God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Complete
Well-known member
Reply #353, which I amended.
Last edited:
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I'm using a language that is as direct and transparent as possible. Here I go:
God does not demand the repented Sikh who stole the 1000 USD to believe in Jesus' deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection as a condition to forgive him and make of him an honest man.
If you have a suggestion for me to write still clearer, please help me.
I want to be clear what level of forgiveness are you talking about? You involved God in your example so automatically a Christian goes to the level of Salvific Forgiveness.
Here are a list of forgiveness definitions just for the audience's reference.
Forgiveness can be understood at various levels, each with distinct characteristics and purposes. These levels can range from interpersonal forgiveness to a more divine, salvific level of forgiveness. Here is an outline of these levels:
1. Interpersonal Forgiveness:
Definition: This is the most common form of forgiveness and involves individuals forgiving others for personal wrongs or harm.
Characteristics: It may involve resentment or anger, but the person who forgives seeks to release these emotions and offers reconciliation. It doesn't necessarily mean forgetting the offense but choosing not to hold it against the person anymore.
Example: A person forgiving a friend who broke their trust.
2. Social Forgiveness:
Definition: This level involves forgiving groups or institutions for wrongs that affect a larger society or community.
Characteristics: It is more collective and can involve restitution, healing, and rebuilding of trust among groups, such as communities or nations.
Example: Forgiveness between countries after a war or a community forgiving a government for systemic injustices.
3. Psychological or Emotional Forgiveness:
Definition: This focuses on emotional healing and letting go of grudges or bitterness for one's own peace of mind, independent of the offender.
Characteristics: It is an internal process where the person who was wronged makes peace with the past, often by reframing the offense or choosing empathy toward the perpetrator. It doesn’t always involve direct interaction with the person who caused harm.
Example: An individual forgiving someone in their heart without necessarily seeking a relationship with that person again.
4. Divine Forgiveness (Spiritual or Theological Forgiveness):
Definition: This is the type of forgiveness attributed to God or a higher power, where wrongdoers are forgiven through divine grace.
Characteristics: This level emphasizes unconditional forgiveness, often predicated on repentance or a sincere desire for redemption. In many religious traditions, divine forgiveness is seen as infinite and is not limited by human standards of justice.
Example: A person who has wronged others seeking forgiveness from God and receiving it through prayer or ritual.
5. Salvific Forgiveness (Salvation and Eternal Forgiveness):
Definition: Salvific forgiveness refers to the ultimate, eternal forgiveness that leads to salvation or reconciliation with God in many religious traditions.
Characteristics: This is seen as the highest form of forgiveness, where God's mercy transcends human understanding. It is often linked to salvation, wherein the forgiven individual is restored to a state of grace and eternal life. This level involves not just forgiveness of sins but a transformation of the individual's soul or spirit.
Example: In Christianity, this is seen in the forgiveness granted through faith in Jesus Christ, where believers are absolved from their sins and promised eternal life through the Cross.
Summary:
- Interpersonal forgiveness heals individual relationships.
- Social forgiveness addresses collective or societal wrongs.
- Psychological forgiveness focuses on personal emotional healing.
- Divine forgiveness is granted by God, often requiring repentance.
- Salvific forgiveness represents the ultimate forgiveness, bringing the individual to eternal peace and spiritual salvation through the Cross.
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Johann
Well-known member
Paul’s Teaching is Consistent with Jesus’ Teachings
While it's true that Paul and Jesus might emphasize different aspects of the same truth, they are not in contradiction. Jesus’ teachings lay the foundation, and Paul, as an apostle, builds upon and clarifies these teachings, particularly in light of the fulfillment of Jesus' mission.
Jesus' Authority: Jesus did not merely teach about forgiveness but established Himself as the ultimate authority on forgiveness, which was linked to His divine identity and sacrificial death.
Why is it you don't understand this @Pancho Frijoles?
John 8:24 (Lexham Bible): “I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus explicitly connects forgiveness with belief in His divine identity-"I am"-which echoes His divinity.
Paul’s Teaching on Jesus’ Deity: Paul, too, affirms the essential truth of Jesus’ divinity and His role in forgiveness.
Romans 10:9 (Lexham Bible): “Because if you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Very clear-why don't you believe my Scriptures re the Cross, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus?!
You want to get saved without the shed blood, cross and resurrection of Jesus?
This passage emphasizes belief in the deity of Christ ("Jesus is Lord") and His resurrection as essential to salvation.
Paul’s Teaching on Forgiveness: Paul does not contradict Jesus but emphasizes the necessity of faith in Jesus for forgiveness and new life.
Ephesians 1:7 (Lexham Bible): “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.”
Through His blood @Pancho Frijoles
This verse affirms that forgiveness is found in Christ’s sacrifice, a truth consistent with Jesus' teachings.
2. Paul Did Not Adapt Jesus’ Teachings, But Expounded Them
It’s important to recognize that Paul did not "adapt" Jesus’ teachings to fit cultural or practical needs but instead articulated the fuller meaning of those teachings in the context of the revelation of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. This was necessary because the full understanding of Jesus’ mission became clearer after His resurrection.
Paul’s Apostolic Commission: Jesus gave Paul a clear commission to preach the gospel, which included both the message of forgiveness and the deeper theological implications of Jesus' work.
Acts 26:17-18 (Lexham Bible): “I will rescue you from your people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”
This is a direct revelation from Jesus to Paul, affirming the need for faith in Jesus for forgiveness and salvation.
The Fullness of the Gospel: Paul explains that the death and resurrection of Jesus are integral to the message of forgiveness. Jesus Himself taught of His impending death and resurrection (Luke 18:31-33), and Paul expounds on this foundational truth.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (Lexham Bible): “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”
This passage highlights the essential components of the gospel that Paul received, which is fully aligned with Jesus’ mission, including His atonement and resurrection.
3. Jesus Did Not “Invent” a New Concept of God, But Revealed the Fullness of God’s Plan
While it's true that Jesus did not introduce a "new" concept of God, He revealed the fullness of God’s plan for salvation, which was not fully understood in the Old Testament. Jesus’ identity as the Son of God and His atoning sacrifice were the climaxes of God's redemptive work, revealing a deeper understanding of God’s mercy and justice.
Jesus’ Claim to Divinity: Jesus revealed His divine identity through His actions and words, making it clear that He was not merely a prophet but God incarnate.
John 14:9 (Lexham Bible): “Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
This declaration of unity with the Father is a clear claim to divinity, showing that Jesus is not just speaking for God but is God.
Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law: Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it. His teachings on forgiveness, mercy, and salvation are not a rejection of God’s character in the Old Testament but the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan.
Matthew 5:17 (Lexham Bible): “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
Jesus completes the story of Israel and the redemptive promises of the Old Testament in His person and work.
4. Conclusion: Paul’s Consistency with Jesus’ Teachings
The idea that Paul “adapted” Jesus’ teachings overlooks the reality that both Jesus and Paul preached the same gospel, with Paul’s writings providing further revelation and application of what Jesus had begun. Jesus’ work was foundational, and Paul’s letters serve to explain and expand upon the full meaning of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.
The teachings of both Paul and Jesus are in perfect harmony, and neither contradicts the other. Rather, they complement one another, with Paul further explaining the implications of Jesus’ work and how it fulfills God’s plan of redemption.
Why are you struggling @Pancho Frijoles?
This from your "writings"*****************************
Sin and Atonement
1QUESTION: IN 1 Corinthians 15:22 it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
2Answer: Know that there are two natures in man: the material and the spiritual. The material nature is inherited from Adam, while the spiritual nature is inherited from the reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The material nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born of the grace of the Holy Spirit. The material nature is the source of every imperfection, and the spiritual nature is the source of all perfection.
3Christ sacrificed Himself so that mankind might be freed from the imperfections of the material nature and endowed with the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which has come to exist through the grace of the divine Reality, is the sum of all perfections and proceeds from the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high-mindedness, justice, love, generosity, kindness to all, and charitable deeds: It is life upon life. This spiritual nature is an effulgence of the splendours of the Sun of Truth.
4Christ is the focal centre of the Holy Spirit; He is born of the Holy Spirit; He has been raised up by the Holy Spirit; He descends from the Holy Spirit—that is, His Reality does not proceed from the lineage of Adam but is born of the Holy Spirit. The meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:22 where it says: “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” is therefore as follows: Adam is commonly referred to as the “father of man”; that is, He is the cause of the material life of mankind and holds the position of material fatherhood. He is a living, though not a life-giving, soul, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit He holds the position of spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a life-giving spirit.
5In this material world, man is subject to the force of instinctual desires, of which sin is the inevitable consequence, for these desires are not bound by the laws of justice and righteousness. The body of man is a prisoner of nature and will act in accordance with whatsoever nature dictates. It follows that sins—such as wrathfulness, envy, contentiousness, greed, avarice, ignorance, rancour, corruption, pride, and cruelty—must exist in the material world. All these bestial attributes exist in the nature of man. A man who has been deprived of spiritual education is even as an animal, like those inhabitants of Africa whose actions, manners, and morals are purely instinctual and who act according to the dictates of nature, to the point of rending and eating one another. Thus it becomes evident that the material world of man is a world of sin, and that on this plane man is indistinguishable from the animal.
6All sin is prompted by the dictates of nature. These dictates of nature, which are among the hallmarks of corporeal existence, are not sins with respect to the animal but are sins with regard to man. The animal is the source of imperfections such as anger, lust, envy, greed, cruelty, and pride. All these blameworthy qualities are found in the nature of the animal, and do not constitute sins with regard to the animal, whereas they are sins with regard to man.
7Adam is the cause of man’s material life, but the reality of Christ, that is, the Word of God, is the cause of his spiritual life. It is a life-giving spirit, meaning that all the imperfections imposed by the material life of man are, through the instruction and guidance of that Essence of detachment, transmuted into human perfections. Therefore, Christ was a life-giving spirit and the cause of the spiritual life of all mankind.
8Adam was the cause of material life, and since the material world of man is the realm of imperfections, and since imperfection is tantamount to death, Paul compared the former to the latter.
9But the majority of the Christians believe that Adam sinned and transgressed by eating from the forbidden tree, that the dire and disastrous consequences of this transgression were inherited for all time by His descendants, and that Adam has thus become the cause of the death of man. This explanation is irrational and clearly mistaken, for it implies that all men, even the Prophets and Messengers of God, through no fault or sin of their own, and for no other reason than their descent from Adam, became guilty sinners and suffered the torments of hell until the day of Christ’s sacrifice. This would be far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what was the sin of Abraham? What was the fault of Isaac and of Joseph? What was the transgression of Moses?
10But Christ, Who was the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings—an outward meaning and a true meaning. The outward meaning is this: Since Christ intended to promote a Cause that entailed the education of the human race, the quickening of the children of men, and the enlightenment of all humanity, and since promoting such a mighty Cause—a Cause that would antagonize all the peoples of the earth and withstand the opposition of every nation and government—was bound to bring about the spilling of His blood and to lead to His crucifixion and death, therefore at the moment He revealed His mission He offered up His life, welcomed the cross as His throne, regarded every wound as a balm and every poison as sweetest honey, and arose to instruct and guide the people. That is, He sacrificed Himself that He might bestow the spirit of life, and perished in body that He might quicken others in spirit.
11However, the second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality manifested itself, in perfect majesty and beauty, in the outward form of the tree.
12The station of Christ was that of absolute perfection. Those divine perfections shone even as the sun upon all believing souls, and the outpourings of that light became manifest and resplendent in their realities. That is why He says: “I am the bread which came down from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die”;91 that is, whosoever partakes of this divine sustenance will gain eternal life. Thus, whoever partook of this grace and acquired a share of these perfections found eternal life, and whoever sought illumination from His ancient grace was delivered from the darkness of error and illumined by the light of guidance.
13The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections were revealed and manifested by virtue of this sacrifice: For the tree, its branches, its leaves, and its blossoms were latent and hidden within the seed, but when the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections were fully manifested in the leaves, blossoms, and fruit.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
I’m emotionally and spiritually exhausted from engaging with him, as he continually reinterprets and redefines clear Scriptures. I’m hesitant to use Bahá'í writings to show the readers just how far off track he really is @Complete.
It feels like we have a "spy" in our midst.
Keep the faith!
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
My dear brother:
Bear in mind you are having a conversation with a person who does not profess Christianism, but the Baha'i Faith.
So, it is all by natural that we interpret some texts from Scripture through a different lens.
Within Christians, you also interpret some texts through a different lens. Catholics, Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses will not interpret the same texts in the same way you do. Within Protestantism you will see strong differences, even in soteriology: for example, between Calvinists and Arminians.
A spy, by definition, does not want to be identified. A spy pretends to be part of the group, when in fact he isn't.
I have declared from the beginning that I am not a Christian. I have made my views as clear as I can since the beginning.
I have revealed my name, location, age, marital status, nationality, academic and religious background, and my photo.
Then, why do you feel you have a "spy" in your midst?
I honestly want to know your feelings about it. You may share your feelings here or write me a personal message.
Johann
Well-known member
Then how can you claimed to be saved in a biblical sense without the redemptive work of Christ ongoing in the lives of believers?
When--
How does Bahá'u'lláh's claim to fulfill Christianity align with Jesus’ exclusive statements about His own role?
John 14:6 (Lexham Bible): “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’”
If Jesus is the only way to the Father, how can Bahá'u'lláh claim to bring new revelation that supersedes Jesus’ exclusive role?
2. Why did Jesus say His work on the cross was “finished” if further revelation was needed?
John 19:30 (Lexham Bible): “When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
If Jesus declared that His redemptive work was complete, why would Bahá'u'lláh's teachings claim to add to or complete it?
3. If Bahá'u'lláh is a prophet, why does the Bible warn against adding to God’s Word?
Revelation 22:18-19 (Lexham Bible): “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.”
How do Bahá'í teachings reconcile their additional writings with this clear biblical warning?
4. Why does the Bahá'í faith reject the deity of Christ if He explicitly claims unity with the Father?
John 10:30 (Lexham Bible): “The Father and I are one.”
If Jesus claimed unity with the Father, how can Bahá'í teachings reduce Him to the status of a mere prophet?
5. Why is there no need for blood atonement in Bahá'í teachings, despite its central role in Scripture?
Hebrews 9:22 (Lexham Bible): “And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
If forgiveness of sins requires the shedding of blood, as clearly taught throughout the Bible, how does the Bahá'í faith address sin without a sufficient sacrifice?
6. How does progressive revelation account for the contradictions between Bahá'í teachings and biblical doctrine?
Bahá'ís claim that their faith represents a continuation of God’s revelation, yet core doctrines such as the nature of God, sin, and salvation are fundamentally different.
How can God contradict Himself if He is unchanging? (Malachi 3:6: “For I, Yahweh, have not changed.”)
7. Why do the Bahá'í writings reinterpret clear biblical prophecies?
For example, many Bahá'í interpretations of biblical prophecy spiritualize or redefine terms such as "Christ’s return" or "the Kingdom of God."
How can Bahá'í teachings reinterpret biblical prophecies when Scripture warns against private interpretation?
2 Peter 1:20-21 (Lexham Bible): “No prophecy of scripture comes about from one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
8. What proof exists that Bahá'u'lláh fulfilled prophecy?
Bahá'í members often claim Bahá'u'lláh fulfilled biblical prophecies about Christ’s return. However, these prophecies explicitly describe a visible, physical return of Jesus Christ.
Acts 1:11 (Lexham Bible): “This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way as you saw him going into heaven.”
How does Bahá'u'lláh fulfill this prophecy if he did not visibly descend from heaven as Jesus ascended?
9. If Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings are from God, why do they contradict earlier revelations?
Bahá'í teachings about universalism and the equality of all religions contradict the Bible’s exclusive claims about salvation through Christ.
Isaiah 43:11 (Lexham Bible): “I myself am Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me.”
How can Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings align with God’s Word if they contradict the exclusivity of Yahweh as the Savior?
10. How can sin be forgiven without repentance and faith in Christ’s sacrifice?
Acts 4:12 (Lexham Bible): “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.”
If salvation is only through Christ, how does the Bahá'í faith account for forgiveness apart from Him?
J.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Are those categories relevant for our salvation?
I don't think so. First, let's compare your definitions of "interpersonal forgiveness" vs "divine forgiveness"
When Jesus speaks about the forgiveness given by God, he compares it with the forgiveness we give to our neighbors. If they were two different categories, why would Jesus be comparing apples with pears? Please read these examples:
- "Forgive our debts, as we forgive our debtors",
- "For if you forgive men for their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men for their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins."
- "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."
What about Paul? He does the same comparing the forgiveness given through Christ with the forgiveness we give one another
Bear with one another and forgive one another. If anyone has a quarrel against anyone, even as Christ forgave you, so you must do. (Colossians 3:13)
Certainly, there should be a difference between the forgiveness you give to me, and the forgiveness that Gods gives to me... but that's a difference in magnitude!
If you could forgive me if I asked you... imagine how much God can forgive me if I ask Him!Look how Jesus compares our response to God's response:
What man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a snake? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:9-11)
Therefore, the mercy from Pancho Frijoles towards a Sikh who stole 1000 USD from him cannot be LESS than the mercy of God.
Pancho could never say: "I managed to forgive him, but certainly God will not !"
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Without? No!
I believe in the redemptive work of Christ. I praise Christ for that.
I just have a theological understanding of that redemptive work which is different than yours.
I confess Christ came to the world to save mean and that He gave up his life for us. I take his sacrifice in the cross as precious... something I could never fathom, only thank.
I just have a different theological understanding about those statements.
I have crucified with Christ the old man.
In this I think we have a similar theological understanding.
The topic of the thread, tough, is not to analyze which theological understandings are correct... but whether God requires people to have in your brain the correct theological understandings as a condition to extend his forgiveness and to change their lives.
In fact, I believe that probably 99% of the people who have been granted forgiveness and experienced a transformation in their lives, including within Christian churches, wouldn't be able to hold a discussion in this Forum (and wouldn't be interested in doing so) about soteriology.
Johann
Well-known member
Not even one mention of the word "saved" or "salvation". You attempted to make a case for salvation and none of the verses you quoted even mentions that word.Are those categories relevant for our salvation?
I don't think so. Look: When Jesus speaks about the forgiveness given by God, he compares it with the forgiveness we give to our neighbors. If they were two different categories, why would Jesus be comparing apples with pears?
He also wouldn't use the forgiveness that the king gives to his servant as an example of "The Kingdom of God", or the forgiveness that father to the prodigal son, as example of God's forgiveness.
- "Forgive our debts, as we forgive our debtors",
- "For if you forgive men for their sins, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men for their sins, neither will your Father forgive your sins."
- "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."
What about Paul? He does the same comparing the forgiveness given through Christ with the forgiveness we give one another
Bear with one another and forgive one another. If anyone has a quarrel against anyone, even as Christ forgave you, so you must do. (Colossians 3:13)
Certainly, there should be a difference between the forgiveness you give to me, and the forgiveness that Gods gives to me... but that's a difference in magnitude!
Look how Jesus compares our response to God's response:
What man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a snake? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! (Matthew 7:9-11)
You are talking about Foregiveness Level #4. We're talking about Foregiveness Level #5. We are talking past each other.
- Interpersonal forgiveness heals individual relationships.
- Social forgiveness addresses collective or societal wrongs.
- Psychological forgiveness focuses on personal emotional healing.
- Divine forgiveness is granted by God, often requiring repentance.
- Salvific forgiveness represents the ultimate forgiveness, bringing the individual to eternal peace and spiritual salvation through the Cross.
civic
Well-known member
yes one must be careful not to add or subtract from Gods word.
when we look at the OT and the role of the priest and forgiveness of sin with the sacrifice of the animal on their behalf we know most of them perished and were not saved.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I took a quick look at your edited post.
You are under the impression that a person cannot claimed to be saved if that person is wrong about certain doctrines.
You must change that impression. Otherwise, God would put as a condition to answer correctly a quiz of 857 questions.
Questions like: "Is the Book of Mormon another Testament of Jesus Christ?"
If the person answers "No", she is directed to the next question. If she answers "Yes", then is sent to hell to be tortured forever and ever.
The next question is: "Is it OK to pray to Virgin Mary?"
If the person answers "No", she is directed to the next question. If she answers "Yes", she's sent to hell.
And so on and so forth.
So, let me give a concrete example based on the topic of the thread.
- Let's assume Jesus is God and I am wrong. I would still claim to be saved.
- Let's assume Jesus did pay my debt demanded by God by shedding blood, and I am wrong. I would still claim to be saved.
- Let's assume Jesus did resurrect with a physical human body and I am wrong. I would still claim to be saved.
Because I trust God's has forgiven me and changed me into a new person. I trust He keeps forgiving me and changing me every day.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The title of the thread is "God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection".
So that's have been the focus of my thread.
As I have said to @civic,
we can't think in God rewarding with heaven a person that He has not forgiven, or punishing with hell a person that He has forgiven.
Johann
Well-known member
Let's try again-
How does Bahá'u'lláh's claim to fulfill Christianity align with Jesus’ exclusive statements about His own role?
John 14:6 (Lexham Bible): “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’”
If Jesus is the only way to the Father, how can Bahá'u'lláh claim to bring new revelation that supersedes Jesus’ exclusive role?
2. Why did Jesus say His work on the cross was “finished” if further revelation was needed?
John 19:30 (Lexham Bible): “When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
If Jesus declared that His redemptive work was complete, why would Bahá'u'lláh's teachings claim to add to or complete it?
3. If Bahá'u'lláh is a prophet, why does the Bible warn against adding to God’s Word?
Revelation 22:18-19 (Lexham Bible): “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.”
How do Bahá'í teachings reconcile their additional writings with this clear biblical warning?
4. Why does the Bahá'í faith reject the deity of Christ if He explicitly claims unity with the Father?
John 10:30 (Lexham Bible): “The Father and I are one.”
If Jesus claimed unity with the Father, how can Bahá'í teachings reduce Him to the status of a mere prophet?
5. Why is there no need for blood atonement in Bahá'í teachings, despite its central role in Scripture?
Hebrews 9:22 (Lexham Bible): “And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
If forgiveness of sins requires the shedding of blood, as clearly taught throughout the Bible, how does the Bahá'í faith address sin without a sufficient sacrifice?
6. How does progressive revelation account for the contradictions between Bahá'í teachings and biblical doctrine?
Bahá'ís claim that their faith represents a continuation of God’s revelation, yet core doctrines such as the nature of God, sin, and salvation are fundamentally different.
How can God contradict Himself if He is unchanging? (Malachi 3:6: “For I, Yahweh, have not changed.”)
7. Why do the Bahá'í writings reinterpret clear biblical prophecies?
For example, many Bahá'í interpretations of biblical prophecy spiritualize or redefine terms such as "Christ’s return" or "the Kingdom of God."
How can Bahá'í teachings reinterpret biblical prophecies when Scripture warns against private interpretation?
2 Peter 1:20-21 (Lexham Bible): “No prophecy of scripture comes about from one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
8. What proof exists that Bahá'u'lláh fulfilled prophecy?
Bahá'í members often claim Bahá'u'lláh fulfilled biblical prophecies about Christ’s return. However, these prophecies explicitly describe a visible, physical return of Jesus Christ.
Acts 1:11 (Lexham Bible): “This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will come back in the same way as you saw him going into heaven.”
How does Bahá'u'lláh fulfill this prophecy if he did not visibly descend from heaven as Jesus ascended?
9. If Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings are from God, why do they contradict earlier revelations?
Bahá'í teachings about universalism and the equality of all religions contradict the Bible’s exclusive claims about salvation through Christ.
Isaiah 43:11 (Lexham Bible): “I myself am Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me.”
How can Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings align with God’s Word if they contradict the exclusivity of Yahweh as the Savior?
10. How can sin be forgiven without repentance and faith in Christ’s sacrifice?
Acts 4:12 (Lexham Bible): “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.”
If salvation is only through Christ, how does the Bahá'í faith account for forgiveness apart from Him?
Hebrews 1:1-2 (Lexham Bible)
"Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world."
This passage clearly states that while God communicated in various ways in the past, His ultimate and final word comes through Jesus Christ. No further revelation is necessary beyond what God has revealed through His Son.
2. John 14:6-9 (Lexham Bible)
“Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.’”
Jesus identifies Himself as the complete revelation of the Father. He is the way to God, not just a prophet or messenger. There is no need for additional mediators or revelations.
3. John 1:14, 18 (Lexham Bible)
"And the Word became flesh and took up residence [tabernacle] among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth... No one has seen God at any time; the one and only God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—this one has made him known."
Jesus, the incarnate Word, has fully revealed the Father. This makes any additional claim of revelation unnecessary.
4. Colossians 2:9-10 (Lexham Bible)
"Because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you are filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority."
Christ embodies the fullness of God, leaving no need for further revelations. Believers are complete in Him.
5. 2 Peter 1:3 (Lexham Bible)
"Because his divine power has bestowed on us all things that are necessary for life and godliness, through the knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence."
Everything we need for life and godliness has already been provided through the knowledge of Christ, leaving no gap for further revelation.
6. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (Lexham Bible)
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time."
Jesus is the sole mediator between God and humanity, rendering additional intermediaries or revelations redundant.
7. Jude 1:3 (Lexham Bible)
"Dear friends, although I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation, I was compelled to write to encourage you to contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints once and for all."
The faith has been delivered "once for all," implying no need for further revelations or additions to what has been given.
8. John 5:39-40 (Lexham Bible)
"You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life."
Jesus explains that the Scriptures point to Him as the ultimate revelation. He fulfills the promises of God, leaving no room for further prophets or revelations.
9. Galatians 1:8-9 (Lexham Bible)
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!"
This strong warning guards against any additional "gospel" or revelation that contradicts or adds to the message of Christ.
10. Revelation 22:18-19 (Lexham Bible)
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book."
This final warning in Scripture affirms the completeness of God’s revelation and condemns any attempt to add or alter His Word.
J.
What do you mean by "transform"? There's endless levels of transformations. You need to be clear on your usage of those terms
Of course one is forgiven if one is saved. That's not what he was arguing against. What's happening is that we are arguing for different levels of forgiveness and getting nowhere.
This is a perfect example of not defining our terms properly to begin with. Perfect example is the word "transform". There are a gazillion ways one can be transformed. Which one are you arguing for?
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Johann
Well-known member
Several websites offer critiques of Bahá'í beliefs and provide tools for those wishing to understand the theological differences between Bahá'í teachings and Christianity:
Updated American Standard Version (UASV) highlights significant theological differences, such as the Bahá'í view of Bahá’u’lláh as a "manifestation of God," which contradicts Christian teachings about Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior. The site discusses doctrines like the Trinity and redemption, contrasting them with Bahá'í perspectives
UPDATED AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
.
Christian Research Institute examines the Bahá'í faith critically, focusing on issues such as the claim of progressive revelation and its alleged contradiction of final revelation in Christ as taught in Hebrews 1:1-2. This site provides a strong biblical defense against Bahá'í interpretations
WIKIPEDIA
.
Wikipedia's Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith provides a neutral overview of objections raised by various religious and secular perspectives, including issues of exclusivity, claims of divine revelation, and social doctrines
WIKIPEDIA
J.
Updated American Standard Version (UASV) highlights significant theological differences, such as the Bahá'í view of Bahá’u’lláh as a "manifestation of God," which contradicts Christian teachings about Jesus as the unique Son of God and Savior. The site discusses doctrines like the Trinity and redemption, contrasting them with Bahá'í perspectives
UPDATED AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
.
Christian Research Institute examines the Bahá'í faith critically, focusing on issues such as the claim of progressive revelation and its alleged contradiction of final revelation in Christ as taught in Hebrews 1:1-2. This site provides a strong biblical defense against Bahá'í interpretations
WIKIPEDIA
.
Wikipedia's Criticism of the Bahá'í Faith provides a neutral overview of objections raised by various religious and secular perspectives, including issues of exclusivity, claims of divine revelation, and social doctrines
WIKIPEDIA
J.
Johann
Well-known member
A Book of such indescribable holiness is itself a symbol of the incomparable greatness of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh and is, indeed, a potent reminder of the high respect which is due to all that has flowed from His prodigious, truth-bearing pen. May the friends of God ever be mindful of its exalted rank among the sacred texts of the Faith; treasure it as the bread of life; regard possession of it as a sacred honor, as a priceless legacy from the Pen of the Most High, as a source of God’s greatest bounty to His creatures; place their whole trust in its provisions; recite its verses; study its contents; adhere to its exhortations; and thus transform their lives in accordance with the divine standard.
All you need to do is peruse this site.
This is not the biblical rebirth as it stands written in Scripture.
J.
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