God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Johann]

I provided the actual Greek word Jesus used rebuking with the lexical definition.

The Hebrew equivalent often associated with the concept of reproach is חֶרְפָּה (cherpah), Strong's Hebrew 2781, which also denotes disgrace or scorn.

Usage: The verb "oneidizó" is used in the New Testament to describe the act of reproaching or insulting someone. It often carries the connotation of casting blame or shame upon another, typically in a public or humiliating manner. This term is used to depict both verbal attacks and the broader sense of scorn or contempt directed at an individual.

Show me where-which verse please. The gospel accounts.

J.

 

[civic]

Show me where-which verse please. The gospel accounts.

J.

plenty of them and I'm no dummy as I have been studying Greek since the 80's.

Englishman's Concordance
Matthew 5:11 V-ASA-3P
GRK: ἐστε ὅταν ὀνειδίσωσιν ὑμᾶς καὶ
NAS: are you when [people] insult you and persecute
KJV: when [men] shall revile you,
INT: are you when they shall insult you and
Matthew 11:20 V-PNA
GRK: Τότε ἤρξατο ὀνειδίζειν τὰς πόλεις
NAS: He began to denounce the cities
KJV: began he to upbraid the cities
INT: Then he began to insult the cities

Matthew 27:44 V-IIA-3P
GRK: σὺν αὐτῷ ὠνείδιζον αὐτόν
NAS: with Him were also insulting Him with the same
KJV: the same in his teeth.
INT: with him insulted him

Mark 15:32 V-IIA-3P
GRK: σὺν αὐτῷ ὠνείδιζον αὐτόν
NAS: with Him were also insulting Him.
KJV: with him reviled him.
INT: with him insulted him

Mark 16:14 V-AIA-3S
GRK: ἐφανερώθη καὶ ὠνείδισεν τὴν ἀπιστίαν
NAS: as they were reclining [at the table]; and He reproached them for their unbelief
KJV: and upbraided them with their
INT: he appeared and rebuked the unbelief

Luke 6:22 V-ASA-3P
GRK: ὑμᾶς καὶ ὀνειδίσωσιν καὶ ἐκβάλωσιν
NAS: you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn
KJV: [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and
INT: you and shall insult [you] and cast out

Romans 15:3 V-PPA-GMP
GRK: ὀνειδισμοὶ τῶν ὀνειδιζόντων σὲ ἐπέπεσαν
NAS: OF THOSE WHO REPROACHED YOU FELL
KJV: The reproaches of them that reproached thee
INT: reproaches of those reproaching you fell

James 1:5 V-PPA-GMS
GRK: καὶ μὴ ὀνειδίζοντος καὶ δοθήσεται
NAS: and without reproach, and it will be given
KJV: and upbraideth not;
INT: and without reproaches and it will be given

1 Peter 4:14 V-PIM/P-2P
GRK: εἰ ὀνειδίζεσθε ἐν ὀνόματι
NAS: If you are reviled for the name
KJV: If ye be reproached for the name
INT: If you are insulted in [the] name

If you are insulted
The Greek word for "insulted" is "ὀνειδίζω" (oneidizō), which means to reproach, revile, or heap insults upon. In the early Christian context, believers often faced verbal abuse and mockery for their faith. This phrase reminds us that enduring such insults is not a sign of shame but a badge of honor. Historically, Christians have been marginalized and persecuted, yet this verse encourages believers to see these experiences as a participation in Christ's own sufferings.

Strong's Greek 3679
9 Occurrences

ὠνείδισεν — 1 Occ.
ὠνείδιζον — 2 Occ.
ὀνειδίσωσιν — 2 Occ.
ὀνειδίζειν — 1 Occ.
ὀνειδίζεσθε — 1 Occ.
ὀνειδιζόντων — 1 Occ.
ὀνειδίζοντος — 1 Occ.

 

[Johann]

plenty of them and I'm no dummy as I have been studying Greek since the 80's.

Incorrect-

Total Occurrences: 10
ὀνειδίζειν oneidízein (1) V-PAN
he to upbraid Mat_11:20
ὀνειδίζεσθε oneidízesthe (1) V-PPI-2P
ye be reproached 1Pe_4:14
ὀνειδιζόμεθα oneidizómetha (1) V-PPI-1P
suffer reproach 1Ti_4:10
ὀνειδίζοντος oneidízontos (1) V-PAP-GSM
upbraideth Jam_1:5
ὀνειδιζόντων oneidizóntôn (1) V-PAP-GPM
of them that reproached Rom_15:3
ὀνειδίσωσιν oneidísôsin (2) V-AAS-3P
men shall revile Mat_5:11
shall reproach Luk_6:22
ὠνείδιζον ôneídizon (2) V-IAI-3P
cast the same in his teeth Mat_27:44
reviled Mar_15:32
ὠνείδισεν ôneídisen (1) V-AAI-3S
upbraided Mar_16:14
English to Strong’s
cast the same in his teeth G3679+G846
reproach G819, G3679, G3680, G3681
reproached G3679
revile G3679
reviled G486, G987, G3058, G3679
upbraid G3679
upbraided G3679
upbraideth G3679


Your claim that Jesus attacked or insulted people can be rebutted by examining the Greek words used in the relevant contexts. The terms often translated as "insult," "reproach," or "revile"-particularly ὀνειδίζω (oneidizó, Strong's G3679)-have specific nuances that depend on their usage in each passage. Below is a detailed breakdown of the Greek texts you referenced:

1. Matthew 5:11 (ὀνειδίσωσιν)
Blessed are you when they insult (ὀνειδίσωσιν) you and persecute you...

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: In this context, the term describes others casting verbal insults or reproach at Jesus' followers. This word carries the sense of unfair or malicious verbal attacks.

Jesus' Role: Here, Jesus is not the one insulting but acknowledging the unjust treatment His followers would face from others for their faith.

2. Matthew 11:20 (ὀνειδίζειν)
Then He began to denounce (ὀνειδίζειν) the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: The term in this context means "to reproach" or "rebuke" in a corrective manner.

Jesus is holding the cities accountable for their unrepentance despite witnessing His works. This is not an "attack" but a righteous judgment consistent with His role as a prophet calling for repentance.

Motive: Jesus' words aim to convict and call people to repentance, not to insult maliciously.

3. Matthew 27:44 (ὠνείδιζον) and Mark 15:32 (ὠνείδιζον)
The robbers who were crucified with Him also insulted (ὠνείδιζον) Him in the same way.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: In these instances, the word refers to malicious mockery directed at Jesus by others.

Jesus' Role: These verses show Jesus as the recipient of insults, not the instigator. He endures the reproach silently, fulfilling prophecies like Isaiah 53:7.

4. Mark 16:14 (ὠνείδισεν)
He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached (ὠνείδισεν) them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: Here, the term conveys a corrective reprimand. Jesus addresses His disciples’ failure to believe the reports of His resurrection.

Motive: The reproach is not an attack but a rebuke aimed at fostering faith and obedience.

5. Luke 6:22 (ὀνειδίσωσιν)
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and revile (ὀνειδίσωσιν) you.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: This describes the reproach believers will endure from others. Again, Jesus is not the source of the reproach but the one who prepares His followers to endure such treatment.

6. Romans 15:3 (ὀνειδισμοί)
The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me.

Meaning of ὀνειδισμός: Paul quotes Psalm 69:9, which describes how Christ bore the insults directed at God. Jesus willingly took on the scorn of others as part of His redemptive work.

Jesus' Role: He is portrayed as bearing reproach, not as reproaching others.

7. James 1:5 (ὀνειδίζοντος)
He gives to all generously and without reproach (ὀνειδίζοντος).

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: Here, it highlights God's generosity and the absence of reproach when He gives wisdom. This underscores God’s grace and contrasts with human tendencies to criticize.

8. 1 Peter 4:14 (ὀνειδίζεσθε)
If you are reviled (ὀνειδίζεσθε) for the name of Christ, you are blessed.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: The term refers to external insults directed at believers because of their association with Christ.

Summary of Greek Usage
ὀνειδίζω often describes malicious verbal reproach or insult, but in the context of Jesus, His actions are corrective and prophetic rather than insulting or attacking.

Jesus rebukes sin and unbelief (e.g., Matthew 11:20, Mark 16:14) out of righteousness and love for truth, not out of malice.

The majority of these references portray Jesus as the one bearing reproach or preparing His followers to endure it, not as one who instigates it maliciously.

Your accusation that Jesus insulted or attacked people is inconsistent with the semantic range of ὀνειδίζω in the Gospels and contradicts His character as revealed in Scripture.

His words were always purposeful, aiming to correct, instruct, or fulfill His redemptive mission.

Note, this was God in the flesh-His mission. If you don't mind, I’d prefer not to spend the entire day here correcting your mistakes, especially since understanding context doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

J.

 

[civic]

Matthew 5:11- “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Incorrect-

Total Occurrences: 10
ὀνειδίζειν oneidízein (1) V-PAN
he to upbraid Mat_11:20
ὀνειδίζεσθε oneidízesthe (1) V-PPI-2P
ye be reproached 1Pe_4:14
ὀνειδιζόμεθα oneidizómetha (1) V-PPI-1P
suffer reproach 1Ti_4:10
ὀνειδίζοντος oneidízontos (1) V-PAP-GSM
upbraideth Jam_1:5
ὀνειδιζόντων oneidizóntôn (1) V-PAP-GPM
of them that reproached Rom_15:3
ὀνειδίσωσιν oneidísôsin (2) V-AAS-3P
men shall revile Mat_5:11
shall reproach Luk_6:22
ὠνείδιζον ôneídizon (2) V-IAI-3P
cast the same in his teeth Mat_27:44
reviled Mar_15:32
ὠνείδισεν ôneídisen (1) V-AAI-3S
upbraided Mar_16:14
English to Strong’s
cast the same in his teeth G3679+G846
reproach G819, G3679, G3680, G3681
reproached G3679
revile G3679
reviled G486, G987, G3058, G3679
upbraid G3679
upbraided G3679
upbraideth G3679


Your claim that Jesus attacked or insulted people can be rebutted by examining the Greek words used in the relevant contexts. The terms often translated as "insult," "reproach," or "revile"-particularly ὀνειδίζω (oneidizó, Strong's G3679)-have specific nuances that depend on their usage in each passage. Below is a detailed breakdown of the Greek texts you referenced:

1. Matthew 5:11 (ὀνειδίσωσιν)
Blessed are you when they insult (ὀνειδίσωσιν) you and persecute you...

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: In this context, the term describes others casting verbal insults or reproach at Jesus' followers. This word carries the sense of unfair or malicious verbal attacks.

Jesus' Role: Here, Jesus is not the one insulting but acknowledging the unjust treatment His followers would face from others for their faith.

2. Matthew 11:20 (ὀνειδίζειν)
Then He began to denounce (ὀνειδίζειν) the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: The term in this context means "to reproach" or "rebuke" in a corrective manner.

Jesus is holding the cities accountable for their unrepentance despite witnessing His works. This is not an "attack" but a righteous judgment consistent with His role as a prophet calling for repentance.

Motive: Jesus' words aim to convict and call people to repentance, not to insult maliciously.

3. Matthew 27:44 (ὠνείδιζον) and Mark 15:32 (ὠνείδιζον)
The robbers who were crucified with Him also insulted (ὠνείδιζον) Him in the same way.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: In these instances, the word refers to malicious mockery directed at Jesus by others.

Jesus' Role: These verses show Jesus as the recipient of insults, not the instigator. He endures the reproach silently, fulfilling prophecies like Isaiah 53:7.

4. Mark 16:14 (ὠνείδισεν)
He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached (ὠνείδισεν) them for their unbelief and hardness of heart.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: Here, the term conveys a corrective reprimand. Jesus addresses His disciples’ failure to believe the reports of His resurrection.

Motive: The reproach is not an attack but a rebuke aimed at fostering faith and obedience.

5. Luke 6:22 (ὀνειδίσωσιν)
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and revile (ὀνειδίσωσιν) you.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: This describes the reproach believers will endure from others. Again, Jesus is not the source of the reproach but the one who prepares His followers to endure such treatment.

6. Romans 15:3 (ὀνειδισμοί)
The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me.

Meaning of ὀνειδισμός: Paul quotes Psalm 69:9, which describes how Christ bore the insults directed at God. Jesus willingly took on the scorn of others as part of His redemptive work.

Jesus' Role: He is portrayed as bearing reproach, not as reproaching others.

7. James 1:5 (ὀνειδίζοντος)
He gives to all generously and without reproach (ὀνειδίζοντος).

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: Here, it highlights God's generosity and the absence of reproach when He gives wisdom. This underscores God’s grace and contrasts with human tendencies to criticize.

8. 1 Peter 4:14 (ὀνειδίζεσθε)
If you are reviled (ὀνειδίζεσθε) for the name of Christ, you are blessed.

Meaning of ὀνειδίζω: The term refers to external insults directed at believers because of their association with Christ.

Summary of Greek Usage
ὀνειδίζω often describes malicious verbal reproach or insult, but in the context of Jesus, His actions are corrective and prophetic rather than insulting or attacking.

Jesus rebukes sin and unbelief (e.g., Matthew 11:20, Mark 16:14) out of righteousness and love for truth, not out of malice.

The majority of these references portray Jesus as the one bearing reproach or preparing His followers to endure it, not as one who instigates it maliciously.

Your accusation that Jesus insulted or attacked people is inconsistent with the semantic range of ὀνειδίζω in the Gospels and contradicts His character as revealed in Scripture.

His words were always purposeful, aiming to correct, instruct, or fulfill His redemptive mission.

Note, this was God in the flesh-His mission. If you don't mind, I’d prefer not to spend the entire day here correcting your mistakes, especially since understanding context doesn't seem to be your strong suit.

J.

The fact is Jesus did insult people many times as I quoted the scriptures where He did just that and attacked people verbally insulting them like John 8 and Matthew 23 with the pharisees. You can believe whatever you want thats on you, not me. I've given plenty of evidence to support it and you are denying the evidence and the Greek definition of the word ὀνειδίσωσιν.

Part of understanding the bible is understanding the context and how words are used. Its called exegesis. You are practicing eisegesis and favoring your personal "opinion" over scripture and the Greek meaning of the word.

BDAG- The Authority on Greek words and their meaning.

ὀνειδίζω impf. ὠνείδιζον; fut. 3 sg. ὀνειδιεῖ Sir 18:8; Ps 73, 10 and ὀνειδίσει Sir 20:15; 1 aor. ὠνείδισα. Pass: fut. 3 pl. ὀνειδισθήσονται Sir 41:7; 1 aor. ὠνειδίσθην LXX (ὄνειδο; Hom.; Pla. [on contrast w. λοιδορεῖν s. Pla., Ap. 38c] +; BGU 1024 VII, 21; PGiss 40 II, 5; LXX; PsSol 2:19; Test12Patr; GrBar 1:2; Philo, Joseph., Just.).


① to find fault in a way that demeans the other, reproach, revile, mock, heap insults upon as a way of shaming; w. acc. of the pers. affected (Trag.; Pla., Apol. 30e; Lucian, Tox. 61; Ps 41:11; 54:13 al. LXX; Jos., Ant. 14, 430; 18, 360) of the reviling/mocking of Jesus Mk 15:32; cp. Ro 15:3 (Ps 68:10) and of Jesus’ disciples Mt 5:11; Lk 6:22. W. double acc. (Soph., Oed. Col. 1002 ὀν. τινὰ τοιαῦτα; Ael. Aristid. 28, 155 K.=49 p. 542 D.; Heliod. 7, 27, 5) τὸ αὐτὸ καὶ οἱ λῃσταὶ ὠνείδιζον αὐτόν the robbers also reviled/mocked him in the same way Mt 27:44.—Pass. εἰ ὀνειδίζεσθε ἐν ὀνόματι Χριστοῦ if you are (being) reviled for the name of Christ 1 Pt 4:14.—Only as v.l. in the two foll. pass.: εἰς τοῦτο κοπιῶμεν καὶ ὀνειδιζόμεθα it is for this (i.e., what precedes) that we toil and suffer reproach 1 Ti 4:10 v.l. (for ἀγωνιζόμεθα). εἰς τί ὠνείδισάς με; why have you reproached me? or what have you reproached me for? (ὀν. τινὰ εἴς τι as Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 104 §430 ὠνείδισεν ἐς δειλίαν=he reproached him for cowardice; 5, 54 §224; 5, 96 §400; Jos., Bell. 1, 237) Mk 15:34 D and Macarius Magnes 1, 12 (the text has ἐγκατέλιπες. S. Harnack, SBBerlAk 1901, 262ff=Studien I ’31, 98ff; JSundwall, D. Zusammensetzung des Mk ’34, 83).—A special kind of reproach is the suggestion of reluctance that too often accompanies the giving of a gift (Sextus 339 ὁ διδοὺς μετʼ ὀνείδους ὑβρίζει; difft. Plut., Mor. 64a; s. also Sir 20:15; 41:25.—ὀν. can also mean charge or reproach someone with someth., a kind of verbal extortion, with the purpose of obtaining someth. from a pers., e.g., Maximus Tyr. 5, 7h τῷ θεῷ the building of a temple); God does not do this Js 1:5.


② to find justifiable fault with someone, reproach, reprimand, w. acc. of pers. (Pr 25:8; Philo, Fuga 30; Jos., Ant. 4, 189; Just., D. 37, 2 ὀνειδίζει ὑμᾶς τὸ πνεῦμα ἅγιον al.) and ὅτι foll. to give the reason for the reproach Mt 11:20. W. acc. of pers. and λέγων foll. w. dir. discourse (cp. BGU 1141, 23 [14 b.c.] ὀνειδίζει με λέγων) GPt 4:13. W. acc. of the thing censured (Isocr., Or. 15, 318, 345a; Herodian 3, 8, 6; Wsd 2:12; Jos., Ant. 10, 139) τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν καὶ σκληροκαρδίαν Mk 16:14.—Schmidt, Syn. I 136–49. DELG s.v. ὄνειδο. M-M. TW. Spicq.


ὀνειδισμός, οῦ, ὁ (s. prec. entry; Dionys. Hal.; Plut., Artax. 22, 12; Vett. Val. 65, 7; 73, 10; LXX; En 103:4; TestSol 26:8 H; Test12Patr; Jos., Ant. 19, 319. Late word: Lob., Phryn. p. 511f) act of disparagement that results in disgrace, reproach, reviling, disgrace, insult εἰς ὀν. ἐμπίπτειν fall into disgrace 1 Ti 3:7. ἀφεῖλεν ἀπʼ ἐμοῦ ὀνειδισμὸν τῶν ἐχθρῶν μου (God) took away from me the reproach of my enemies GJs 6:3.—Hb speaks of the ὀν. τοῦ Χριστοῦ and holds that even Moses took upon himself the reproach of Christ 11:26, and he calls upon believers: ἐξερχώμεθα πρὸς αὐτὸν … τὸν ὀν. αὐτοῦ φέροντες 13:13 (ὀν. φέρειν as Ezk 34:29; TestReub 4:7 v.l.).—Pl. (TestReub. 4:2; TestJud 23:3) οἱ ὀν. reproaches, insults Ro 15:3 (Ps 68:10; s. ὀνειδίζω 1). W. θλίψεις: ὀνειδισμοῖς καὶ θλίψεσιν θεατριζόμενοι exposed as a public spectacle to insults and persecutions Hb 10:33.—DELG s.v. ὄνειδο. M-M. TW. Spicq


Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker, Walter Bauer, and F. Wilbur Gingrich. 2000. In A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed., 710. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Complete]

in Summary of the essential doctrine of the Resurrection - the gospel of our salvation​

​

We must remember Paul defines the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8 then spends the entire rest of the chapter focusing on the centerpiece of the gospel, the resurrection of Christ. Below are the reasons why in my humble estimation. It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil.​

​

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.​

​

The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.​

'For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that He was buried,
and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ( Psa,16:10. Isa.53:9 -11. Jon.1:17 )
And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;
.. of whom the greater part remain unto this present,
.... but some are fallen asleep.
After that, He was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.'
(1Cor. 15:3-8)

Hello @civic,
I come to this entry via another thread, in which you reference this as part of your response there. However, I now find myself wanting to respond to this. I agree the resurrection of Christ is the vital ingredient by which our souls are saved and the gift of life given as promised by God the Father. Resurrection being the evidence, like the fire that ignited the sacrificial offerings of the Old Testament, that the sacrifice had been received and the sins atoned for. Praise God!

Romans 4:24-25​

but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.​

​

Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.​

​

John 11:25-26​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”​

​

We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.​

​

Philippians 3:10 refers to the power displayed in the resurrection and the power that comes from it. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was a powerful demonstration of the power of God. Not only was Jesus raised up but we were raised up with Him (Ephesians 4:8; 2:6).​

​

There is life-giving power of His resurrection. The resurrection power of God is His dunamis or explosive power. Resurrection life brings the life of God at our conversion when we are born again. (John 11:25 – 26; 1 John 5:12). The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are born again. We are changed, born of the Spirit, and we have the same life in us as He has, the Zoe life of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3-8.)​

Praise God!

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Romans 8:10-11
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

conclusion: don't let anyone try and fool you about this ESSENTIAL/CORE/SALVIFIC DOCTRINE - the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus the foundation of the gospel message that was preached by the Apostles. No Resurrection, no salvation. Those who deny it have another gospel, another jesus as per Paul in Galatians 1 and 1 Cor 15.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Studyman]

Error-this is not my Lord Jesus Christ you are describing but that of a brute beast-acting like brute beast.

I know what you are doing Civic-


In none of these verses is it ever implied or suggested that the Messiah behaved aggressively or attacked sinners or religious leaders.

J.

It seems that you are refusing to accept, or perhaps you just don't know the importance and necessity of humiliation in the cleansing process of God, probably because you have never been exercised by it. I don't see this practice of God as an "attack" on a person, having been exercised by it myself many times, although many mainstream preachers I have met consider it as an attack, as Civic shows. In my understanding, it is actually part of God's Love towards man, or "Chastisement" as it is written, "IF A MAN ACCEPTS THE CORRECTION". If they don't accept God's Word as trustworthy for correction, it will be considered an attack. I doubt that you will ever consider the Scriptures I post, or my understanding of them because of your adopted religion and your stated position of being "superior in knowledge" to me and others.

Nevertheless, it seems prudent to point out what the Scriptures say and share my understanding for others who might be reading along. Please consider what Civic would call an attack by a Priest of God.

2 Sam. 12: 7 And "Nathan" said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast "despised me", and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. 11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

It's easy to understand why Civic and others, if this happened to them, could call this an "Attack" on them "by Nathan". And would exert whatever power through positions of self-importance they might employ, to defend themselves. They would be inclined to lash out, for example, "who are you to judge me"? "Don't you know I am a preacher of a religious business that has 20 million members?", "Don't you know I have a theology degree from the "Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary"? or "Don't you know I am the King of Israel"? But David didn't respond this way at all. Instead, he accepted his correction and humiliation in front of all Israel.

2 Sam. 12: 13 And "David said" unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, "The LORD also hath put away thy sin"; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion "to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme", the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. (And to this day, "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, use David's sin as justification for their willful rejection of God's judgments and Laws, "See, David didn't obey God") But I digress.

So, is Jesus not greater than Nathan?

Mark 11: 15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them "that sold doves"; (On the Sabbath Day)

16 And would not suffer "that any man should carry any vessel through the temple".

Clearly God's Feasts and Sabbath were not created as a marketing tool to make money by this world's religious businesses, nor is it Lawful to carry or sell your wares on God's Sabbaths. I believe this also includes the real Temple of God which is in our minds. This is why, in my understanding, God's People are too Fast, in both mind and body, from the rigors of this world, on the 7th Day.

17 And he taught, (From the Law and Prophets) saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he "drove them all out of the temple", and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

So what did these men do after they were shown their grievous sins which angered God to the point where Jesus was instructed by HIM to actually physically spank these children of disobedience in front of all those attending the First day of Unleavened Bread?

18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

So we have David, who accepted God's Chastisement and Correction, repented in true sorrow, and accepted his GREAT punishment and humiliation before the entire world, as even to this very day, his sin is used to justify the wickedness of men. But HE thanked God and was forever grateful for the humiliation and the forgiveness of His Father and that God Loved him enough to chastise him and glorify him with forgiveness.

And we have the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, who considered His Words and actions an attack on them and refused to be humbled and even consider the Words of God Jesus quoted in God's Chastisement of them, choosing instead to plot how they might silence Him and the Rebukes God wrought through Him for good.

This world's religious sects and businesses, that you guys have adopted and are now promoting, work to silence men like Nathan, and Moses and the Prophets, and even Jesus "in whom you trust". Like the Pharisees before them, they engage in commerce on the Days God esteemed above others. They reject God's Judgments and Statutes, "In Christ's Name". They promote images of God in the Likeness of some random, handsome long haired man. They choose ancient Pagan high days, over the Feasts of the Lord, and place Jesus Name on them in worship of the image of God they have created. All these "fruits" are a direct violation of God's "instruction in righteousness" and not followed by Jesus or those who placed their trust in Him as witnessed by the Testimony.

And when someone shows these grievous sins and exposes them through the Holy scriptures whose very purpose is to be trusted "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: "That the man of God may be perfect", throughly furnished unto all good works.

They call him names, and label him as a heretic. No different at all from the religious business of the Pharisees, accept these religious businesses of today, do all these things while calling Jesus Lord, Lord.

You don't have to partake with them Johann and choose between the many different religious sects of this world, adopt their philosophies, and promote them for the purpose of growing their specific religious business. If you were to "come out of her", as the Jesus of the Bible instructs, and "Be ye therefore not like unto them" as Jesus also instructs, you will suffer humiliation for a time, by those in your own family and life, and "many" will label you, and ridicule you for turning to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, as HE also instructs. And you will be ridiculed for not partaking in their manmade high days or refusing to partake of their precious image of God they created. But you will learn what the term "Sufferings of Christ" means, and you will partake of them for a blessing, and you will understand, at last, the necessity of correction and humiliation, especially for those like Paul, who were so zealous for the religious traditions of his fathers that he ridiculed and persecuted those who refuge was the Lord,, "Wherein in time past he walked according to the course (religions) of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

This is a Path less traveled for sure, and there is no doubt Jesus walked in it, along with His Disciples and apostles, and those who believed on the One True God and the Christ Jesus "of the bible". This is the Path Jesus instructed that we should strive to enter, according to what is written in Scriptures, if a man considers "ALL" that is written.

 

[Johann]

It seems that you are refusing to accept, or perhaps you just don't know the importance and necessity of humiliation in the cleansing process of God, probably because you have never been exercised by it. I don't see this practice of God as an "attack" on a person, having been exercised by it myself many times, although many mainstream preachers I have met consider it as an attack, as Civic shows. In my understanding, it is actually part of God's Love towards man, or "Chastisement" as it is written, "IF A MAN ACCEPTS THE CORRECTION". If they don't accept God's Word as trustworthy for correction, it will be considered an attack. I doubt that you will ever consider the Scriptures I post, or my understanding of them because of your adopted religion and your stated position of being "superior in knowledge" to me and others.

You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions about me, but I will let you know if I need you in the future.

J.

 

[civic]

'For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that He was buried,
and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ( Psa,16:10. Isa.53:9 -11. Jon.1:17 )
And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;
.. of whom the greater part remain unto this present,
.... but some are fallen asleep.
After that, He was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.'
(1Cor. 15:3-8)

Hello @civic,
I come to this entry via another thread, in which you reference this as part of your response there. However, I now find myself wanting to respond to this. I agree the resurrection of Christ is the vital ingredient by which our souls are saved and the gift of life given as promised by God the Father. Resurrection being the evidence, like the fire that ignited the sacrificial offerings of the Old Testament, that the sacrifice had been received and the sins atoned for. Praise God!

Praise God!

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Amen !!!

 

[synergy]

I agree... but I don't see how what you say invalidates the fact that God has forgiven and regenerated the saints of the Old Testament.
The Spirit of God has always acted on people, and there is abundant evidence in the Scriptures about that.
The Pentecost was not the initiation of any salvation period for humans.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding you

Christian regeneration is a unique work of the Holy Spirit that became fully realized only after the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus.

In the Old Testament, there are promises and foreshadowings of spiritual renewal, but the full reality of regeneration—the new birth—did not occur until the New Testament era. This is because regeneration is intrinsically tied to Jesus’ atoning death, resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.


1. Old Testament Foreshadowing:

Prophecies like Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 speak of a future time when God would give His people a "new heart" and write His law within them. These promises pointed forward to the inward transformation that would come with the New Covenant.

While the Holy Spirit was active in the Old Testament, His role was limited to specific individuals for particular tasks (e.g., empowering prophets, judges, and kings). There was no universal regeneration or indwelling of the Spirit for all believers.


2. The Role of the Cross:

Regeneration became possible only after Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection because:

Atonement for Sin: The barrier of sin was removed by Jesus’ death (Hebrews 9:11-15, Colossians 2:13-14). Without the forgiveness of sin, there could be no spiritual renewal or union with God.

Defeat of Death: Jesus’ resurrection defeated the power of sin and death, enabling believers to share in His victory and new life (Romans 6:4-5, 1 Corinthians 15:20-22).

Inauguration of the New Covenant: The New Covenant, sealed by Jesus’ blood (Luke 22:20), brought the fulfillment of the promises of spiritual renewal and the indwelling Holy Spirit.


3. The Outpouring of the Holy Spirit:

At Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), the Holy Spirit was poured out on all believers, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies (Joel 2:28-29). This marked the beginning of the Spirit’s work of regeneration for all who believe in Christ.

Jesus explained that the Holy Spirit could only come in this fullness after His glorification (John 7:37-39). The Spirit’s work of regeneration is thus a direct result of Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension.

 

[synergy]

If someone takes any verse from the Quran or the Bible to do bad things, that's a sin.
Let me give you an example:

Based on certain verses, you believe that biological death originates from Adam's sin. Right?
Well, that's a mistake. It has no scientific, logical or ethical basis.
But that's not a sin. It is just a mistake. You won't have to ask forgiveness for having believed such thing.

So Allah created Adam immediately with physical and spiritual death. That confirms that Allah is a god of death. The Ancient Greeks had a god of death called Thanatos. Allah and Thanatos are the same god.

You may ask Him about that topic that has been of so much interest for you.
He may teach you about His favorite topic: God's mercy and generosity.

Your avoidance of the Jew-hating cut-throat Quran verses confirms that the Quran was inspired by a god of death, called allah.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Don't deflect-read what I have posted-seems you and civic is under the impression we can "attack" other members online at will.

The one out of reality is you since you can't get rid of that beam in your eye. You need help.

J.

Members? What is the context of your comments?

I explained myself well. Deal with what I said or I'll just ignore you like I have before.

 

[Johann]

Members? What is the context of your comments?

I explained myself well. Deal with what I said or I'll just ignore you like I have before.

Go right ahead please-put me on ignore.

J.

 

[mikesw]

If someone takes any verse from the Quran or the Bible to do bad things, that's a sin.
Let me give you an example:

Based on certain verses, you believe that biological death originates from Adam's sin. Right?
Well, that's a mistake. It has no scientific, logical or ethical basis.
But that's not a sin. It is just a mistake. You won't have to ask forgiveness for having believed such thing.

The situation of Genesis 1-3 shows ethics -- it shows the sin of seeking one's own will over against God's instruction. We also see that sin has its consequences -- whether by God or by direct cause-and-effect sequences. Even physical death might be God's wisdom to prevent humanity continually walking on earth with no chance of redemption with God.
Consequently, Pancho Frijoles' assumptions about there being no scientific, logical or ethical basis just presents unfounded assumptions -- speculations.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Go right ahead please-put me on ignore.

J.

I didn't say I was going to put you on ignore. I said that I would ignore you. If you refuse to identify the context of your claims after appealing to context yourself then I have no other choice.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Christian regeneration is a unique work of the Holy Spirit that became fully realized only after the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus.

In the Old Testament, there are promises and foreshadowings of spiritual renewal, but the full reality of regeneration—the new birth—did not occur until the New Testament era. This is because regeneration is intrinsically tied to Jesus’ atoning death, resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

Thanks for the explanation, Synergy.
I may not be as active in the Forum in the rest of the month.

Let me share with you examples about the regeneration I am talking about:

A woman who was dishonest, is changed into an honest woman.​

A man who was violent, is changed into a peaceful man.​

​

Such changes have been observed since the dawn of humanity, and this is the rebirth or transformation I am referring to.
Whether those people have been Chinese or Iranian, ancient Israelites or Zoroastrians, the fact remains the fact.

If you want to consider those regenerations "partial", in contrast with the regenerations of Christians which are "fully realized", it would be good to know what difference it makes in the life they had lived.

If we cannot identify an objective difference, all that rests is to resort to a circular argument.
Let me give you an example of what I mean:

Suppose that a guy called Nephi come and tell us that the regeneration we have experienced so far is only partial, because the plenitude of regeneration is the "Mormon regeneration" that is achieved only within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.​

Suppose we challenge Nephi about how the "Mormon regeneration" is different. He replies that Mormon regeneration is the one achieved by performing certain sacred rituals at the Mormon Temple, and having a celestial marriage, that will place us in the state of exaltation as gods, whereas "our regenerations" are OK but will grant us less happiness in a lesser kingdom.​

​

Wouldn't that explanation be a circular argument?​

"The proof that you both are not truly and fully regenerated, synergy and Pancho, is that you guys have not achieved the Mormon regeneration in the Mormon Temple following the Mormon rituals, because such regeneration is only achieved through the Mormon Temple following the Mormon rituals."​

​

The only way to prove Nephi that he is wrong, is to show them the example of people whose life has objectively changed, for centuries, without the need of performing Mormon rituals in the Mormon Temple. You and I are examples of this.​

​

If Nephi decided to cling to his circular argument, he would say that the case of El Volka, my teacher of Chemistry at High School, is a good example of true and full regeneration, while our cases are not. How does Nephi know? Easy! if synergy had been truly and fully regenerated, he would a devoted Mormon "sealed" with his wife in the Temple... and Pancho would have never abandoned the Mormon Church when he was 22, becoming an apostate.​

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear @Johann

I am glad that you are interacting respectfully with our brother @Studyman.
I will be more than happy to reassume our conversations if you are still interested.
May our God keep blessing you and your family.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So Allah created Adam immediately with physical and spiritual death.

Spiritual death is the result of man's moral choices. Physical death is not.
The God you worship invented physical death. You must be grateful for it, as you are grateful for your physical life.

That confirms that Allah is a god of death. The Ancient Greeks had a god of death called Thanatos. Allah and Thanatos are the same god.

Your avoidance of the Jew-hating cut-throat Quran verses confirms that the Quran was inspired by a god of death, called allah.

No. It rather confirms your unwillingness to listen to the context.

1. The principles of mercy and justice are eternal and present in the Tanakh, the New Testament and The Quran.
2. Defensive war does not violate these principles. On the contrary, it is a moral imperative.
3. The Scriptures prescribe specific actions for military defense every time Scriptures are written in war time.
4. Those specific actions depend on whether the believers are in a political/material position to defend themselves.
5. The New Testament was written in a narrow window of 60 years, where believers were NOT in a political/material position to defend themselves.
6. During the period of the New Testament, the Roman Empire provided the necessary protection for some time (which was welcomed by Paul), and when it started persecution against Christians, there was no way to resist it militarily (there was no Christian State).
7. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus or his disciples criticized or invalidated the instructions of previous prophets to defend Israel militarily. If Jesus or his apostles had lived in a specific Christian kingdom (say, The Roman Empire after Constantine, or an Ostrogod kingdom) they would have preached the necessary actions to defend themselves in case of war... and we would have those teachings written in Scripture.
8. The better proof that Christians did not see any explicit abrogation to war actions in the New Testament, is that Christian kings and lords engaged in bloody wars, supported by Christian leaders of their time. We don't find Christian saints in the Middle Ages, for example, calling kings to repentance for having defended their people against an enemy.
9. The Quran does not teach hatred against peaceful Jews, but defense against Jewish enemies.

 

[synergy]

Thanks for the explanation, Synergy.
I may not be as active in the Forum in the rest of the month.

Let me share with you examples about the regeneration I am talking about:

A woman who was dishonest, is changed into an honest woman.​

A man who was violent, is changed into a peaceful man.​

​

Such changes have been observed since the dawn of humanity, and this is the rebirth or transformation I am referring to.
Whether those people have been Chinese or Iranian, ancient Israelites or Zoroastrians, the fact remains the fact.

If you want to consider those regenerations "partial", in contrast with the regenerations of Christians which are "fully realized", it would be good to know what difference it makes in the life they had lived.

King David is an excellent example of someone who possessed faith in God, repented, and looked forward to the future when God would give His people a "new heart" and write His law within them. See Ezekiel 36:26-27. These promises pointed forward to the inward transformation that would come with the Cross (New Covenant).

If we cannot identify an objective difference, all that rests is to resort to a circular argument.
Let me give you an example of what I mean:

Suppose that a guy called Nephi come and tell us that the regeneration we have experienced so far is only partial, because the plenitude of regeneration is the "Mormon regeneration" that is achieved only within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.​

Suppose we challenge Nephi about how the "Mormon regeneration" is different. He replies that Mormon regeneration is the one achieved by performing certain sacred rituals at the Mormon Temple, and having a celestial marriage, that will place us in the state of exaltation as gods, whereas "our regenerations" are OK but will grant us less happiness in a lesser kingdom.​

​

Wouldn't that explanation be a circular argument?​

"The proof that you both are not truly and fully regenerated, synergy and Pancho, is that you guys have not achieved the Mormon regeneration in the Mormon Temple following the Mormon rituals, because such regeneration is only achieved through the Mormon Temple following the Mormon rituals."​

​

The only way to prove Nephi that he is wrong, is to show them the example of people whose life has objectively changed, for centuries, without the need of performing Mormon rituals in the Mormon Temple. You and I are examples of this.​

​

If Nephi decided to cling to his circular argument, he would say that the case of El Volka, my teacher of Chemistry at High School, is a good example of true and full regeneration, while our cases are not. How does Nephi know? Easy! if synergy had been truly and fully regenerated, he would a devoted Mormon "sealed" with his wife in the Temple... and Pancho would have never abandoned the Mormon Church when he was 22, becoming an apostate.​

Nephi is disconnected from history. Which OT Prophet ever talked about a "celestial marriage"?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

King David is an excellent example of someone who possessed faith in God, repented, and looked forward to the future when God would give His people a "new heart" and write His law within them.

King David was not looking to a distant future. He was asking that renewal as immediately as he was asking forgiveness.
Please read Psalm 51 and share with us where exactly David is looking into the future.

See Ezekiel 36:26-27. These promises pointed forward to the inward transformation that would come with the Cross (New Covenant).

I see your point, in that the understanding of the laws of God would be something spiritualized, "embedded in the heart", because that is what Jesus emphasized.
This has nothing to do with the fact that people were inwardly transformed centuries ago.

Nephi is disconnected from history. Which OT Prophet ever talked about a "celestial marriage"?

It wouldn't matter for Nephi.
Who OT prophet ever talked about baptism? You believe in baptism despite its absence from the Tanakh. Don't you?
Well, Nephi believes in celestial marriage in the Temple even if it is not in the Bible, as it was revealed centuries later to Joseph Smith.

The point I am making is that Nephi would require from you to accept and perform certain things to prove you are truly "regenerated", according to his definition of regeneration.

If a definition of regeneration entails believing doctrines or performing rites that we don't believe or perform, then we are not regenerated... no matter how clear we show how our lives have changed.

In contrast, if a definition of regeneration is based on an objective change in our way of living, then we can prove Nephi and everyone else that we have been regenerated.

 

[synergy]

Spiritual death is the result of man's moral choices. Physical death is not.
The God you worship invented physical death. You must be grateful for it, as you are grateful for your physical life.

You're missing the point. God brought in physical & spiritual death only after man sinned. Allah, on the other hand, has no power over death, having brought it in immediately upon Adam creation. Therefore, he is the god of death because he has no power over death.

No. It rather confirms your unwillingness to listen to the context.

1. The principles of mercy and justice are eternal and present in the Tanakh, the New Testament and The Quran.
2. Defensive war does not violate these principles. On the contrary, it is a moral imperative.
3. The Scriptures prescribe specific actions for military defense every time Scriptures are written in war time.
4. Those specific actions depend on whether the believers are in a political/material position to defend themselves.
5. The New Testament was written in a narrow window of 60 years, where believers were NOT in a political/material position to defend themselves.
6. During the period of the New Testament, the Roman Empire provided the necessary protection for some time (which was welcomed by Paul), and when it started persecution against Christians, there was no way to resist it militarily (there was no Christian State).
7. There is no evidence whatsoever that Jesus or his disciples criticized or invalidated the instructions of previous prophets to defend Israel militarily. If Jesus or his apostles had lived in a specific Christian kingdom (say, The Roman Empire after Constantine, or an Ostrogod kingdom) they would have preached the necessary actions to defend themselves in case of war... and we would have those teachings written in Scripture.
8. The better proof that Christians did not see any explicit abrogation to war actions in the New Testament, is that Christian kings and lords engaged in bloody wars, supported by Christian leaders of their time. We don't find Christian saints in the Middle Ages, for example, calling kings to repentance for having defended their people against an enemy.
9. The Quran does not teach hatred against peaceful Jews, but defense against Jewish enemies.

The facts are that the entire Quran is viewed as holy, not portions of it as you're trying to convince us. Sorry, the facts speak for themselves. The Quran does not have its cut throat verses abrogated as the NT has already done for the OT violent verses. Facts are facts. I stand on objective evidence. You should too.