God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[mikesw]

I do believe what I have highlighted in red from your post, my friend.
It is just that the cure Jesus offered was not the belief in his deity, or substitutionary blood atonement, or physical resurrection.
Why do I say it was not? Becase He didn't referred to it, even when He had plenty of chances to do it!

You can't argue that the doctor hid the cure from the ears of his enemies as part of his strategy to heal the patients....
that he spent three years beating around the bush giving nice sermons about how to be kind to people, without applying the treatment.
No. The doctor came to give the remedy to his patients, even risking his life!


Please reflect: how could Jesus have sent the 70 to communities to preach and heal, without providing them with the essence on how to enter the Kingdom? Then.. what those 70 preached about?

Pancho's interpretation neglects the full testimony of scripture, as if only part of the testimony is important. He also neglects that Paul and the others provide the post-resurrection insight that accumulates the testimony of scripture plus the actual events.
Jesus's action in his walk on earth was as a prophet to warn Israel of the judgment coming upon them. He did not have to tell the plainly that he was going to die for their sins. Many details were revealed to the disciples before Jesus's death on the cross but the details of redemption were not to make sense until the day of Pentecost. If the people recognized their need to repent, the information they needed was available through the scriptures (hence the recognition given to the Bereans) plus the preaching of the gospel by the disciples and later followers.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Back to the atonement

How did Jesus view His own death, atonement for sin ?

We see the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation- through His blood the New Covenant

Thanks for the beautiful verses about the love of Jesus.

My wife and I have a friend in common, a scientist, who barely escaped from his apartment when it got fire, after the explosion of a gas leak. Then he remembered that his dear dog had been left behind. He ran back to the apartment in flames and rescued it, but got severely burned all over his skin. He stayed several days in the Intensive Care Unit. His face will remain with deep scars for the rest of his life (in fact, he wore a mask for several weeks, until he decided to let his disfigured face be known by all. He did this out of love.



This is the essence of love, but not just the love of Jesus for us: it is the kind of love Jesus expect us to have for each other. We can be saviors of our friends.... but this is not substitutionary atonement.

"This is My commandment: that you love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) ​

​

I recognize and praise Jesus for having sacrificed his life so that we can get inspired by his love and do the same for others who are in need, physically or spiritually. But this is not substitutionary atonement.
The good shepherd is not trying to pay God a ransom for his sheep. He is fighting the wolves.



****

Look how Jesus describes and compares his own mission to other messengers from God. There is no ransom involved. There is a message to be delivered, and the messengers risk and sacrifice their lives in order to deliver that message. This is martyrdom.

There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and built a wall around it. He dug a winepress in it and built a tower. Then he rented it to vinedressers and went into a distant country. When the season of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers to receive his fruit.​

“The vinedressers took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did likewise to them. Last of all, he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’​

“But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they caught him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. (Matthew 21:33-39)​

 

[synergy]

I do believe what I have highlighted in red from your post, my friend.
It is just that the cure Jesus offered was not the belief in his deity, or substitutionary blood atonement, or physical resurrection.
Why do I say it was not? Becase He didn't referred to it, even when He had plenty of chances to do it!

You can't argue that the doctor hid the cure from the ears of his enemies as part of his strategy to heal the patients....

I'm not saying that he hid it. I'm saying that the antidote was not even available because the Cross had not happened yet. The antidote was available only after the Cross.

that he spent three years beating around the bush giving nice sermons about how to be kind to people, without applying the treatment.
No. The doctor came to give the remedy to his patients, even risking his life!

Again, the Cure Treatment was not even available until after the Cross and Resurrection. Only then were the Apostles commissioned to spread the Faith (Cure).

Please reflect: how could Jesus have sent the 70 to communities to preach and heal, without providing them with the essence on how to enter the Kingdom? Then.. what those 70 preached about?

To essentially prepare the way for Christ and his Kingdom, to physically heal the sick, and to exercise control over evil spirits. They had no further authority because the Cross had not happened yet.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thanks for the beautiful verses about the love of Jesus.

My wife and I have a friend in common, a scientist, who barely escaped from his apartment when it got fire, after the explosion of a gas tank. Then he remembered that his dear dog had been left behind. He ran back to the apartment in flames and rescued it, but got severely burned all over his skin. He stayed several days in the Intensive Care Unit. His face will remain with deep scars for the rest of his life (in fact, he wore a mask for several weeks, until he decided to let his disfigured face be known by all. He did this out of love.

This is the essence of love, but not just the love of Jesus for us: it is the kind of love Jesus expect us to have for each other. We can be saviors of our friends.... but this is not substitutionary atonement.

"This is My commandment: that you love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) ​

​

I recognize and praise Jesus for having sacrificed his life so that we can get inspired by his love and do the same for others who are in need, physically or spiritually. But this is not substitutionary atonement.
The good shepherd is not paying God a ransom for his sheep. He is fighting the wolves.

View attachment 1152

****

Look how Jesus describes and compares his own mission to other messengers from God. There is no ransom involved. There is a message to be delivered, and the messengers risk and sacrifice their lives in order to deliver that message. This is martyrdom.

There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and built a wall around it. He dug a winepress in it and built a tower. Then he rented it to vinedressers and went into a distant country. When the season of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers to receive his fruit.​

“The vinedressers took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did likewise to them. Last of all, he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’​

“But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they caught him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. (Matthew 21:33-39)​

If you're an inspiration, why are you talking about Jesus instead of yourself?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Pancho's interpretation neglects the full testimony of scripture, as if only part of the testimony is important. He also neglects that Paul and the others provide the post-resurrection insight that accumulates the testimony of scripture plus the actual events.
Jesus's action in his walk on earth was as a prophet to warn Israel of the judgment coming upon them. He did not have to tell the plainly that he was going to die for their sins. Many details were revealed to the disciples before Jesus's death on the cross but the details of redemption were not to make sense until the day of Pentecost. If the people recognized their need to repent, the information they needed was available through the scriptures (hence the recognition given to the Bereans) plus the preaching of the gospel by the disciples and later followers.

He is trying to garner praise from the good works of another.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm not saying that he hid it. I'm saying that the antidote was not even available because the Cross had not happened yet. The antidote was available only after the Cross.

The antidote had been available for many centuries before the cross.
There is no evidence that God told any of the sinners that they had to wait for centuries in the Sheol to be forgiven. On the contrary, people in the Old Testament were confident to have been forgiven.

Paul recognized that David was sure about having obtained the blessing of forgiveness. No need to wait for centuries.

"Even David describes the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness without works:
“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin"

So David believed in the existence of persons who had been effectively forgiven by God (including David himself). There is no "limbo" of uncertainty in the Scriptures.

To essentially prepare the way for Christ and his Kingdom, to heal the sick, and to exercise control over evil spirits. They had no further authority because the Cross had not happened yet.

If casting out "demons" is not spiritual healing, what is it?
Dyer himself speaks about Christ coming to undo the works of the devil. That started happening before the cross and without asking the sick person any creed as a condition.

When Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah the mission of the Messiah, that included freeing people from sin, he stated: “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”[e]
20 Then He rolled up the scroll, and He gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all those who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

IN CONCLUSION: Nobody had to wait until Christ crucifixion or resurrection to be forgiven and transformed. The grace of God has always been available to everybody everywhere.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Again, the Cure Treatment was not even available until after the Cross and Resurrection. Only then were the Apostles commissioned to spread the Faith (Cure).

If the cure was substitutionary atonement, then God would have sent Christ soon after the fall, for example, in the form of Abel to be sacrificed as soon as possible and get the antidote available for all generations to come.

Indeed, there was no urgency for God to send Jesus, because people could be forgiven using the same eternal process of forgiveness.
STEP 1: The sinner repents and seeks change
STEP 2: God forgives and change

 

[synergy]

Thanks for the beautiful verses about the love of Jesus.

My wife and I have a friend in common, a scientist, who barely escaped from his apartment when it got fire, after the explosion of a gas leak. Then he remembered that his dear dog had been left behind. He ran back to the apartment in flames and rescued it, but got severely burned all over his skin. He stayed several days in the Intensive Care Unit. His face will remain with deep scars for the rest of his life (in fact, he wore a mask for several weeks, until he decided to let his disfigured face be known by all. He did this out of love.

View attachment 1152

This is the essence of love, but not just the love of Jesus for us: it is the kind of love Jesus expect us to have for each other. We can be saviors of our friends.... but this is not substitutionary atonement.

"This is My commandment: that you love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) ​

​

I recognize and praise Jesus for having sacrificed his life so that we can get inspired by his love and do the same for others who are in need, physically or spiritually. But this is not substitutionary atonement.
The good shepherd is not trying to pay God a ransom for his sheep. He is fighting the wolves.



****

Look how Jesus describes and compares his own mission to other messengers from God. There is no ransom involved. There is a message to be delivered, and the messengers risk and sacrifice their lives in order to deliver that message. This is martyrdom.

There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and built a wall around it. He dug a winepress in it and built a tower. Then he rented it to vinedressers and went into a distant country. When the season of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers to receive his fruit.​

“The vinedressers took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did likewise to them. Last of all, he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’​

“But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they caught him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. (Matthew 21:33-39)​

Excellent analogy of what Jesus did for us. Jesus is your friend and we are the dog. Jesus went to Hades and back through the Cross and rescued us out of Hades. And we should emulate that in our lives. Without Jesus doing that we would be all lost just like the dog would be lost without his master rescuing him. No other religion can claim to do the same as Jesus did in Christianity. With all other religions you're left to burn in Hades although God offers another possible way out as I mentioned before.

 

[synergy]

If the cure was substitutionary atonement, then God would have sent Christ soon after the fall, for example, in the form of Abel to be sacrificed as soon as possible and get the antidote available for all generations to come.

Indeed, there was no urgency for God to send Jesus, because people could be forgiven using the same eternal process of forgiveness.
STEP 1: The sinner repents and seeks change
STEP 2: God forgives and change

You raise a good question. The Bible says that only in the fullness of time was Jesus sent to redeem man. I can only venture a guess that mankind was not yet ready for Jesus until then. Maybe someone has a better or more in depth answer than that. I'm going to study this more...

4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

 

[synergy]

The antidote had been available for many centuries before the cross.
There is no evidence that God told any of the sinners that they had to wait for centuries in the Sheol to be forgiven. On the contrary, people in the Old Testament were confident to have been forgiven.

Paul recognized that David was sure about having obtained the blessing of forgiveness. No need to wait for centuries.

"Even David describes the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness without works:
“Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin"

So David believed in the existence of persons who had been effectively forgiven by God (including David himself). There is no "limbo" of uncertainty in the Scriptures.

At least forward a verse that talks about salvation. You've failed to do that. Until then, your statements fail.

In fact, you've only offered a verse that talks about forgiveness that is Level #4, not at the Salvific Forgiveness Level.

I could easily terminate the discussion here but for the sake of argument, let's continue on to your next comments.

If casting out "demons" is not spiritual healing, what is it?
Dyer himself speaks about Christ coming to undo the works of the devil. That started happening before the cross and without asking the sick person any creed as a condition.

Jay Dyer also talked about the Cross...

When Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah the mission of the Messiah, that included freeing people from sin, he stated: “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.”[e]
20 Then He rolled up the scroll, and He gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all those who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

He's proclaiming Himself. And how did he free up those oppressed in Hades? By the Cross.

IN CONCLUSION: Nobody had to wait until Christ crucifixion or resurrection to be forgiven and transformed. The grace of God has always been available to everybody everywhere.

Everyone had to wait for the Cross to take effect before they could be saved. No exceptions!

Jesus had to first die for his Testament to take effect.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood

Also, Hebrews 11 talks about a dozen OT Saints that had not yet received what was promised to them by God:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Studyman]

Amen, my brother.

And then, once we all recognize that we interpret Scriptures according to different lenses, I ask the question, which I think is relevant:
Which interpretation inspires us to be as God wants us to be? Which interpretation gets us closer to love to God and our neighbors?

My brother, I didn't say, and do not believe that every person interprets the Scripture through different Lenses. My point is that those who adopt the religious sect of the Catholic religion, interpret scriptures through the Lens of the doctrine's traditions and philosophies of the Catholic Religion. Same with SDA, and the BBS and the Jehovah Witness, Bahi' etc. No different than the Jews who interpreted Scriptures thought the lens of the doctrines and traditions of the religious sect of the Pharisees. At least this is my understanding. But those Jews who didn't adopt the popular religious sect of the Pharisees, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, they interpretated the Scriptures differently, and were united in thought. And Caleb and Joshua, also didn't interpret God's Words through the "Lens" of those religious men, who professed to know God, who surrounded them. Through what lens did they interpret Gods Word? This is a question whose answer is worthy or seeking.

I completely understand your point. But I would ask, "Why must men seek the interpretations of competing religious businesses of this world God placed us in"? Especially given the warnings against such practice all over the bible. Who has convinced men to partake in this popular tradition? Who created this tradition of choosing a religious sect or business and then adopting their religious philosophies, interpretations, judgments, high days, etc., as their own.

The Holy Scriptures do not promote such a practice, in fact, Jesus said "Be not therefore like unto them". As it is written, "God doesn't dwell in manmade shrines of worship", regardless of how expensive, elaborate or plain they are. It is this practice that causes the divisions, in my view, much in the same way Eve listened and considered the words of the "Other voice" who "professed to know God", in the world God placed her in. Had she trusted Gods Word, and not the voice who convinced her to reject God's Word and trust her own human intellect instead, imagine how different things would have been.

That's where we come to some interesting realities:

There are Trinitarian Christians, Protestant and Catholic, who believe that God can forgive and transform the life of Muslims, Jews, or people who do not share all their religious beliefs.

They believe in the Trinity, but not force that belief that as a condition to be saved.
They believe in the substitutionary blood atonement of Christ, but not force that belief that as a condition to be saved.
They believe in the physical body of resurrected Christ, but not force that belief that as a condition to be saved.

These Christians know that sending billions of humans loved by God to hell for an eternal torment, based on their religious affiliation or creed, is an unspeakable evil.

I have come to the conclusion years ago, after escaping the philosophies, in large part, of this world's religious sects and businesses, that I have no business spending my time wondering or worrying about what God chooses to do with those who adopt this world's religions. I don't believe humans are born with immortality, because the Holy Scriptures teach that we are mortal, and immortality is a gift of God. I find no evidence in Scriptures that God hates mankind so much that HE would raise them from the dead, give them the gift of immortality, only to drop them in a fire reserved for wicked angels that deceived them, so they could be tortured in unspeakable agony for a trillion years, and more. But this is one of "many" doctrines and traditions promoted and believed on by people who interpret scriptures through the Lens of the religious sects and businesses of this world.

According to my understanding, gained from study of the Holy Bible, God's Gospel, that is, the Gospel "of Christ", that is, the Gospel "that was in Christ", the Gospel "Christ Promoted", is written for me. To reveal to me the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man. (As defined by the God of Abraham in the Torah) And this to effect changes in "me". To show "ME", my sin. To bring about change in "me". To change "my heart", to effect "my" vision. To show "me" in the way that I should go.

Paul and Jesus both teach that these things are accomplished through "me" being a "Doer" of the instructions promoted by the Holy Scriptures, not hearers only, as it seems "you" have also come to know. Which fills me with Joy.

So when you speak of those who believe that everyone who doesn't adopt the religious sect that they have chosen to adopt, will be doomed to eternal torment, as others on this forum promote, you are not speaking of me. In my understanding, God is God and will "do" as HE wills, to whomever HE chooses. I am only responsible to, and only have power to, rule over "my" flesh, and to submit "myself" to God, or as Paul teaches, "Yield myself" to the God of the Scriptures he taught from.

But that doesn't mean I can't discern a religious philosophy or doctrine based on what is written in Scriptures? And what if someone refuses to look into the Scriptures referenced, choosing instead to cling to their adopted religious philosophy?

I think Paul answers this for me.

Rom. 3: 3 For what if some did not believe? shall "their" unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

And my Lord, the Christ Jesus also said;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So for me, I am not preparing to justify myself, when I meet God or the High Priest of God He Sends, to say to Him, "But Lord, the religious sect of this world I adopted, taught on your name, they built huge religious businesses in your name. They created amazing shrines of worship in your name. They created images of you and high days in worship of you, all in your Name.

Only for Him to declare to me again, what HE has declared from the very beginning, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

I can bring these things up to my brothers, but it is beyond my power to make them consider.

So, what I am begging @civic, @synergy and @Johann to accept is that God can forgive and transform those billions of people, if they repent and allow to be transformed, including me as a Baha'i, my wife as an atheist, my daughters as new age, my sister as agnostic, and my mother as an ex-JW.

I can see your point. But I would ask you to consider the Centurian who witnessed the Words of the prophesied Messiah that God sent to him, according to the Law and Prophets, and the righteousness he observed. Should the Centurian then continue to worship the Roman God's while professing the righteousness of this man? Or this Centurian, having witnessed and heard the Words of the Prophesied Messiah that God sent, shall he look for another, is this what God intended? And seek instead a different prophet, with different writings, promoting a different lifestyle with different judgments and different definitions of Holy and Clean with feasts of a different lord?

Or would it be God's intent that after he saw these things His God wrought through Him, that he might look into the Life of this man, and the God HE "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey, and the instructions in righteousness HE lived by, based on the Holy Writing of the Torah that HE promoted?

Spiritually speaking, I am this Centurian. Born into a world with thousands of religions, and their manmade images of God, manmade high days in worship of this image. Manmade judgments, commandments and laws. But like Abraham, God showed me this Christ, and the Gospel HE promoted. And commanded me to deny myself and leave my old life and the religions of this world I partook of, to a life I have never known. And I have Yielded myself in worship to this God, and the Priest HE sent to cleanse me.

I believe He is worthy of my honor. Will God destroy those who reject Him and His instruction in favor of this world's religious businesses and sects? Who am I to know one way or another? I only know what HE promised to me through His Son, and I believe Him.

And if we are seeking God's Righteousness, and God's Kingdom, as this Jesus instructs, shall God not reveal them to us?

Great questions Pancho, thanks for engaging with me, and thanks for sharing your understanding, and offering me the opportunity to share mine. I believe it is good for men to ponder such things.

 

[civic]

My brother, I didn't say, and do not believe that every person interprets the Scripture through different Lenses. My point is that those who adopt the religious sect of the Catholic religion, interpret scriptures through the Lens of the doctrine's traditions and philosophies of the Catholic Religion. Same with SDA, and the BBS and the Jehovah Witness, Bahi' etc. No different than the Jews who interpreted Scriptures thought the lens of the doctrines and traditions of the religious sect of the Pharisees. At least this is my understanding. But those Jews who didn't adopt the popular religious sect of the Pharisees, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, they interpretated the Scriptures differently, and were united in thought. And Caleb and Joshua, also didn't interpret God's Words through the "Lens" of those religious men, who professed to know God, who surrounded them. Through what lens did they interpret Gods Word? This is a question whose answer is worthy or seeking.

I completely understand your point. But I would ask, "Why must men seek the interpretations of competing religious businesses of this world God placed us in"? Especially given the warnings against such practice all over the bible. Who has convinced men to partake in this popular tradition? Who created this tradition of choosing a religious sect or business and then adopting their religious philosophies, interpretations, judgments, high days, etc., as their own.

The Holy Scriptures do not promote such a practice, in fact, Jesus said "Be not therefore like unto them". As it is written, "God doesn't dwell in manmade shrines of worship", regardless of how expensive, elaborate or plain they are. It is this practice that causes the divisions, in my view, much in the same way Eve listened and considered the words of the "Other voice" who "professed to know God", in the world God placed her in. Had she trusted Gods Word, and not the voice who convinced her to reject God's Word and trust her own human intellect instead, imagine how different things would have been.




I have come to the conclusion years ago, after escaping the philosophies, in large part, of this world's religious sects and businesses, that I have no business spending my time wondering or worrying about what God chooses to do with those who adopt this world's religions. I don't believe humans are born with immortality, because the Holy Scriptures teach that we are mortal, and immortality is a gift of God. I find no evidence in Scriptures that God hates mankind so much that HE would raise them from the dead, give them the gift of immortality, only to drop them in a fire reserved for wicked angels that deceived them, so they could be tortured in unspeakable agony for a trillion years, and more. But this is one of "many" doctrines and traditions promoted and believed on by people who interpret scriptures through the Lens of the religious sects and businesses of this world.

According to my understanding, gained from study of the Holy Bible, God's Gospel, that is, the Gospel "of Christ", that is, the Gospel "that was in Christ", the Gospel "Christ Promoted", is written for me. To reveal to me the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of man. (As defined by the God of Abraham in the Torah) And this to effect changes in "me". To show "ME", my sin. To bring about change in "me". To change "my heart", to effect "my" vision. To show "me" in the way that I should go.

Paul and Jesus both teach that these things are accomplished through "me" being a "Doer" of the instructions promoted by the Holy Scriptures, not hearers only, as it seems "you" have also come to know. Which fills me with Joy.

So when you speak of those who believe that everyone who doesn't adopt the religious sect that they have chosen to adopt, will be doomed to eternal torment, as others on this forum promote, you are not speaking of me. In my understanding, God is God and will "do" as HE wills, to whomever HE chooses. I am only responsible to, and only have power to, rule over "my" flesh, and to submit "myself" to God, or as Paul teaches, "Yield myself" to the God of the Scriptures he taught from.

But that doesn't mean I can't discern a religious philosophy or doctrine based on what is written in Scriptures? And what if someone refuses to look into the Scriptures referenced, choosing instead to cling to their adopted religious philosophy?

I think Paul answers this for me.

Rom. 3: 3 For what if some did not believe? shall "their" unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

And my Lord, the Christ Jesus also said;

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So for me, I am not preparing to justify myself, when I meet God or the High Priest of God He Sends, to say to Him, "But Lord, the religious sect of this world I adopted, taught on your name, they built huge religious businesses in your name. They created amazing shrines of worship in your name. They created images of you and high days in worship of you, all in your Name.

Only for Him to declare to me again, what HE has declared from the very beginning, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

I can bring these things up to my brothers, but it is beyond my power to make them consider.



I can see your point. But I would ask you to consider the Centurian who witnessed the Words of the prophesied Messiah that God sent to him, according to the Law and Prophets, and the righteousness he observed. Should the Centurian then continue to worship the Roman God's while professing the righteousness of this man? Or this Centurian, having witnessed and heard the Words of the Prophesied Messiah that God sent, shall he look for another, is this what God intended? And seek instead a different prophet, with different writings, promoting a different lifestyle with different judgments and different definitions of Holy and Clean with feasts of a different lord?

Or would it be God's intent that after he saw these things His God wrought through Him, that he might look into the Life of this man, and the God HE "Yielded Himself" a servant to obey, and the instructions in righteousness HE lived by, based on the Holy Writing of the Torah that HE promoted?

Spiritually speaking, I am this Centurian. Born into a world with thousands of religions, and their manmade images of God, manmade high days in worship of this image. Manmade judgments, commandments and laws. But like Abraham, God showed me this Christ, and the Gospel HE promoted. And commanded me to deny myself and leave my old life and the religions of this world I partook of, to a life I have never known. And I have Yielded myself in worship to this God, and the Priest HE sent to cleanse me.

I believe He is worthy of my honor. Will God destroy those who reject Him and His instruction in favor of this world's religious businesses and sects? Who am I to know one way or another? I only know what HE promised to me through His Son, and I believe Him.

And if we are seeking God's Righteousness, and God's Kingdom, as this Jesus instructs, shall God not reveal them to us?

Great questions Pancho, thanks for engaging with me, and thanks for sharing your understanding, and offering me the opportunity to share mine. I believe it is good for men to ponder such things.

Do you believe Trinitarians are lost ?

 

[Studyman]

It is commonly quoted among our Evangelical friends the text of Romans 10:9 " If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

So, when the evangelical pastor asks: What should we do to be saved? the evangelical brother answers "Confessing with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe sincerely that God raised Him from dead".

However, Jesus got this same question and his answer was: "Keep the commandments". (Mathew 19:17)
So, what should we answer? Is it about confessing that Jesus is Lord and resurrected, or about keeping the commandments?
How to reconcile the two things?

We should read the apostles in the light of what Jesus said directly and not the other way around.

Paul have also said: "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Cor 7:19)
The author of 1 John said: "This we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." (1 John 2:3) and "he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him" (1 John 3:24)
Furthermore, in the Book of Revelation, we have "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."
Jesus, in his last words revealed in the Bible, warns: "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

The apparent discrepancy is solved when we understand that there is no repentance without fruit of repentance, there is no faith without works, and there is no true confession but that pronounced with the mouth of our behavior.

Yes, Very good and Truthful post Pancho.

This is clearly shown also in the life of Paul.

When He had adopted the religious sect of the Pharisees, he lived by and promoted the commandments of men "they taught" for doctrines and walked in their traditions which caused him to transgress God's commandments. This religious lifestyle, although popular in the circles he frequented, and adopted by "many", caused him to become blind concerning his own behavior. He speaks to this condition.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

And again;

2 Thess. 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

As a Pharisee Paul was convinced that he was a child of Abraham, and heirs to the promise, or as it is called today, "Saved". But he had become vain in his imagination, because even though he "professed to know God" "in works" he denied him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"

But not everyone refused to Glorify God, "as God", as it is written;

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So did God bring to these Jews "a strong delusion" like He did to Paul? Was their foolish heart also darkened? Let's hear what the Scriptures teach about these folks who had not adopted the philosophies and traditions of the religious sect of the Pharisees.

Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us "in the house of his servant David"; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

I'm sure you can see the magnificent contrast here. Here were the "Doctors of the Law", grown up in the knowledge of that great theologian, Gamaliel, who professed to have perfect understanding of the Hebrew and Greek meaning for the words in the bible that was complete, which far surpassed the ancient transcripts and pieces of what we have today. And they couldn't see what was right in front of them, that their own Scriptures had prophesied for centuries.

And yet this minor Priest, whose job in the temple was to burn incense, not only knew more than the chief Priest and Scribes concerning the Messiah, but believed in Him before HE was even born, and knew Him when HE was a newborn baby needing His diaper changed. Truly a testament to the power of obedience, and the curse of disobedience, as it is also written;

Is. 29: 13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with "their lips" do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept "of men":

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of "their" wise men shall perish, and the understanding of "their" prudent men shall be hid.

Great post Pancho, as it is written in the Prophets.

Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Therefore:

2 Pet. 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, (Because of this Truth) beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, "be diligent that ye may be found of him" in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[Studyman]

Do you believe Trinitarians are lost ?

If I call Jesus Lord, Lord, but reject God's Judgments and many of His commandments, create images of God in the likeness of anything, create my own high days and sabbaths, and refuse to "Live by" God's Word, then I don't think it would matter much to God or Jesus, if I was a Trinitarian or not.

 

[synergy]

If I call Jesus Lord, Lord, but reject God's Judgments and many of His commandments, create images of God in the likeness of anything, create my own high days and sabbaths, and refuse to "Live by" God's Word, then I don't think it would matter much to God or Jesus, if I was a Trinitarian or not.

We are created images of God. Is that a problem?

Apostle John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit in the "Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10). The "Lord's Day" is a direct translation of κυριακῇ which is "Sunday" in the Greek Language. IOW, John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit on Sunday (κυριακῇ). Is that a problem?

Rev 1:10 ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, καὶ ἤκουσα ὀπίσω μου φωνὴν μεγάλην ὡς σάλπιγγος

Rev_1:10 I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[Johann]

We are created images of God. Is that a problem?

Apostle John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit in the "Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10). The "Lord's Day" is a direct translation of κυριακῇ which is "Sunday" in the Greek Language. IOW, John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit on Sunday (κυριακῇ). Is that a problem?

Rev 1:10 ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, καὶ ἤκουσα ὀπίσω μου φωνὴν μεγάλην ὡς σάλπιγγος

Rev_1:10 I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The problem, as I see it, is that if we don’t have love-this includes everyone, such as @Studyman-
everything is in vain, as Scripture says:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Including this- cliques

Walk in Love
Scriptural Basis: "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us." (Ephesians 5:2)

Paul exhorts believers to imitate Christ’s sacrificial love in their relationships and actions.

2. Rejoice Always
Scriptural Basis: "Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!" (Philippians 4:4)
This command emphasizes maintaining joy, rooted in the believer’s relationship with God, regardless of circumstances.

3. Be Transformed by Renewing Your Mind
Scriptural Basis: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Romans 12:2)

Paul calls for a spiritual and intellectual renewal that aligns one’s life with God’s will.

4. Put on the Full Armor of God
Scriptural Basis: "Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11)

This metaphorical imperative encourages preparation for spiritual battles through faith, righteousness, and the Word of God.

5. Bear One Another’s Burdens
Scriptural Basis: "Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2)
Christians are instructed to support each other, embodying Christ’s love and care within the community.

6. Pray Without Ceasing
Scriptural Basis: "Pray without ceasing." (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

Paul emphasizes the importance of constant communion with God through prayer, reflecting dependence and trust.

7. Flee Sexual Immorality
Scriptural Basis: "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body." (1 Corinthians 6:18)

This command encourages purity and respect for the body as a temple of the Holy Spirit.

8. Be Kind and Forgive
Scriptural Basis: "And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

Paul calls for kindness, compassion, and forgiveness, reflecting God’s forgiveness of believers.

9. Do All Things Without Complaining
Scriptural Basis: "Do all things without complaining and disputing." (Philippians 2:14)

This imperative promotes humility and a positive spirit in relationships and work, avoiding division.

10. Set Your Mind on Things Above
Scriptural Basis: "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth." (Colossians 3:2)

Paul urges believers to focus on eternal realities and God’s kingdom rather than worldly concerns.

Avoid Favoritism
"My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism." (James 2:1)

James warns against partiality, such as giving preferential treatment to some while excluding others, which is characteristic of cliques.

2. Pursue Unity
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Paul exhorts believers to reject divisive behavior and strive for unity in the body of Christ.

3. Do Not Cause Divisions
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them." (Romans 16:17)

This verse warns against divisive individuals or groups who disrupt the harmony of the community.

4. Do Nothing Out of Selfish Ambition
"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others." (Philippians 2:3-4)
Cliques often arise from pride or selfishness, but Paul encourages humility and a focus on others' needs.

5. Do Not Exclude Others
"For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." (Romans 12:4-5)
The church is called to be inclusive, recognizing that every member is essential to the body of Christ.

6. Love Without Partiality
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." (James 2:8-9)

Genuine love does not exclude others or form exclusive groups but treats everyone equally.

7. Encourage One Another
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

Instead of forming cliques that can isolate others, believers are called to foster a spirit of encouragement and inclusivity.

8. No Divisions in the Body
"There should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other." (1 Corinthians 12:25)

Paul emphasizes that every part of the body of Christ is equally important, leaving no room for exclusive factions.

9. Love as the Mark of True Discipleship
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:34-35)


Love is the defining characteristic of Christ's followers and inherently opposes cliquish behavior.

10. Welcome One Another
"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." (Romans 15:7)
Believers are instructed to be welcoming and inclusive, reflecting the acceptance they have received from Christ.

J.

 

[Studyman]

The problem, as I see it, is that if we don’t have love-this includes everyone, such as @Studyman-
everything is in vain, as Scripture says:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Including this- cliques

Walk in Love
Scriptural Basis: "And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us." (Ephesians 5:2)

Paul exhorts believers to imitate Christ’s sacrificial love in their relationships and actions.

2. Rejoice Always
Scriptural Basis: "Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!" (Philippians 4:4)
This command emphasizes maintaining joy, rooted in the believer’s relationship with God, regardless of circumstances.

3. Be Transformed by Renewing Your Mind
Scriptural Basis: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Romans 12:2)

Paul calls for a spiritual and intellectual renewal that aligns one’s life with God’s will.

4. Put on the Full Armor of God
Scriptural Basis: "Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11)

This metaphorical imperative encourages preparation for spiritual battles through faith, righteousness, and the Word of God.

5. Bear One Another’s Burdens
Scriptural Basis: "Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2)
Christians are instructed to support each other, embodying Christ’s love and care within the community.

6. Pray Without Ceasing
Scriptural Basis: "Pray without ceasing." (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

Paul emphasizes the importance of constant communion with God through prayer, reflecting dependence and trust.

7. Flee Sexual Immorality
Scriptural Basis: "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body." (1 Corinthians 6:18)

This command encourages purity and respect for the body as a temple of the Holy Spirit.

8. Be Kind and Forgive
Scriptural Basis: "And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

Paul calls for kindness, compassion, and forgiveness, reflecting God’s forgiveness of believers.

9. Do All Things Without Complaining
Scriptural Basis: "Do all things without complaining and disputing." (Philippians 2:14)

This imperative promotes humility and a positive spirit in relationships and work, avoiding division.

10. Set Your Mind on Things Above
Scriptural Basis: "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth." (Colossians 3:2)

Paul urges believers to focus on eternal realities and God’s kingdom rather than worldly concerns.

Avoid Favoritism
"My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism." (James 2:1)

James warns against partiality, such as giving preferential treatment to some while excluding others, which is characteristic of cliques.

2. Pursue Unity
"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Paul exhorts believers to reject divisive behavior and strive for unity in the body of Christ.

3. Do Not Cause Divisions
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them." (Romans 16:17)

This verse warns against divisive individuals or groups who disrupt the harmony of the community.

4. Do Nothing Out of Selfish Ambition
"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others." (Philippians 2:3-4)
Cliques often arise from pride or selfishness, but Paul encourages humility and a focus on others' needs.

5. Do Not Exclude Others
"For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." (Romans 12:4-5)
The church is called to be inclusive, recognizing that every member is essential to the body of Christ.

6. Love Without Partiality
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers." (James 2:8-9)

Genuine love does not exclude others or form exclusive groups but treats everyone equally.

7. Encourage One Another
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." (1 Thessalonians 5:11)

Instead of forming cliques that can isolate others, believers are called to foster a spirit of encouragement and inclusivity.

8. No Divisions in the Body
"There should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other." (1 Corinthians 12:25)

Paul emphasizes that every part of the body of Christ is equally important, leaving no room for exclusive factions.

9. Love as the Mark of True Discipleship
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:34-35)


Love is the defining characteristic of Christ's followers and inherently opposes cliquish behavior.

10. Welcome One Another
"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." (Romans 15:7)
Believers are instructed to be welcoming and inclusive, reflecting the acceptance they have received from Christ.

J.

Johann

Regurgitating scripture can make you-or anyone for that matter- sound very "spiritual" and demons can quote scripture. What should we "look" for?

 

[Studyman]

Is that so? Maybe he’s hesitant to share Babulah’s teachings here-but let’s leave him aside for now.

Are you a Unitarian?

I refuse to accept or adopt the labels created by those who "transform themselves" into apostles of Christ, for the purpose of exalting themselves as superior to those who do not adopt the philosophies of their specific religious business.

Unitarians typically reject the doctrine of the Trinity, holding that God is one singular person rather than three distinct persons in one essence. They often see Jesus as a prophet, moral teacher, or uniquely inspired individual but not as God in the flesh. Their theology emphasizes reason, free will, and a personal interpretation of Scripture or spiritual truth.
Summary: Unitarians deny the Trinity, view God as one person, and see Jesus as non-divine, focusing on reason and individual interpretation of faith.

Yes?

I know only that Jesus Loved His Father and lived by His Father's "Every Word" and because of this honor and respect that HE showed to His Father, HE was awarded by His Father a Great Honor and is said to be the first of "many" to receive this honor. And that HE instructed me to Love His Father in the same way, and said it was the Greatest Commandment in the Law. And HE said if I Love Him, that is, the Jesus "of the bible", I will be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only, as was the case for the hypocrites that gather each week in the Synagogues to be seen of men, and those "many" who will called Him Lord, Lord, but didn't listen to Him.

I have no time or inclination to engage in the squabbling that this world's religious franchises and businesses engage in concerning how many persons God is. And there isn't any evidence that such a squabble existed anywhere in the Holy scriptures. Clearly, the Jesus "of the bible" was interested in more important things, like Loving His Father, and Living by His Father's Words and believing that HIS Father sent Him to save us, and repentance and our "works" and how we treat others, etc.

You are free to spend your short time on earth engaging in such squabbles if you choose.

What's YOUR theme of spiritual transformation?

I think Paul describes my understanding of the Spiritual transformation Jesus promoted, which is the "theme" I have adopted.

Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein "in time past" ye walked according to the "course" (Path, religion, career, race) of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh "in the children of disobedience": 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature "the children of wrath", even as others.

But I have learned from the Jesus "of the bible";

Eph. 4: 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That "ye put off" concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that "ye put on" the new man, which "after God" (Not the religions of this world) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So how does a man "put on" this new man?

Eph. 2: 10 For we are (NOW) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not the Pope, not the BBS or SDA or JW's) hath before ordained that we should "walk in them".

By "Yielding myself" a servant to obey God, like it is written that the Jesus "of the bible" did, I am no longer a Child of disobedience, rather, as Paul teaches, I am transformed into a child of obedience, like my Savior, the Jesus "of the Bible".

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

This is the Spiritual Transformation that Jesus promoted.

"Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is Perfect". In this way, I can walk, even as He walked, as the Holy Scriptures also instruct.

1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

Regurgitating scripture can make you-or anyone for that matter- sound very "spiritual" and demons can quote scripture.

No doubt this can be true for those who live to justify their own religious traditions, judgments, high days and religious philosophies. But one thing I have found is that if a man considers "EVERY WORD" which proceeds from the mouth of God, as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches His people to do, the religious traditions, judgments, high days and religious philosophies being promoted are exposed as to whether they are wrought in God or not. Paul calls them the "Sword of the Spirit" and it is part of the Armor of God to "put on" in order to stand against the wiles of the devil, who from the very beginning, quoted "Some" of God's Word.

Again, are you Unitarian and give me your definition of being "spiritually transformed?"

Thanks.

You are welcome.

 

[Johann]

I think Paul describes my understanding of the Spiritual transformation Jesus promoted, which is the "theme" I have adopted.

Eph. 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein "in time past" ye walked according to the "course" (Path, religion, career, race) of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh "in the children of disobedience": 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature "the children of wrath", even as others.

But I have learned from the Jesus "of the bible";

Eph. 4: 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That "ye put off" concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that "ye put on" the new man, which "after God" (Not the religions of this world) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So how does a man "put on" this new man?

Eph. 2: 10 For we are (NOW) his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not the Pope, not the BBS or SDA or JW's) hath before ordained that we should "walk in them".

By "Yielding myself" a servant to obey God, like it is written that the Jesus "of the bible" did, I am no longer a Child of disobedience, rather, as Paul teaches, I am transformed into a child of obedience, like my Savior, the Jesus "of the Bible".

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

This is the Spiritual Transformation that Jesus promoted.

"Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is Perfect". In this way, I can walk, even as He walked, as the Holy Scriptures also instruct.

1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

I have no problem with the above Scripture verses.

"In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."

Put on

Lexical Meaning:
The verb ἐνδύω means "to clothe oneself" or "to put on." It was commonly used in Greek literature to describe the physical act of putting on garments. In the New Testament, the term often carries a metaphorical sense, referring to adopting a particular character, attitude, or spiritual quality.

2. Grammatical Insights:
Form and Tense:
The verb ἐνδύω appears in various forms in the New Testament, such as:

Aorist Middle/Passive Imperative: (e.g., Ephesians 4:24 – ἐνδύσασθαι)

Aorist: Denotes a single, decisive action, often emphasizing the need to make a conscious and definitive choice.

Middle Voice: Suggests personal involvement or responsibility, meaning the subject participates in the action for their benefit. Believers are to actively and personally "put on" the new man, implying intentionality in their spiritual transformation.

Imperative Mood: Expresses a command, highlighting that this action is not optional but expected of believers.

Aorist Active Infinitive: (e.g., Romans 13:14 – ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν)
Used to indicate purpose or result, such as the act of "putting on" Christ as a deliberate goal in one's life.

Syntax:
In these passages, ἐνδύω often governs an accusative object (what is being "put on"). For instance:

Ephesians 4:24: ἐνδύσασθαι τὸν καινὸν ἄνθρωπον ("to put on the new man").

Romans 13:14: ἐνδύσασθε τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν ("put on the Lord Jesus Christ").
The accusative object reveals the spiritual nature of the "garment" to be donned, such as Christ Himself or a renewed nature.

3. Metaphorical Usage:
In the New Testament, ἐνδύω transcends its literal meaning and serves as a metaphor for adopting spiritual attributes or aligning oneself with Christ’s character. Key examples include:

Putting on Christ: Romans 13:14 uses the verb to convey the idea of taking on Christ’s identity and characteristics, living as He lived.

Putting on the New Man: Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 link this to spiritual renewal and living in righteousness and holiness.

Putting on Virtues: Colossians 3:12 speaks of clothing oneself with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, emphasizing the visible, relational impact of spiritual transformation.

Putting on Armor: Ephesians 6:11 uses ἐνδύω to describe putting on the "full armor of God," denoting spiritual preparedness and reliance on God’s power.

4. Theological Implications:
Divine Enablement and Human Responsibility:
While "putting on" is an imperative command directed at believers, the ability to fulfill it is empowered by God. This duality reflects the synergy between divine grace and human agency in sanctification.

Transformation and Identity:
The use of ἐνδύω emphasizes that believers are adopting a new identity that corresponds to their salvation in Christ. They are "clothing" themselves in a way that reflects their spiritual reality.

Permanence of the Act:

The aorist tense often indicates a decisive, once-for-all action. This aligns with the theological idea that the "new man" is not merely an improvement of the old but a complete transformation into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).

5. Cultural and Historical Context:
In ancient Greek culture, garments symbolized status, identity, and belonging. To "put on" a garment often indicated adopting a new role or position. The metaphor of clothing in Scripture builds on this cultural understanding, portraying believers as those who have shed their old "garments" of sin and death to wear the righteousness and life of Christ.

6. Parallels and Word Studies:
The verb ἐνδύω aligns with other metaphors in Scripture, such as:

"Putting off" (ἀποτίθημι): Used to describe discarding sinful behaviors (Ephesians 4:22).
Clothing imagery in Isaiah 61:10: A prophetic vision of being "clothed with garments of salvation" and "covered with the robe of righteousness."
In conclusion, the Greek verb ἐνδύω in its grammatical and syntactical context emphasizes an active, intentional, and transformative act of assuming a new identity in Christ. This "putting on" is not superficial but signifies a profound spiritual renewal and alignment with God’s purposes.


1. The Context:
Ephesians 1 focuses on the spiritual blessings believers receive in Christ. The passage speaks to God’s plan for redemption, emphasizing the unity of salvation through Christ and the role of the Holy Spirit in affirming this relationship. Being "sealed" signifies a deep, eternal bond between God and believers, underscoring security and identity.

2. The Components of the Verse:
"In Him, you also": This phrase identifies Christ as the central figure in salvation. It highlights the universal nature of the gospel-open to all who hear and believe, including the Gentile audience of the Ephesian church.


"When you heard the word of truth": The process begins with hearing the gospel, which is described as the word of truth. This underscores the necessity of proclaiming the gospel so that people can respond in faith (Romans 10:17).


"The gospel of your salvation": Salvation is the heart of the gospel—the good news of being reconciled to God through Christ's life, death, and resurrection.


"Believed in Him": Faith is the necessary response to the gospel. It is not merely intellectual assent but trusting in Christ for salvation.


3. The Meaning of "Sealed with the Holy Spirit":
A Divine Mark of Ownership: A seal in ancient times signified ownership, authenticity, and security. Being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit means that believers belong to God, marked as His own.


The Promised Holy Spirit: This refers to Jesus’ assurance of the Spirit’s coming (John 14:16-17; Acts 1:4-5). The Holy Spirit’s role is to dwell within believers, guiding, teaching, and empowering them for godly living.


A Guarantee of Inheritance: The Spirit acts as a down payment or pledge (Greek: arrabōn), affirming that believers will receive the full inheritance of eternal life and all the blessings of salvation. This assurance is a foretaste of the complete redemption to come.


4. Key Implications for Believers:
Security in Salvation: The seal assures that salvation is secure and cannot be undone (John 10:28-29). The Spirit protects and preserves believers until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).


Identity in Christ: The seal confirms a believer’s identity as a child of God, part of His family, and an heir to His promises (Romans 8:15-17).


Empowerment for Life: The Holy Spirit works within believers to transform them into the likeness of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18), convict them of sin (John 16:8), and enable them to bear spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22-23).


Hope for the Future: The Spirit’s presence assures believers of their ultimate redemption and glorification, fostering confidence and perseverance amidst trials (Romans 8:23-25).


5. To the Praise of His Glory:
The final clause points to the purpose of this sealing-God’s glory. Salvation and the Spirit’s work within believers magnify God’s grace and faithfulness, prompting worship and a life that reflects His goodness.
Rom_13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Eph_6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


Col_3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.


2Ti_1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.


Phm_1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;


J.

 

[Johann]

I know only that Jesus Loved His Father and lived by His Father's "Every Word" and because of this honor and respect that HE showed to His Father, HE was awarded by His Father a Great Honor and is said to be the first of "many" to receive this honor. And that HE instructed me to Love His Father in the same way, and said it was the Greatest Commandment in the Law. And HE said if I Love Him, that is, the Jesus "of the bible", I will be a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only, as was the case for the hypocrites that gather each week in the Synagogues to be seen of men, and those "many" who will called Him Lord, Lord, but didn't listen to Him.

I have no time or inclination to engage in the squabbling that this world's religious franchises and businesses engage in concerning how many persons God is. And there isn't any evidence that such a squabble existed anywhere in the Holy scriptures. Clearly, the Jesus "of the bible" was interested in more important things, like Loving His Father, and Living by His Father's Words and believing that HIS Father sent Him to save us, and repentance and our "works" and how we treat others, etc.

You are free to spend your short time on earth engaging in such squabbles if you choose.

I noticed you don't answer questions directly-what you see as "squabbles" I see as-

1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

an answer. Gr. apologia (S# G627, Act_22:1). One of the most effective approaches possible in witnessing and personal evangelism is to become involved in the lives and activities of others who are not part of the Christian community, and let our lives prompt others to ask us questions about our faith. When this happens, we have earned a right to be heard, and can be more effective for Christ when we answer their questions about our faith, than if we try to force our faith upon persons who do not have an immediate interest in our message. +*Lev_19:17, +Deu_6:7 (T1073). Jos_22:21 note. *Pro_15:23; *Pro_15:28; +*Pro_22:21, Luk_12:11; Luk_24:14-15, +Act_19:33; Act_22:1; Act_24:10; Act_25:16; Act_26:2, Rom_14:12, *1Co_9:3, 2Co_7:11; 2Co_12:19, Php_1:7; Php_1:16, +Col_4:6, *2Ti_4:16, Tit_1:13, Heb_13:17.

J.