God is Theos (Θεός).
This term has no direct linguistic connection to the Arabic "Allah," though both refer to the concept of God.
Arabic translations of the New Testament do use "Allah" for God because "Allah" is the standard Arabic term for God.
--since you believe @Pancho Frijoles is correct and all us folk promoters of a "different gospel"
J.
If you don't see any difference between allah of the quran and God of the Bible then you are more far gone than I had previously thought. May you be blessed by your prophet Muhammad.
You keep talking like Luigi Mangione. I hope you don't go down the same road he went down.
Nice copy and Paste AI response.
But I'm simply pointing out that God/Allah/Tiānzhǔ (天主) is a not a "a Jew-hating cut-throat demon". You are free to promote the philosophies of whatever religious business you want.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Jesus was divine even before he was resurrected. He was the son of God. How you twist that into being God when there's no teaching on it anywhere in the Bible is a great mystery to me. People on Facebook call the trinity a satanic concept.
Again, you attack the Apostles. The Apostles did not "twist" anything.
The Apostles followed the Septuagint and called Jesus κυριος (Lord) which is the Greek name for YHWH and Adonai. They did not use the name "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" (κυριος) to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.
For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord"(κυριος) is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve the title of κυριος (Lord) in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way as they did for Jesus and the Father.
As if that wasn't enough, Jesus explicitly declared himself "I Am" (John 8:58), the very name of the OT God (Ex 3:14). Also, John declared the Word (the Preincarnate Jesus) in John 1:1 as being God, translated from θεὸς in Greek and from Elohim in Hebrew.
