God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

More about the meaning of the new covenant, the embedding of God's law in our hearts, leading us to the spiritual sacrifice of our lives
This time now coming from 1 Peter 2:1-5

"Therefore put away all wickedness, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking. As newborn babies, desire the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow, if it is true that you have experienced that the Lord is good.​

Coming to Him as to a living stone who is rejected by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"​

Jesus Christ own sacrifice should make us offer up spiritual sacrifices to God. That's the point of Jesus sacrifice.
You, my friends, are called to be priests, just as Christ is priest. Priesthood was abolished: you are able to come to God directly as if you were priests.
You are called living stones, just as Christ is a living stone. The cornerstone of your faith is not the faith of what happened to Jesus in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, but what Jesus makes happen in your heart now.

Christ is no longer in our world. His blood was shed once and disappeared. However, you are in the world. You are the light of the world. You are the salt of the world. Christ lives in you and through you. You are the ones who know God. You are the priests, you are the kings, you are the ones who sit in the throne. Isn't this what the Bible teaches?

This is the new covenant that Jesus represented with his blood. It is the end of all previous (and inappropriate) reliance on blood shedding.
If you rely your salvation in a historical blood shedding that happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, you are not under the new covenant.
If you focus on the spiritual sacrifice and worship happening now in your life, you are.

 

[synergy]

More about the meaning of the new covenant, the embedding of God's law in our hearts, leading us to the spiritual sacrifice of our lives
This time now coming from 1 Peter 2:1-5

"Therefore put away all wickedness, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking. As newborn babies, desire the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow, if it is true that you have experienced that the Lord is good.​

Coming to Him as to a living stone who is rejected by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"​

Jesus Christ own sacrifice should make us offer up spiritual sacrifices to God. That's the point of Jesus sacrifice.
You, my friends, are called to be priests, just as Christ is priest. Priesthood was abolished: you are able to come to God directly as if you were priests.
You are called living stones, just as Christ is a living stone. The cornerstone of your faith is not the faith of what happened to Jesus in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, but what Jesus makes happen in your heart now.

Christ is no longer in our world. His blood was shed once and disappeared. However, you are in the world. You are the light of the world. You are the salt of the world. Christ lives in you and through you. You are the ones who know God. You are the priests, you are the kings, you are the ones who sit in the throne. Isn't this what the Bible teaches?

This is the new covenant that Jesus represented with his blood. It is the end of all previous (and inappropriate) reliance on blood shedding.
If you rely your salvation in a historical blood shedding that happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, you are not under the new covenant.
If you focus on the spiritual sacrifice and worship happening now in your life, you are.

The New Covenant (the Lord's Supper) is based on the Cross. You need to first understand the significance of the Cross and its vital role in Redemptive History before you can understand the Lord's Supper. What Jesus accomplished on the Cross is the spiritual basis of us carrying our own crosses and being lights in the world. Without that basis then it's just our works, which is no better than works of the law, which saves no one. The Baha'i faith has no pathway to salvation. The Baha'i can only be saved as Paul describes in Rom 2:12-16 which we discussed earlier.

Please have a look at this video and tell me what you think:

 

[civic]

More about the meaning of the new covenant, the embedding of God's law in our hearts, leading us to the spiritual sacrifice of our lives
This time now coming from 1 Peter 2:1-5

"Therefore put away all wickedness, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking. As newborn babies, desire the pure milk of the word, that by it you may grow, if it is true that you have experienced that the Lord is good.​

Coming to Him as to a living stone who is rejected by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"​

Jesus Christ own sacrifice should make us offer up spiritual sacrifices to God. That's the point of Jesus sacrifice.
You, my friends, are called to be priests, just as Christ is priest. Priesthood was abolished: you are able to come to God directly as if you were priests.
You are called living stones, just as Christ is a living stone. The cornerstone of your faith is not the faith of what happened to Jesus in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, but what Jesus makes happen in your heart now.

Christ is no longer in our world. His blood was shed once and disappeared. However, you are in the world. You are the light of the world. You are the salt of the world. Christ lives in you and through you. You are the ones who know God. You are the priests, you are the kings, you are the ones who sit in the throne. Isn't this what the Bible teaches?

This is the new covenant that Jesus represented with his blood. It is the end of all previous (and inappropriate) reliance on blood shedding.
If you rely your salvation in a historical blood shedding that happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago, you are not under the new covenant.
If you focus on the spiritual sacrifice and worship happening now in your life, you are.

The NC was not mentioned in that passage nice try

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

the New Covenant is in His blood just like He said it was. no blood means no forgiveness of sins. without the shedding of blood the bible emphatically states there is no forgiveness.

The Bible also emphatically says that

• God does not want blood sacrifices but a contrite heart (Jeremiah 7:22,23; Psalm 51:16, 17; Hosea 6:6, which was quoted by Jesus Himself!)
• The blood of sacrifices could not take away sins (Hebrews 10:3)

The texts are quoted at the bottom of the post.*

The Bible emphatically presents cases of repentance and forgiveness without any requirement from blood sacrifices.

• The case of David after his murder or Uriah
• The case of Isaiah, which forgiveness was represented by a different symbol (live coal)
• The case of the Ninevites
• The case of sick people receiving forgiveness in the gospels

Jesus addresses the topic of forgiveness without making any allusion to a requirement of blood substitutionary atonement

• The story of the pay collector and the Pharisee
• The story of the King who forgives his servant
• The story of the prodigal son
• The Lord's Prayer
• The prayer made on the cross for Roman soldiers

So, what do we have now? Some passages of the Bible say that without blood there is no remission of sins and some passages say God does not need nor requests blood to cleanse sins. We have two interpreations to consider

INTEPRETATION 1. God requests blood, the blood of an innocent, to forgive us
INTERPRETATION 2. God requests that we truly repent and change our ways. Blood is just a symbolic reminder of the process.

Only one interpretation can be true, and being right this time is of UTMOST IMPORTANCE. It is a matter of life or death, paradise or hell, for us and for billions of people, including the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD and repented.

So, here comes my question:
Which interpretation is aligned with reason and with mercy and justice?

WITH REASON: Primitive civilizations believed in the need to offer sacrifices to their gods to obtain a favor, such as deliverance from perils. But an All-Mighty, All-Merciful, Perfectly Just God knows the heart of everyone and does not need any material thing (blood, water, inciense, vegetable offerings) to do what He wants to do. God's mercy cannot be bought, because then it would not be mercy, by definition!

WITH MERCY AND JUSTICE: To make an innocent pay for the crime of other person is not just. Furthermore, to put the belief of such thing as a condition to avoid an eternal torment is an atrocity.

***

*QUOTES:

1. For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hoseah 6:6)
2. For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:16,17)
3. For I spoke not to your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this thing I commanded them, saying, “Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.” (Jeremiah 7:22,23)
4. "But in those sacrifices there is an annual reminder of sins. For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Hebrews 10:3)

 

[brightfame52]

no we are saved by faith which results in good works- see Ephesians 2:8-10. Works are the evidence we are saved- the fruit of the Spirit at work in the believer.

To be saved by faith in Christ Jesus is to be saved by faith in the Jesus and in the particular and specific works He performed to save His people from their sins.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The NC was not mentioned in that passage nice try

The Old Covenant was about written laws, blood sacrifices and priests.
The New Covenant is not about written laws, blood sacrifices and priests.
What is then the New Covenant all about?
Doesn't God said through Jeremiah that it is about the heart? Do we have to speculate about it?

So, the type of worship Peter is referring to in 1 Peter 2:1-5: is that of the new covenant. If you believe it is about the Old Covenant, please share with us your rationale.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

To be saved by faith in Christ Jesus is to be saved by faith in the Jesus and in the particular and specific works He performed to save His people from their sins.

To be saved by faith in Christ is to make the works He performed part of our life.
If we are not crucified with Christ his crucifixion is meaningless for our salvation.
Remember: Demons can also believe in his crucifixion and resurrection. They can give us a great lecture right here. Does that save them?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Baha'i can only be saved as Paul describes in Rom 2:12-16 which we discussed earlier.

My apologies for not having located that post. I know you made an important point.
Could you perhaps provide the link?

Please have a look at this video and tell me what you think:

Thanks. I will make a point of watching and commenting.

 

[brightfame52]

To be saved by faith in Christ is to make the works He performed part of our life.
If we are not crucified with Christ his crucifixion is meaningless for our salvation.
Remember: Demons can also believe in his crucifixion and resurrection. They can give us a great lecture right here. Does that save them?

To believe in Jesus,

Jesus and in the particular and specific works He performed to save His people from their sins.

 

[synergy]

To be saved by faith in Christ is to make the works He performed part of our life.
If we are not crucified with Christ his crucifixion is meaningless for our salvation.
Remember: Demons can also believe in his crucifixion and resurrection. They can give us a great lecture right here. Does that save them?

There is no one here who would dispute what you wrote above. That's not what we're arguing about.

What Jesus accomplished on the Cross is the spiritual basis of us carrying our own crosses and being lights in the world. Without that basis then it's just our works present, which is no better than works of the law, which saves no one nor can it.

You need to first understand the significance of the Cross and its vital role in Redemptive History. I sent you a video earlier. It's only about 15 minutes long but it's packed with valuable information.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The New Covenant (the Lord's Supper) is based on the Cross. You need to first understand the significance of the Cross and its vital role in Redemptive History before you can understand the Lord's Supper. What Jesus accomplished on the Cross is the spiritual basis of us carrying our own crosses and being lights in the world. Without that basis then it's just our works, which is no better than works of the law, which saves no one. The Baha'i faith has no pathway to salvation. The Baha'i can only be saved as Paul describes in Rom 2:12-16 which we discussed earlier.

Please have a look at this video and tell me what you think:

Although I do not agree with all Jay Dyer's views, I find uplifting with what he says in 4:15 "For us, every action of Christ from his incarnation to his ministry to his death and resurrection to his ascension, they are all part of the same redemptive story, which is the restoration of our nature"

Dyer is expanding the focus that is usually given to his crucifixion/resurrection to encompass his entire life, including his ministry. I find that true and inspiring. If you meditate about it, you will see that it is the totality of Jesus ministry, and not only the sacrifice on cross or resurrection, what is redemptive.

One powerful evidence of this is the episode when Jesus sent 70 of his disciples to preach and heal. They come back happy, telling how the power of God was on them to help the communities and persons they visited. Then Jesus says. “I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven." (Luke 10:18)

Satan's defeat, therefore, did not occur at a particular event nor depended on a particular event like crucifixion or resurrection. The people spiritually healed by the 70 were healed BEFORE Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, and certainly WITHOUT knowledge of a substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection of Jesus . If the disciples themselves had no clear idea about crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, less so the peasants, fishers, merchants, artisans or housewives they healed. Don't you think so?

In conclusion: Satan's defeat occurs every day, when people are healed by the grace of God, and such healing does not depend on havin a specific theological belief about substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection.

 

[civic]

To be saved by faith in Christ Jesus is to be saved by faith in the Jesus and in the particular and specific works He performed to save His people from their sins.

Nice dodge we were discussing the works of believers not Christs

 

[civic]

The Old Covenant was about written laws, blood sacrifices and priests.
The New Covenant is not about written laws, blood sacrifices and priests.
What is then the New Covenant all about?
Doesn't God said through Jeremiah that it is about the heart? Do we have to speculate about it?

So, the type of worship Peter is referring to in 1 Peter 2:1-5: is that of the new covenant. If you believe it is about the Old Covenant, please share with us your rationale.

The New Covenant is all about Jesus blood. There are plenty of passages declaring that is true.

Facts- There are 86 verses in the New Testament that mentions the word “blood.” There are 25 verses in the New Testament that mention Jesus's blood


Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of bloodthere is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

A Walk through Hebrews

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ​

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he tookthe blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Regarding Jay Dyer's view that

The New Covenant is all about Jesus blood. There are plenty of passages declaring that is true.

Thanks for the comprehensive post and the biblical quotations provided.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it is all about Jesus blood".
No covenant has ever been literally about blood. Not the old one, not the new one.
All references to blood in relation to God's forgiveness or to a commitment to God, are symbolic.
Blood has no intrinsic value for forgiveness. Same with water of baptism. By the same token, a cut foreskin had never any intrinsic value for a commitment to God, nor Samson's hair had intrnisic power to accomplish God's will. The bread and wine of the Lord Supper have never been literally the body and blood of Jesus.

Do we agree on that?

The Bible says that the new covenant is about God writing his Law in our hearts, about knowing God really.
The blood of Christ is the symbolic "signature", so to speak, of the new covenant, just as the blood of animals was the symbolic "signature" of the first covenant.
A covenant, though, is not about the signatures, but about the terms and promises. And the terms and promises of the new covenant are these:


Surely, the days are coming, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be according to the covenant
that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
because they broke My covenant,
although I was a husband to them,
says the Lord.
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My law within them
and write it in their hearts;
and I will be their God,
and they shall be My people.
34 They shall teach no more every man his neighbor
and every man his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,”
for they all shall know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest of them,
says the Lord,
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[brightfame52]

Nice dodge we were discussing the works of believers not Christian’s.

So do you know what Christs specifics are that resulted in the saving of His People ?

 

[synergy]

Although I do not agree with all Jay Dyer's views, I find uplifting with what he says in 4:15 "For us, every action of Christ from his incarnation to his ministry to his death and resurrection to his ascension, they are all part of the same redemptive story, which is the restoration of our nature"

Dyer is expanding the focus that is usually given to his crucifixion/resurrection to encompass his entire life, including his ministry. I find that true and inspiring. If you meditate about it, you will see that it is the totality of Jesus ministry, and not only the sacrifice on cross or resurrection, what is redemptive.

One powerful evidence of this is the episode when Jesus sent 70 of his disciples to preach and heal. They come back happy, telling how the power of God was on them to help the communities and persons they visited. Then Jesus says. “I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven." (Luke 10:18)

Satan's defeat, therefore, did not occur at a particular event nor depended on a particular event like crucifixion or resurrection. The people spiritually healed by the 70 were healed BEFORE Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, and certainly WITHOUT knowledge of a substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection of Jesus . If the disciples themselves had no clear idea about crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, less so the peasants, fishers, merchants, artisans or housewives they healed. Don't you think so?

In conclusion: Satan's defeat occurs every day, when people are healed by the grace of God, and such healing does not depend on havin a specific theological belief about substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection.

Good point that our human nature needed healing. That was accomplished in Christ at his Incarnation. What remained to be cured was our sin infection and death sentence. Our sin infection was cured at the Cross, our sins being nailed to the Cross, and death was crushed at his Resurrection. No other faith offers those cures, nor can they. For us to appropriate those cures one must acknowledge and believe that Jesus offers those cures. Just like a person consents to receive vaccinations, the same way a person consents to the healing powers of the Cross and Resurrection. That does not mean that the believer needs to know all the intricacies of the faith to be healed. Who does? Not me.

 

[Johann]

Regarding Jay Dyer's view that


Thanks for the comprehensive post and the biblical quotations provided.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "it is all about Jesus blood".
No covenant has ever been literally about blood. Not the old one, not the new one.
All references to blood in relation to God's forgiveness or to a commitment to God, are symbolic.
Blood has no intrinsic value for forgiveness. Same with water of baptism. By the same token, a cut foreskin had never any intrinsic value for a commitment to God, nor Samson's hair had intrnisic power to accomplish God's will. The bread and wine of the Lord Supper have never been literally the body and blood of Jesus.

Do we agree on that?

Absolutely not-but @synergy do believe in the latter. A Covenant ratified and establish in/by blood, not just any blood, but the Son on God-our High Priest, Prophet and King.

In your religion Jesus is a mere common man.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Under the premise of my previous post, I will comment briefly on the verses you kindly brought to the thread

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Correct. But this is not a substitutionary atonement. Otherwise Jesus would have talked about it clearly and explicity.
It is about the inauguration of the new convenant, which brings forgiveness based on the writing of the law of God in our hearts, which is what Jesus stressed over and over and over. Do you remember how many times He criticized the external form of religiosity and upheld a spiritual form of religiosity? Do you remember how many times Jesus stressed repentance and forgiveness?
Well, his blood represents all these teachings about forgiveness.
In this particular ocassion, in which they were celebrating the Passover, Jesus considered appropriate to compare the blood he was going to shed, with the blood shed by animals.

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We already saw that the same author recognizes few verses later (10:4) that "In those sacrifices there is an annual reminder of sins. 4 For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." In Hebrews 9:22 the author is talking about what the blood rituals were supposed to do... but that was not real. It was a symbol, a reminder.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the sou

That was symbolic. No bullock or sheep can atone sins.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Sure, but such blood was a symbol. Please note how I highlighted that the author recognizes that "gifts and sacrifices offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper"

The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption.

Did Jesus enter a "Most Holy Place" in a tabernacle? Where is that tabernacle?
Unless we are Seventh Day Adventists, we know that such thing is a metaphor.
There is no literal tabernacle. Jesus is not literally a High Priest. His blood does not literally erase sins.
The author is using the same symbols of the Old Covenant to illustrate the new Covenant.

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!

Jesus was historically crucified, no doubt about it. The blood he shed is literal, no doubt about it.
But His "offering of blood to God" is spiritual. It was not an actual trade or exchange. It was done through the Holy Spirit that dwelled in Him and who dwells in us. That's why, just like Jesus Christ, we can and should offer up a spiritual sacrifice to God.
"you also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5)

Do you see the connection between Hebrews 9 and 1 Peter 1?

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Again, ransom is an analogy of how slaves were bought by a person who wanted to set them free.
The Bible repeatedly present the condition of the sinner as a slave of a master (his flesh). Do we agree on that?
So, Jesus came to earth to teach us how to get free (free from the rule of the flesh). He did it although he knew he was going to be killed for doing that. He sacrificed himself for us. If we honor that life and death on the cross, by doing what He asked us to do, we will be freed from sin, as if He had paid a ransom.

Please notice that the metaphor of the ransom was not present in the teachings of Jesus about forgiveness.

• The brother of the prodigal son did not offer himself or his part of the state to pay for the prodigal son.
• Nobody offered up to pay for the debt of the servant before the king.
• The difference between the tax collector and the Pharisee was not that the tax collector had someone to pay a ransom while the Pharisee did not.

16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he tookthe blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.

This leaves clear that the blood was like a signature that inaugurated the first covenant.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

So, the blood of Christ was like a signature that inaugurated the new covenant.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

That's exactly what I am talking about.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,

There is no tabernacle to enter, and we don't need a sample of Jesus blood to enter it. It is all metaphor.

20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us

Exactly. Once again, the new convenant is about our hearts. We have no blood sprinkling our hearts literally, do we?
We have Jesus transforming our hearts. How? By doing what He asked us to do: repenting, being born again to a new life.

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

As above.
Mount Zion, heavenly Jerusalem, the speaking of the blood of Abel are all symbols. Have we literally entered heavenly Jerusalem? Did the blood of Abel speak? Well, then the priesthood of Jesus is symbolic, and the sprinkled blood is symbolic.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Again, the author of he epistle comparing symbols. Just as the bodies of the animals were burned outside the camp, Jesus suffered out side Jerusalem.
Now think: If Jesus had been killed within the walls of Jerusalem, would that fact have annulled Jesus mission? Of course not! Symbols are symbols: the spirit is the spirit.

 

[civic]

Under the premise of my previous post, I will comment briefly on the verses you kindly brought to the thread

Correct. But this is not a substitutionary atonement. Otherwise Jesus would have talked about it clearly and explicity.
It is about the inauguration of the new convenant, which brings forgiveness based on the writing of the law of God in our hearts, which is what Jesus stressed over and over and over. Do you remember how many times He criticized the external form of religiosity and upheld a spiritual form of religiosity? Do you remember how many times Jesus stressed repentance and forgiveness?
Well, his blood represents all these teachings about forgiveness.
In this particular ocassion, in which they were celebrating the Passover, Jesus considered appropriate to compare the blood he was going to shed, with the blood shed by animals.


We already saw that the same author recognizes few verses later (10:4) that "In those sacrifices there is an annual reminder of sins. 4 For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." In Hebrews 9:22 the author is talking about what the blood rituals were supposed to do... but that was not real. It was a symbol, a reminder.

That was symbolic. No bullock or sheep can atone sins.

Sure, but such blood was a symbol. Please note how I highlighted that the author recognizes that "gifts and sacrifices offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper"

Did Jesus enter a "Most Holy Place" in a tabernacle? Where is that tabernacle?
Unless we are Seventh Day Adventists, we know that such thing is a metaphor.
There is no literal tabernacle. Jesus is not literally a High Priest. His blood does not literally erase sins.
The author is using the same symbols of the Old Covenant to illustrate the new Covenant.



Jesus was historically crucified, no doubt about it. The blood he shed is literal, no doubt about it.
But His "offering of blood to God" is spiritual. It was not an actual trade or exchange. It was done through the Holy Spirit that dwelled in Him and who dwells in us. That's why, just like Jesus Christ, we can and should offer up a spiritual sacrifice to God.
"you also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5)

Do you see the connection between Hebrews 9 and 1 Peter 1?


Again, ransom is an analogy of how slaves were bought by a person who wanted to set them free.
The Bible repeatedly present the condition of the sinner as a slave of a master (his flesh). Do we agree on that?
So, Jesus came to earth to teach us how to get free (free from the rule of the flesh). He did it although he knew he was going to be killed for doing that. He sacrificed himself for us. If we honor that life and death on the cross, by doing what He asked us to do, we will be freed from sin, as if He had paid a ransom.

Please notice that the metaphor of the ransom was not present in the teachings of Jesus about forgiveness.

• The brother of the prodigal son did not offer himself or his part of the state to pay for the prodigal son.
• Nobody offered up to pay for the debt of the servant before the king.
• The difference between the tax collector and the Pharisee was not that the tax collector had someone to pay a ransom while the Pharisee did not.

This leaves clear that the blood was like a signature that inaugurated the first covenant.

So, the blood of Christ was like a signature that inaugurated the new covenant.

That's exactly what I am talking about.

There is no tabernacle to enter, and we don't need a sample of Jesus blood to enter it. It is all metaphor.

Exactly. Once again, the new convenant is about our hearts. We have no blood sprinkling our hearts literally, do we?
We have Jesus transforming our hearts. How? By doing what He asked us to do: repenting, being born again to a new life.



As above.
Mount Zion, heavenly Jerusalem, the speaking of the blood of Abel are all symbols. Have we literally entered heavenly Jerusalem? Did the blood of Abel speak? Well, then the priesthood of Jesus is symbolic, and the sprinkled blood is symbolic.


Again, the author of he epistle comparing symbols. Just as the bodies of the animals were burned outside the camp, Jesus suffered out side Jerusalem.
Now think: If Jesus had been killed within the walls of Jerusalem, would that fact have annulled Jesus mission? Of course not! Symbols are symbols: the spirit is the spirit.

Back to the atonement

How did Jesus view His own death, atonement for sin ?

We see the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation- through His blood the New Covenant

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

Scripture emphatically declares without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Jesus blood provided forgiveness of sins. Without it we have no gospel , no salvation , no eternal life.

The life the Bible teaches is in the blood. That’s why it was necessary for Jesus to make atonement for sin with His own blood.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Good point that our human nature needed healing. That was accomplished in Christ at his Incarnation. What remained to be cured was our sin infection and death sentence. Our sin infection was cured at the Cross, our sins being nailed to the Cross, and death was crushed at his Resurrection. No other faith offers those cures, nor can they. For us to appropriate those cures one must acknowledge and believe that Jesus offers those cures. Just like a person consents to receive vaccinations, the same way a person consents to the healing powers of the Cross and Resurrection. That does not mean that the believer needs to know all the intricacies of the faith to be healed. Who does? Not me.

I do believe what I have highlighted in red from your post, my friend.
It is just that the cure Jesus offered was not the belief in his deity, or substitutionary blood atonement, or physical resurrection.
Why do I say it was not? Becase He didn't referred to it, even when He had plenty of chances to do it!

You can't argue that the doctor hid the cure from the ears of his enemies as part of his strategy to heal the patients....
that he spent three years beating around the bush giving nice sermons about how to be kind to people, without applying the treatment.
No. The doctor came to give the remedy to his patients, even risking his life!


Please reflect: how could Jesus have sent the 70 to communities to preach and heal, without providing them with the essence on how to enter the Kingdom? Then.. what those 70 preached about?