God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[synergy]

It is commonly quoted among our Evangelical friends the text of Romans 10:9 " If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

So, when the evangelical pastor asks: What should we do to be saved? the evangelical brother answers "Confessing with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe sincerely that God raised Him from dead".

However, Jesus got this same question and his answer was: "Keep the commandments". (Mathew 19:17)
So, what should we answer? Is it about confessing that Jesus is Lord and resurrected, or about keeping the commandments?
How to reconcile the two things?

We should read the apostles in the light of what Jesus said directly and not the other way around.

That sounds so naive. Does an advancing army always communicate its full future strategy to the enemy? Before the Cross, would it be wise for Jesus to communicate his strategy of the Cross in detail to everyone and anyone? That would alert Satan not to have Jesus killed. Sure, Jesus mentioned his future death to his Disciples but not in detail as did Paul. After the victory, everything can be explained as Paul did. Think contextually.

 

[synergy]

"Transform" means to replace the old mindset by a new mindset, so that the old behavior is replaced by new behavior.

My best teacher at High School was "El Volka", in the class of Chemistry. That was the nickname everyone used to refer to him, because he had played in the local soccer team "Los Volkas".
After having been a good soccer player, he fell into the vice of alcohol, which damaged his family, his job, economy and self-esteem. Some people maliciously changed his nickname from "El Volka" to "El Vodka", referring to his affection for alcohol.

Then He met Christ. He repented. He started a new life. He quit alcohol and became a loving head of his family and an excellent, passionate teacher. He irradiated joy and energy, kindness and justice. He demanded a lot from all of us. Chemistry was a delight.
He attended his church regularly and he invited me and my family to his church one time. There he told us: "The center of the church is Jesus Christ". I could tell Jesus was the center of his life.
He died several years ago, and I hope to find him in the afterlife to thank him and tell him I loved him.

Was El Volka transformed? Yes. He had gone from one kind of mindset, the mind of the flesh, to another mindset, the mind of Christ. As a result, his old behavior was replaced by a new behavior.

Excellent Christian example. Now let's look at Muhammad who is the best example that Muslims can forward. Did he stop separating people's heads from their bodies? I don't think so.

 

[civic]

Hello @civic,

I wish this were not so: as for me it marks the point where I say, 'Goodbye'. Though I have thought it to be so previously, to have you confirm it closes the door to me. For I believe that there is only one God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ: and only one means of access to Him, and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ His only Begotten Son. Who died, was buried and rose again, and has ascended to God's right hand, where He now intercedes for us before the Father. Until the day dawn when He returns to judge the world in righteousness, and reign until all his enemies are placed beneath His feet.

There is only one faith (Eph.4)
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I believe the same thing. How can you as a believer ever reach the lost if you don’t have conversations with them and pursuade them with the truth like Paul did in Acts ?

 

[civic]

Of course not! But BBS and Bible Hub is listed on this Forum.

Correct?

J.

I believe so us there an issue I’m not aware of ?

 

[Johann]

I believe so us there an issue I’m not aware of ?

@Studyman accuses me of copying and pasting extensive teachings from sources like BBS, Grace Ambassadors, and Calvin. So, yes, there is an issue here.

J.

 

[Johann]

I believe the same thing. How can you as a believer ever reach the lost if you don’t have conversations with them and pursuade them with the truth like Paul did in Acts ?

In real time this would work, not online as this individual is promulgating his brand of religion online, despite the numerous warnings.

Then there's the issue of believers at loggerheads with each other.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Before the Cross, would it be wise for Jesus to communicate his strategy of the Cross in detail to everyone and anyone?

It would have been not only wise, but the right thing to do, if substitutionary blood atonement were an ESSENTIAL CONDITION to be forgiven and transformed.

Now, Jesus had mentioned his future death to his disciples... but as something that would prove that He was the Messiah
In fact, after resurrection, we have evidence that

• the disciples saw no connection between Jesus death on the cross and substitutionary atonement
• Jesus did not correct them, nor framed his death not in the context of substitutionary atonement. Instead, he explained it in the context of fulfilling the prophecies that identify Him as the Messiah... and a victorious one.

In the road to Emmaus, listen to what the disciples thought

“The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel." ​

In the beginning, for the disciples the death of his Master was a sign of an aborted messianic mission... a defeat. They were not happy thinking that now sins of men could be forgiven.
Let's look now how Jesus replies:

“O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ [The Anointed, The Messiah] to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."​

Jesus talks about his death as a step foreseen by the prophets that proved He was the Messiah, the victorious King of Israel. His death had not been a defeat, but an undeniable sign of his victory.
Israelites had been seeking and receiving forgiveness from God for centuries, without any Messiah's blood. So Jesus had no news to share about it. It was same old, same old:

STEP 1. The sinner repents and wants to change
STEP 2. God forgives and grants that change

 

[civic]

In real time this would work, not online as this individual is promulgating his brand of religion online, despite the numerous warnings.

Then there's the issue of believers at loggerheads with each other.

J.

I’ve known plenty of unbelievers and those from non Christian faiths that have become saved through online forums. God uses all kinds of mediums/ platforms to witness to the world such as tv, radio, forums, social media platforms etc

Don’t think no one got saved during the pandemic with lock downs ?

That’s no obstacle for God.

 

[Johann]

I’ve known plenty of unbelievers and those from non Christian faiths that have become saved through online forums

Ever read the reviews on online Christian Forums?

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Excellent Christian example.

It happens that El Volka met Christ through the Book of Mormon.
The Christ he followed was the son of a Father with flesh and bones, and the son of a Heavenly Mother, and the nephew of millions of gods.
The Christ he honored through the rest of his life had come to the Americas to preach to the descendants of Lamanites and Nephites, and the testimony of his words had been kept in Mount Cumorah, awaiting many centuries until the angel Moroni disclosed them to Joseph Smith.

The Christ he served had appointed him from pre-existence for a mission. In his preexistence, El Volka had met me and knew he would be an example for me and perhaps that I, along with other young students, would some day speak of him to others.

The church he invited me and my family to, was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

So, was El Volka forgiven and transformed?
Was his transformation hypocrisy? an illusion from the devil? the result of cultural and psychological factors? a demonstration of outward morality?

 

[civic]

Ever read the reviews on online Christian Forums?

J.

i don’t care much about other forums these days, to legalistic and controlling

 

[Johann]

ft

i don’t care much about other forums these days, to legalistic and controlling

What do you mean by "ft?" Typo error?

J.

 

[civic]

What do you mean by "ft?" Typo error?

J.

Yes that was a typo. Fixed it

 

[civic]

Also just like a church cannot please everyone and people come and go forums are no different in that sense. You cant please everyone.

There are things people believe that are not worth squabbling over and there are the essentials that are worth battling over. But my goal is to do it with respect so that a conversation can happen where we have an opportunity to share the truth with them. It’s up to the Holy Spirit to convict them. Our job is presenting the truth and praying for them

 

[Johann]

Yes that was a typo. Fixed it

Engaging with Non-Believers for Evangelism

Matthew 28:19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you."

This Great Commission encourages Christians to reach out to people of all nations, which would include those of other faiths. Allowing such individuals on forums could provide an opportunity to share the gospel and engage in evangelism.

1 Peter 3:15: "But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect."

A Christian forum that permits respectful discussion with non-believers could fulfill the call to defend the faith and share Christ's hope.

2. Avoiding Compromise or Corruption of Doctrine

2 Corinthians 6:14-15: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers, for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?"

While this passage warns against intimate partnerships with unbelievers, it could also caution against forums that allow undue influence of non-Christian ideologies, leading to confusion or compromise among believers.

2 Timothy 4:3-4: "For there will be a time when they will not put up with sound doctrine, but in accordance with their own desires, they will accumulate for themselves teachers, having an itching ear, and they will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn to myths."

Christian forums must ensure they uphold sound doctrine and prevent false teachings, which can sometimes infiltrate through interactions with those of other faiths.

3. The Example of Paul in Public Discourse

Acts 17:17: "So he was debating in the synagogue with the Jews and those who worshiped God, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there."

Paul openly debated and reasoned with non-believers in both religious and secular settings. This suggests that engagement with people of other faiths can be a biblical practice if done to share truth and glorify God.

1 Corinthians 9:22-23: "To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it."

Allowing non-believers to interact in a forum can align with Paul’s approach to meet people where they are for the sake of the gospel.

4. Guarding Against Division or Disruption

Titus 3:9-11: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and contentions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a divisive person after a first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Forums should monitor interactions to ensure discussions remain edifying and do not devolve into divisiveness or unprofitable arguments with those who reject the faith.

Romans 16:17: "Now I exhort you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause dissensions and temptations contrary to the teaching that you learned, and turn away from them."

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<


From a biblical perspective, allowing people of other faiths to participate in Christian forums can be consistent with the mission to share the gospel and defend the faith. However, this should be done with caution, ensuring sound doctrine is upheld, false teachings are addressed, and the purpose of glorifying Christ is maintained.

Moderation and discernment are essential to ensure the forum remains a place for spiritual growth and effective witness rather than division or compromise.

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<

Why aren't you protecting @Complete? You would let him go for voicing his concern? How many other members feel the same way? Would you let them all go for voicing their concerns?

J.

 

[Johann]

Engaging with Non-Believers for Evangelism

Matthew 28:19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you."

This Great Commission encourages Christians to reach out to people of all nations, which would include those of other faiths. Allowing such individuals on forums could provide an opportunity to share the gospel and engage in evangelism.

1 Peter 3:15: "But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect."

A Christian forum that permits respectful discussion with non-believers could fulfill the call to defend the faith and share Christ's hope.

2. Avoiding Compromise or Corruption of Doctrine

2 Corinthians 6:14-15: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers, for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?"

While this passage warns against intimate partnerships with unbelievers, it could also caution against forums that allow undue influence of non-Christian ideologies, leading to confusion or compromise among believers.

2 Timothy 4:3-4: "For there will be a time when they will not put up with sound doctrine, but in accordance with their own desires, they will accumulate for themselves teachers, having an itching ear, and they will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn to myths."

Christian forums must ensure they uphold sound doctrine and prevent false teachings, which can sometimes infiltrate through interactions with those of other faiths.

3. The Example of Paul in Public Discourse

Acts 17:17: "So he was debating in the synagogue with the Jews and those who worshiped God, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there."

Paul openly debated and reasoned with non-believers in both religious and secular settings. This suggests that engagement with people of other faiths can be a biblical practice if done to share truth and glorify God.

1 Corinthians 9:22-23: "To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it."

Allowing non-believers to interact in a forum can align with Paul’s approach to meet people where they are for the sake of the gospel.

4. Guarding Against Division or Disruption

Titus 3:9-11: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and contentions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a divisive person after a first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Forums should monitor interactions to ensure discussions remain edifying and do not devolve into divisiveness or unprofitable arguments with those who reject the faith.

Romans 16:17: "Now I exhort you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause dissensions and temptations contrary to the teaching that you learned, and turn away from them."

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<


From a biblical perspective, allowing people of other faiths to participate in Christian forums can be consistent with the mission to share the gospel and defend the faith. However, this should be done with caution, ensuring sound doctrine is upheld, false teachings are addressed, and the purpose of glorifying Christ is maintained.

Moderation and discernment are essential to ensure the forum remains a place for spiritual growth and effective witness rather than division or compromise.

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<

Why aren't you protecting @Complete? You would let him go for voicing his concern? How many other members feel the same way? Would you let them all go for voicing their concerns?

J.

If you have read my last line you would not have "liked" it.

Why aren't you protecting @Complete? You would let him go for voicing his concern? How many other members feel the same way? Would you let them all go for voicing their concerns?

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<

J.

 

[civic]

Engaging with Non-Believers for Evangelism

Matthew 28:19-20: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you."

This Great Commission encourages Christians to reach out to people of all nations, which would include those of other faiths. Allowing such individuals on forums could provide an opportunity to share the gospel and engage in evangelism.

1 Peter 3:15: "But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect."

A Christian forum that permits respectful discussion with non-believers could fulfill the call to defend the faith and share Christ's hope.

2. Avoiding Compromise or Corruption of Doctrine

2 Corinthians 6:14-15: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers, for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness?"

While this passage warns against intimate partnerships with unbelievers, it could also caution against forums that allow undue influence of non-Christian ideologies, leading to confusion or compromise among believers.

2 Timothy 4:3-4: "For there will be a time when they will not put up with sound doctrine, but in accordance with their own desires, they will accumulate for themselves teachers, having an itching ear, and they will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn to myths."

Christian forums must ensure they uphold sound doctrine and prevent false teachings, which can sometimes infiltrate through interactions with those of other faiths.

3. The Example of Paul in Public Discourse

Acts 17:17: "So he was debating in the synagogue with the Jews and those who worshiped God, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there."

Paul openly debated and reasoned with non-believers in both religious and secular settings. This suggests that engagement with people of other faiths can be a biblical practice if done to share truth and glorify God.

1 Corinthians 9:22-23: "To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it."

Allowing non-believers to interact in a forum can align with Paul’s approach to meet people where they are for the sake of the gospel.

4. Guarding Against Division or Disruption

Titus 3:9-11: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and contentions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a divisive person after a first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Forums should monitor interactions to ensure discussions remain edifying and do not devolve into divisiveness or unprofitable arguments with those who reject the faith.

Romans 16:17: "Now I exhort you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause dissensions and temptations contrary to the teaching that you learned, and turn away from them."

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<


From a biblical perspective, allowing people of other faiths to participate in Christian forums can be consistent with the mission to share the gospel and defend the faith. However, this should be done with caution, ensuring sound doctrine is upheld, false teachings are addressed, and the purpose of glorifying Christ is maintained.

Moderation and discernment are essential to ensure the forum remains a place for spiritual growth and effective witness rather than division or compromise.

>>>Forums should protect believers from influences that could lead them astray while still providing a space for healthy and respectful discourse.<<<

Why aren't you protecting @Complete? You would let him go for voicing his concern? How many other members feel the same way? Would you let them all go for voicing their concerns?

J.

Complete is free to express his/her opinions just like everyone else on the forum. That’s what makes it different here. We don’t Lord things over the members here. The rules and purpose of the forum section spells it out for everyone.

Also personally I hate moderating , I enjoy apologetics and discussing most any topic with people. That’s how I’m wired in real life too. Like an open forum discussion issuing with Q and A. I like this approach in our men’s discipleship groups and small home group studies.

 

[Johann]

Complete is free to express his/her opinions just like everyone else on the forum. That’s what makes it different here. We don’t Lord things over the members here. The rules and purpose of the forum section spells it out for everyone.

Also personally I hate moderating , I enjoy apologetics and discussing most any topic with people. That’s how I’m wired in real life too. Like an open forum discussion issuing with Q and A. I like this approach in our men’s discipleship groups and small home group studies.

So we can have Bahá'í members here challenging our faith in Christ with a pseudo-gospel, and this is permissible?

Galatians 1:6-9 warns about accepting any gospel that deviates from the one preached by Christ and the apostles, stating that even if an angel were to deliver a different gospel, they should be accursed. 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 reminds us that there is no fellowship between righteousness and lawlessness or between light and darkness. 2 John 1:10-11 cautions against welcoming or endorsing those who bring false teachings, as doing so is participating in their works.

Is allowing this consistent with guarding the truth?

J.

 

[synergy]

It would have been not only wise, but the right thing to do, if substitutionary blood atonement were an ESSENTIAL CONDITION to be forgiven and transformed.

Now, Jesus had mentioned his future death to his disciples... but as something that would prove that He was the Messiah
In fact, after resurrection, we have evidence that

• the disciples saw no connection between Jesus death on the cross and substitutionary atonement
• Jesus did not correct them, nor framed his death not in the context of substitutionary atonement. Instead, he explained it in the context of fulfilling the prophecies that identify Him as the Messiah... and a victorious one.

In the road to Emmaus, listen to what the disciples thought

“The things concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him. But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel." ​

In the beginning, for the disciples the death of his Master was a sign of an aborted messianic mission... a defeat. They were not happy thinking that now sins of men could be forgiven.
Let's look now how Jesus replies:

“O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ [The Anointed, The Messiah] to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."​

Jesus talks about his death as a step foreseen by the prophets that proved He was the Messiah, the victorious King of Israel. His death had not been a defeat, but an undeniable sign of his victory.
Israelites had been seeking and receiving forgiveness from God for centuries, without any Messiah's blood. So Jesus had no news to share about it. It was same old, same old:

STEP 1. The sinner repents and wants to change
STEP 2. God forgives and grants that change

The Road to Emmaus verses confirm what I said. Only after the victory of the Cross was complete did Christ explain the mission of the Cross in full detail. It would be total foolishness to explain to everyone (satan's minions included) all of God's plan before the Victory of the Cross was complete.

Conclusion: Salvific Forgiveness includes Eternal Life. That's only possible through the Cross. That's where our sins are forgiven, being nailed to the Cross. Salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God. Allah belittles the Cross and is therefore an Imposter.

 

[civic]

So we can have Bahá'í members here challenging our faith in Christ with a pseudo-gospel, and this is permissible?

Galatians 1:6-9 warns about accepting any gospel that deviates from the one preached by Christ and the apostles, stating that even if an angel were to deliver a different gospel, they should be accursed. 2 Corinthians 6:14-15 reminds us that there is no fellowship between righteousness and lawlessness or between light and darkness. 2 John 1:10-11 cautions against welcoming or endorsing those who bring false teachings, as doing so is participating in their works.

Is allowing this consistent with guarding the truth?

J.

Show him the true gospel and be a good witness. Leave the judgement to God. We are not to judge the world/ outsiders remember ?

The wolves in sheeps clothing are those within the church that’s what makes it so deceiving. Those people whom the church believe who are true preachers, teachers, pastors , theologians etc