God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[mikesw]

It is an allegory, not a historical fact.
Do you think it was a historical fact? If you do, say it and be prepared to support it with reason.

We can start with the fact that there is no allegorical sense that can be given to the Genesis 1-2 account. We can add to that there is no reasoning ability to discount how God created the heavens and earth. There is no reason to discount the scriptures ... and if someone applies "reason" against it, that person has nothing to ground that reason upon.
If someone has an allegorical sense to Genesis 1-2 that is convincing to the majority of Christians, then that person should share it.

Forgive me for the following editorial corrections

Allah is my god and the author of my death and the daily death of million of brain cells in my xxxx.
Praised be to Allah in my youth and old age, in my cradle and deathbed !
When I take a shower, sometimes I take a good look at my body and thank my earth-bound god for it. It is not mine, and I will have give it back to it.

Pancho Frijoles says Allah is his god and the author of his death and the daily death of million of his cells and thus is not following the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. For Christians, God is author of our eternal life through Christ Jesus.

So he will lose everything cause all he can do is return his body to the dust. I've not checked if he hoping for something beyond just being dust.

 

[synergy]

Dust (soil) is great. It is essential for life.
I’m talking about the metaphorical use of dust in the Bible.

I'm talking about how these passages refer to dust and ground as physical. Hence we are talking physical death here.

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Since the story of the Fall is an allegory, and not a historical fact, it is reasonable to think that “dust” refers to the state of defrdation of man resulting from its separation from God (spiritual death).

Paul called all of Scripture "God Breathed". You would have to degrade all of scripture to maintain your allegiance to Allah.

Conclusion: Salvific Forgiveness includes Eternal Life. That's only possible through the Cross. That's where our sins are forgiven, being nailed to the Cross. Salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God. Allah belittles the Cross and is therefore an Imposter.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul called all of Scripture "God Breathed". Need I say anything more?

Yes, I would appreciate if you share with us what you understand by “God breathed”.
Christian theologians have different views about it.

Allah, the God of Death.
The Greeks had a name for the God of Death.
He was called Thantos.

Ethernal Life is what the God of the Bible offers us. You don't like that offer?

I am actually enjoying eternal life already.

I do. I have teenage children. I don't have to explain myself further. now do I?

Great answer.
So, there you have your cross. God bless you, today and every day. Good night!

 

[synergy]

Yes, I would appreciate if you share with us what you understand by “God breathed”.
Christian theologians have different views about it.

Paul's reference to all Scripture as "God-breathed" comes from 2 Timothy 3:16, where he writes, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness." The term "God-breathed" (Greek: theopneustos) conveys that Scripture is not merely a human creation like the Quran but is inspired by God Himself. Paul emphasizes that the writings of Scripture are divinely authoritative, given by God's direct influence, and is all vital for teaching believers about God's will, righteousness, and truth. For anyone to dismiss any part of Scripture as mere "myths" would be to deny the divine origin and purpose of these writings, undermining God's authority and truth.

From a Christian perspective, the belief that Scripture is "God-breathed" means that it holds an unparalleled status compared to other writings, including myths or human-made stories. Calling any part of Scripture "myths" would be an affront to the truth, power, and authority of God, who is believed to have inspired and preserved His Word.

Conclusion: Salvific Forgiveness includes Eternal Life. That's only possible through the Cross. That's where our sins are forgiven, being nailed to the Cross. Salvific forgiveness for man can only come from the true God which cannot be Allah because it's Allah who belittles the Cross and is therefore an Imposter.

 

[Johann]

We can start with the fact that there is no allegorical sense that can be given to the Genesis 1-2 account. We can add to that there is no reasoning ability to discount how God created the heavens and earth. There is no reason to discount the scriptures ... and if someone applies "reason" against it, that person has nothing to ground that reason upon.
If someone has an allegorical sense to Genesis 1-2 that is convincing to the majority of Christians, then that person should share it.

Forgive me for the following editorial corrections

Pancho Frijoles says Allah is his god and the author of his death and the daily death of million of his cells and thus is not following the true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. For Christians, God is author of our eternal life through Christ Jesus.

So he will lose everything cause all he can do is return his body to the dust. I've not checked if he hoping for something beyond just being dust.

Note, he is using reason and science--


Bahá'í Interpretation of Scriptures

Scriptural Harmony with Science
The Bahá'í Faith teaches that religion and science are complementary, not contradictory. Bahá’u’lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, emphasized the need for religion to align with reason and empirical understanding. Abdu’l-Bahá, his son and authorized interpreter, elaborated on this, stating that any religious claim that contradicts science is a superstition or misinterpretation.

Progressive Revelation
The Bahá'í Faith believes in progressive revelation, which holds that religious truth is revealed progressively by God through various Messengers, each suited for the needs of their time. This means Scripture is often viewed through a symbolic and allegorical lens, with interpretations adapting to current scientific and rational insights. For example, creation stories are interpreted metaphorically rather than literally.

Rationality in Interpretation
Interpretation in the Bahá'í Faith places a strong emphasis on rationality. Spiritual truths are considered eternal, but their expression in religious law may evolve over time. Human reason is a key tool for understanding divine teachings, and individuals are encouraged to investigate truth independently.

Islamic Interpretation of Scriptures
Reason and Revelation
Classical Islamic theology also upholds the compatibility of reason (‘aql) and revelation (wahy), particularly in traditions like Mu'tazilism. Many Islamic scholars argue that the Qur'an and science cannot contradict because both originate from God. However, interpretations vary widely across Islamic schools of thought, with some favoring more literal readings and others emphasizing metaphorical or allegorical understandings.

Science and Miracles
Islam views the Qur'an as a miraculous text, often emphasizing its alignment with scientific facts as evidence of divine origin. However, there is also an acknowledgment of the limits of human understanding in fully grasping divine wisdom. While some modern Muslim interpretations emphasize a "scientific miracle" approach to the Qur'an, others caution against overextending such claims.

Static Revelation
Unlike the Bahá'í concept of progressive revelation, Islam views the Qur'an as the final and unchanging word of God. While interpretations (tafsir) adapt to contexts, the core text is not considered to evolve. This contrasts with the Bahá'í openness to ongoing, complementary revelations.

Key Similarities
Use of Reason: Both faiths stress the importance of reason and intellectual inquiry in understanding their Scriptures.
Alignment with Science: Both emphasize the compatibility of faith with science, rejecting notions that the two must conflict.
Metaphorical Interpretation: Both allow for symbolic or allegorical interpretations of sacred texts, particularly when literal readings seem incompatible with established truths.

Key Differences
Revelation's Finality: Islam views Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets, meaning no new divine revelation will occur, while the Bahá'í Faith believes revelation is ongoing and continuous.

Authority of Interpretation: In Islam, the Qur'an and hadith are interpreted through established schools of jurisprudence and scholarship, while the Bahá'í Faith centralizes interpretive authority in its institutions (like the Universal House of Justice) and foundational writings.

Evolution of Teachings: The Bahá'í Faith accepts that religious laws and social teachings evolve to suit the needs of humanity over time, a concept not present in traditional Islam.

In summary, while both faiths integrate reason and science into their interpretive frameworks, the Bahá'í Faith emphasizes progressive revelation and adaptability to modern understanding, whereas Islam tends to emphasize the eternal and unchanging nature of its Scripture.
Bahá'í Faith on Science and Religion

Bahá’u’lláh’s writings, particularly in Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude), emphasize the symbolic interpretation of religious texts and the harmony of science and religion.


Abdu’l-Bahá, in Some Answered Questions, elaborates on reconciling religious truths with reason and scientific discovery, arguing that religious beliefs must be logical and free from superstition.
Bahá'í View of Progressive Revelation

The concept of progressive revelation is foundational in Bahá'í theology, detailed in texts like Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh by Shoghi Effendi. These explain how divine Messengers address humanity's evolving needs over time.
Islamic View of Science and Reason

Classical Islamic scholars like Al-Ghazali and Ibn Rushd (Averroes) debated the roles of reason and revelation. Works like Averroes' The Incoherence of the Incoherence provide insight into how Islamic philosophy approaches reason and scripture.
The Qur'an itself contains verses encouraging inquiry and reflection (e.g., Qur'an 2:164, 3:191, 10:101).
The concept of "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an has been popularized in contemporary Islamic apologetics, particularly through scholars like Maurice Bucaille (The Bible, the Qur'an, and Science).
Differences in Revelation

The Islamic view of Muhammad as the Seal of the Prophets is based on Qur'an 33:40, which asserts the finality of his prophethood.
Bahá'í perspectives on the continuation of revelation directly contrast this and are articulated in The Promised Day is Come by Shoghi Effendi.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

www.bahai.org

I keep sharing links and passages to [hopefully] equip believers to respond thoughtfully to questions about the hope they hold, as encouraged in 1 Peter 3:15:

"But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, but with gentleness and respect" (Lexham Bible).

J.

 

[Johann]

First, when you refer to the Core Block, remember that you are talking about inspired Scriptures, including the teachings from Jesus' lips.
Second, those passages DO address HOW a person is forgiven.
Your problem is that you do not accept the method that those 21 passages from Scriptures present.

The essential question of how a person is forgiven is answered like this:

STEP 1: The sinner repents
STEP 2: God forgives.

This is the method. This is the how. This has always been the how. Jesus taught it. You believe in Jesus: so believe what He teaches.

You, as a Bahá’í, are referencing my Scriptures but interpreting them through the lens of Bahá’u’lláh’s teachings. Why should I take your perspective on how a person is to be born again, especially when you haven't provided a direct answer to the question?

Here are writings and gleanings from your faith that, while touching on themes of spiritual transformation, do not directly address the biblical imperative of how a person must be born again.

Instead, they seem to sidestep the clear and specific instructions found in Scripture on this critical matter.


From Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings

Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude):

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceedeth their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory." (Part 1)

This passage speaks to the idea of spiritual enlightenment through divine reflection and transformation.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh:

"O Son of Being! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant." (Gleanings, Section 4)
This emphasizes the transformation of the heart as central to spiritual rebirth.

"This most great, this fathomless and surging Ocean is near, astonishingly near unto you. Behold it streaming forth, at one time through the daysprings of divine Revelation, at another through the souls of those who have truly recognized Him Who is the eternal Truth." (Gleanings, Section 19)
This passage reflects the immediacy of divine presence, which awakens the soul.

From Abdu’l-Bahá’s Writings
Some Answered Questions:
"Man is, in reality, a spiritual being, and only when he lives in the spirit is he truly happy." (Chapter 57)
This indicates the necessity of living in alignment with spiritual truths to achieve a transformative, reborn state.

"When the soul is illumined by the Spirit, it manifests the attributes of God, and its action produces harmony, happiness, and beauty." (Chapter 64)
Here, the soul's illumination by the Spirit parallels the Christian idea of being "born again" in the Spirit.

From Shoghi Effendi’s Writings
The Advent of Divine Justice:
"The virtues and powers which the Almighty has breathed into the world through His Prophets will be manifested anew in the transformation of character and the refinement of souls." (p. 19)

The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh:
"A new life is, in this age, stirring within all the peoples of the earth; and yet none hath discovered its cause or perceived its motive." (p. 168)
This "new life" is described as a spiritual awakening spreading globally, resonating with the concept of rebirth.


From Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings
Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
In this foundational text, Bahá’u’lláh speaks of the importance of spiritual perception and detachment:

“They who are the beloved of God, in whatever place they gather and whomsoever they may meet, must evince, in their attitude towards God, such humility and submissiveness that every atom of the dust beneath their feet may attest the depth of their devotion.” (Part 2)
This humility and submission reflect the qualities of one who has undergone a transformative spiritual rebirth.
Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh

“The purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves.” (Gleanings, Section 132)
This passage indicates that spiritual awakening and transformation allow individuals to uncover their true nature, a concept akin to being "born again."

“O Son of Spirit! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee.” (Gleanings, Section 2)
This reflects a call to align with divine attributes, marking a renewal of one's spiritual state.

From the Writings of Abdu’l-Bahá
Some Answered Questions
Abdu’l-Bahá provides interpretations of spiritual concepts, including rebirth in the spiritual sense:

“The reality of man is his thought, not his material body. The thoughts of man are an indication of his spiritual condition, and if his thoughts are directed toward heavenly subjects, he becomes heavenly; if toward earthly things, he becomes earthly.” (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 64)
This emphasizes that transformation of thought is central to spiritual rebirth.

“When the soul becomes illuminated, it knows that which it did not know before, and it sees that which it did not see before.” (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 58)
This description of spiritual enlightenment mirrors the idea of being "born again" into a new state of understanding.

Tablets of Abdu’l-Bahá

“Man must strive with all his heart and soul until he acquireth inner and outer perfections. Thereby he will advance continually until he attaineth the station of the righteous ones and shall possess the attributes of the heavenly angels.” (Tablet to August Forel)
This indicates a progression in spiritual renewal and refinement.

From Shoghi Effendi’s Writings
The Advent of Divine Justice
Shoghi Effendi discusses the need for moral and spiritual renewal:

“The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct.” (p. 19)
This aligns with the idea that true spiritual transformation (or rebirth) manifests in actions and character.
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

“A new life is, in this age, stirring within all the peoples of the earth; and yet none hath discovered its cause or perceived its motive.” (p. 168)
This "new life" can be interpreted as a global spiritual awakening, which parallels the individual concept of rebirth.

Wonderful words-nothing on the Imperative on HOW a sinner is born again.

J.

 

[Johann]

First, when you refer to the Core Block, remember that you are talking about inspired Scriptures, including the teachings from Jesus' lips.
Second, those passages DO address HOW a person is forgiven.
Your problem is that you do not accept the method that those 21 passages from Scriptures present.

The essential question of how a person is forgiven is answered like this:

STEP 1: The sinner repents
STEP 2: God forgives.

This is the method. This is the how. This has always been the how. Jesus taught it. You believe in Jesus: so believe what He teaches.

Your Core Block stopped at Luke--why? Why don't you believe the epistles?

Jesus’ Teaching on Being Born Again
In John 3:3-7, Jesus directly addresses how a person is born again:

John 3:3 (Lexham Bible):
“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.’”

John 3:5:
“Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.’”
Here, Jesus defines being born again as a spiritual rebirth, distinct from physical birth, involving both water and Spirit. This rebirth is essential for entering the kingdom of God and is brought about by the transformative work of the Holy Spirit.

Paul’s Teachings on Spiritual Regeneration
Paul builds upon Jesus’ teaching by explaining the mechanics and effects of spiritual rebirth:

Spiritual Death and New Life

2 Corinthians 5:17:
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”
Paul emphasizes that being in Christ results in a complete transformation-a spiritual rebirth that makes a person new.
Regeneration by the Holy Spirit

Titus 3:5:
“He saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.”

This aligns with Jesus’ teaching on being born of the Spirit, showing that salvation and spiritual rebirth come through the Spirit’s renewing work.

Faith as the Entry Point

Romans 10:9-10:
“Because if you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Paul connects faith in Jesus Christ to the moment of salvation, marking the beginning of the believer’s new life in the Spirit.

Key Difference in Focus
Jesus provides the framework and imperative for being born again, focusing on the necessity of the Spirit’s work in transforming an individual.

Paul elaborates on the experience of being born again-what it looks like, how it changes a person, and its implications for living a new life in Christ.
Both emphasize the centrality of the Spirit’s work and faith in Jesus Christ as essential components of being born again.
BORN AGAIN

This root (gennaō) is used in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3:3,7,8, also in 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1,4,18, and in 1 Pet. 1:23 (i.e., anagennaō). It speaks of a decisive act of a new life, a new orientation, a new worldview, a new relationship with God through faith in Christ.

The NT also uses other imagery to describe our salvation:

"quickened" (cf. Col. 2:13; Eph. 2:4-5)
"new creation" (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15)
"partaker of Divine Nature," (cf. 2 Pet. 1:4)
Paul is fond of the familial imagery "adoption" (cf. Rom. 8:23; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5)
John and Peter are fond of the familial imagery "new birth." This imagery of being "born again" or "born from above" is a biblical emphasis on the need for a totally new start (cf. Ezek. 36:26-27), a totally new family (cf. John 1:12-13; Rom. 5:12-21). Christianity is not a reformation or a new morality; it is a new relationship with God. This new relationship is made possible because of

the Father's mercy and grace (cf. Exod. 34:6; Neh. 9:17)
the Son's sacrificial death (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) and resurrection from the dead (cf. 1 Corinthians 15)
the work of the Spirit (cf. John 3:6; 6:44,65; 1 Pet. 1:2)

This divine will and action provide believers with new life, a living hope, and a guaranteed inheritance, as described in Scripture.



Like many other religions, they tend to borrow from and reinterpret our Scriptures to fit their own narratives. The Qur’an does this, and Bahá’u’lláh’s writings do the same, incorporating and reshaping biblical truths into their teachings. See here:
Say: O people! The Tree of Life hath verily been planted in the heart of the heavenly paradise and bestoweth life in every direction. How can ye fail to perceive and recognize it? It will in truth aid thee to grasp all that this well-assured Soul hath disclosed unto thee of the essence of the divine mysteries. The Dove of holiness warbleth in the heaven of immortality and admonisheth thee to array thyself with a new vesture, wrought of steel to shield thee from the shafts of doubt concealed in the allusions of men, saying: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again.”49

72Wing then thy flight unto this divine Tree and partake of its fruits. Gather up that which hath fallen therefrom and guard it faithfully. Meditate then upon the utterance of one of the Prophets as He intimated to the souls of men, through veiled allusions and hidden symbols, the glad-tidings of the One Who was to come after Him, that thou mayest know of a certainty that their words are inscrutable to all save those who are endued with an understanding heart. He saith: “His eyes were as a flame of fire”, and “brass-like were His feet”, and “out of His mouth goeth a two-edged sword”.50

Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library

www.bahai.org

All must turn to Him. Who is the "him?"

Whatsoever He says is correct, for, verily, He knoweth the texts of My Book. Other than He, no one doth know My Book.” The purpose of this statement is that there should never be discord and divergence among the Bahá’ís but that they should always be unified and agreed. In His prayers Bahá’u’lláh also said, “O God! Whosoever violates My Covenant, O God, humiliate him. Verily, whosoever violates My Covenant, O God, erase and efface him.”

In all His Tablets, among which is the Tablet of the Branch, He has mentioned and explained the attributes and qualities of the Personage to Whom He referred in the Book of His Covenant. He has fully expounded the function and potency of that Personage, so that no one shall say, “I understand this from the writings of Bahá’u’lláh,” for He has appointed the Center, or Expounder, of the Book.

He said, “Verily, He is the appointed one; other than He, there is none,” intending that no sects or prejudices should be formed, and preventing every man here and there with a new thought from creating dissension and variance. It is as though a king should appoint a governor-general. Whosoever obeys him, obeys the king. Whosoever violates and disobeys him, violates the king.

Therefore, whosoever obeys the Center of the Covenant appointed by Bahá’u’lláh has obeyed Bahá’u’lláh, and whosoever disobeys Him has disobeyed Bahá’u’lláh.

It has nothing to do with Him (‘Abdu’l‑Bahá) at all—precisely as the governor-general appointed by the king—whosoever obeys the governor-general obeys the king; whosoever disobeys the governor-general disobeys the king.

Therefore, you must read the Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh. You must read the Tablet of the Branch and regard that which He has so clearly stated.

Beware! Beware! lest anyone should speak from the authority of his own thoughts or create a new thing out of himself. Beware! Beware! According to the explicit Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh you should care nothing at all for such a person. Bahá’u’lláh shuns such souls. I have expounded these things for you, for the conservation and protection of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, in order that you may be informed, lest any souls shall deceive you and lest any souls shall cause suspicion among you. You must love all people, and yet if any souls put you in doubt, you must know that Bahá’u’lláh is severed from them. Whosoever works for unity and fellowship is a servant of Bahá’u’lláh, and Bahá’u’lláh is his assistant and helper. I ask God that He may cause you to be the very means of agreement and unity, that He may make you radiant, merciful, heavenly children of the divine Kingdom; that you may advance day by day; that you may become as bright as these lamps, bestowing light upon all humanity. Salutations and farewell!

Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library

www.bahai.org

You have got to be kidding me!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY8...0aCB0aGUgYmFoYWppIGZhaXRoISBKb2huIGxlbm5veA==

J.

 

[civic]

First, when you refer to the Core Block, remember that you are talking about inspired Scriptures, including the teachings from Jesus' lips.
Second, those passages DO address HOW a person is forgiven.
Your problem is that you do not accept the method that those 21 passages from Scriptures present.

The essential question of how a person is forgiven is answered like this:

STEP 1: The sinner repents
STEP 2: God forgives.

This is the method. This is the how. This has always been the how. Jesus taught it. You believe in Jesus: so believe what He teaches.

Forgiven does not equal saved. You are equivocating, conflating them.

 

[Johann]

Forgiven does not equal saved. You are equivocating, conflating them.

The issue, as I see it, is that we need to keep engaging with him, and this is positive. He’s asking valid questions and may even know our Bible better than we do.

"Equivocating and conflating" won’t end an honest debate, and as believers, we should read his collective writings, use them, and measure them against our Scriptures.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Forgiven does not equal saved. You are equivocating, conflating them.

Good morning, civic

We can't think in God rewarding with eternal life a person who He has not forgiven, or punishing with hell a person who He has forgiven. Can we?
Remember the parable:
If we found the servant of the king in jail, that means the king didn't forgive him.
If we found that servant free on the street, that means the king forgave him.

The outcome of forgiveness is being born into a new life, and a person who lives a new life seeks for forgiveness every time she sins.
That's why Scripture says:

Blessed is he
whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man
against whom the Lord does not count iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
(Psalm 32:1,2 later quoted by Paul in Romans 4:6-8)

If those whose transgressions are forgiven were not saved, how could they be called "Blessed"?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The issue, as I see it, is that we need to keep engaging with him, and this is positive. He’s asking valid questions and may even know our Bible better than we do.

I appreciate your willingness to keep the conversation, Johann. I also think it is positive.
You are asking valid questions, I agree.
I am also asking valid questions.

I appreciate when you tell me I have not addressed a question. If I have forgotten, your remark will help me to remember. If I have not been clear, it will help me to reword my answer or provide examples of what I mean.

 

[Johann]

I appreciate your willingness to keep the conversation, Johann. I also think it is positive.
You are asking valid questions, I agree.
I am also asking valid questions.

I appreciate when you tell me I have not addressed a question. If I have forgotten, your remark will help me to remember. If I have not been clear, it will help me to reword my answer or provide examples of what I mean.

What secondary sources are you relying on to formulate your questions against the Scriptures?

J.

 

[Complete]

The issue, as I see it, is that we need to keep engaging with him, and this is positive. He’s asking valid questions and may even know our Bible better than we do.

"Equivocating and conflating" won’t end an honest debate, and as believers, we should read his collective writings, use them, and measure them against our Scriptures.
J.

Hello @Johann,

Using ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing himself: or combining (two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, etc.) into one in order to obscure the truth, causes me to think of the work of the Antichrist, who will possibly use such tactics to counterfeit the truth and establish and perpetuate the lie

Personally, I would prefer not to engage with such false teachings, lest I become contaminated.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul emphasizes that the writings of Scripture are divinely authoritative, given by God's direct influence,

Then I agree with your perspective.
Those writings were given by God's direct influence. They were not dictated by God word by word.
God influenced the authors to choose the words, the metaphors, the analogies, and the myths that fit the needs of their audience.

Myths are not lies.
Myths are stories that generally have passed from generations to generations, to teach truths or principles held as important for a society. They may or may not get partially inspired in historical facts, but they do not intend to be historical accounts.

So, the myth of the creation in 6 days affirms God as creation, but the sequence and method of creation is not intended to be scientific.
The myth of the Fall affirms man's free will in choosing right from evil, and the consequences of disobeying God, but the events narrated there are not meant to be historical.

Same with the myth of the Flood, or the pass of Israel through the Red Sea, or Joshua making the sun stop.

Millions of Christians do not regard the story of the Garden of Eden as a historical fact. Are you saying they do not follow Christ? If you are not saying that, what are you saying, then?

 

[Johann]

Hello @Johann,

I

Yes @Complete.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What secondary sources are you relying on to formulate your questions against the Scriptures?

J.

When I formulate the question: Why don't we see prophets urging Israelites to install hundreds of tabernacles all over their territory, so that their daily sins could be forgiven? I'm using the Bible to formulate that question, as we don't find in the Bible prophets urging that.

When I formulate the question: Why Jesus didn't mention the need to believe in his deity/blood atonement/physical resurrection in his sermons about forgiveness? I am using the Bible to formulate that question, as we don't find such mention in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the parable of the king who forgave his servant, the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee, the Lord's Prayer, the times He forgave people, or the intercession on the cross in favor of the Roman soldiers.

Can you please try to answer those questions?
Our brother @civic bravely venture to give an answer the last one. He explained that probably Jesus left that teaching to his disciples.

 

[Complete]

Yes @Complete.

J.

Sorry @Johann, I entered prematurely. Look again.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your Core Block stopped at Luke--why? Why don't you believe the epistles?

I already explained it, but I thank you for the opportunity to make it clearer now.
Since more than 90% of the verses you use to support your thesis come from the epistles, it is important to understand what the Bible teaches outside those epistles, because Paul cannot contradict the rest of the Bible. Particularly he cannot contradict the explicit teachings of Jesus on the topic of forgiveness.

Paul himself does not refer to have been required to believe in Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection as a condition to be born again in the way of Damascus.

Paul adapted the teachings of Jesus to the needs of the brethren, using the words and analogies that fit thoseneeds.
But Paul could not and did not invent a new concept of God, or a new concept of God's mercy, or a new concept of good and evil.

The same applies to Jesus Himself: Jesus did not invent a new concept of God. His God was the God of Israel: the God of everyone in his audience. Jesus did not invent the concept of God's mercy and certainly, not the concept of good and evil.

 

[Johann]

When I formulate the question: Why don't we see prophets urging Israelites to install hundreds of tabernacles all over their territory, so that their daily sins could be forgiven? I'm using the Bible to formulate that question, as we don't find in the Bible prophets urging that.

When I formulate the question: Why Jesus didn't mention the need to believe in his deity/blood atonement/physical resurrection in his sermons about forgiveness? I am using the Bible to formulate that question, as we don't find such mention in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the parable of the king who forgave his servant, the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee, the Lord's Prayer, the times He forgave people, or the intercession on the cross in favor of the Roman soldiers.

Why did the Israelites have a single tabernacle in the wilderness and a single temple in Jerusalem, rather than hundreds of tabernacles, if forgiveness was to be distributed so broadly?

The Bible speaks of a centralized system of worship under the Law of Moses, where forgiveness was not seen as something offered through multiple locations or physical acts alone but through God's prescribed means of sacrifice and atonement in the Temple.

Would the concept of multiple tabernacles dilute the significance of the one place where God's presence was manifest, according to His instructions to the Israelites?

In Scripture, God specifically set apart the tabernacle (and later the Temple) as the single place where His presence dwelled and where atonement for sins was made, underscoring the significance of one means of access to God.

Is it possible that the New Testament's fulfillment of the Old Covenant, in Christ’s ultimate sacrifice, rendered the Old Testament system of multiple sacrifices obsolete?

The Bible teaches that Jesus, as the ultimate sacrifice (Hebrews 10:10), brought an end to the old sacrificial system, making a new way for forgiveness through His blood (Hebrews 9:12).

On Jesus and His Teaching on Deity, Atonement, and Resurrection:

Isn’t it possible that Jesus didn’t explicitly mention His deity, blood atonement, or physical resurrection in certain parables because they were implicit in His mission, and revealed progressively throughout His ministry?

Jesus’ divinity and sacrificial death were revealed more clearly later in His ministry, and His resurrection was foretold in passages like Matthew 12:40 and Mark 8:31. His death was not an incidental part of His ministry but the focal point of His mission (Luke 9:22; John 10:18).

Why would Jesus need to mention His deity or atonement explicitly in the parables if the whole purpose of the parables was to illustrate the kingdom of God and salvation in terms that would be understood progressively?

Parables often carried hidden truths that were revealed to those with faith (Matthew 13:11-17), and the teachings about Jesus' divinity and atonement came more clearly after His resurrection, when His disciples fully understood who He was.

Isn’t it possible that Jesus' role as the Son of God and the Savior was assumed and known by the Jewish people in His day, especially in light of His actions, such as forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7), which would have been understood as a divine prerogative?

Jesus’ authority to forgive sins, heal, and perform miracles was a claim to divine authority, and His statements about Himself (e.g., John 14:9, John 8:58) indicated His unique relationship with God. The New Testament offers a clearer revelation of His identity and work in light of His death and resurrection.

Why do you think Jesus did not emphasize His deity, atonement, or resurrection in His teachings about forgiveness, when these elements were foundational to the fulfillment of God's plan for salvation, as taught by Paul (Romans 3:24-25)?

Jesus focused on forgiveness in His parables and teachings to draw people into the reality of God's grace. However, the full revelation of His atoning death and resurrection was essential for understanding the complete scope of forgiveness, which was more fully articulated in the apostolic teachings after His resurrection (Acts 2:36-38).

Why don'' you believe the literal death, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

This from your writings-

Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library

www.bahai.org

For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus—may peace be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God’s Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God—may the blessings of God be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus—peace be upon Him—wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muḥammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur’án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamádíyu’l-Avval, 1260 A.H.,1 which is the year 1270 of the Declaration of the Mission of Muḥammad. This was the beginning of the Day of Resurrection of the Qur’án, and until the disappearance of the Tree of divine Reality is the Resurrection of the Qur’án. The stage of perfection of everything is reached when its resurrection occurreth. The perfection of the religion of Islám was consummated at the beginning of this Revelation; and from the rise of this Revelation until its setting, the fruits of the Tree of Islám, whatever they are, will become apparent. The Resurrection of the Bayán will occur at the time of the appearance of Him Whom God shall make manifest. For today the Bayán is in the stage of seed; at the beginning of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest its ultimate perfection will become apparent. He is made manifest in order to gather the fruits of the trees He hath planted; even as the Revelation of the Qá’im [He Who ariseth], a descendant of Muḥammad—may the blessings of God rest upon Him—is exactly like unto the Revelation of the Apostle of God Himself [Muḥammad]. He appeareth not, save for the purpose of gathering the fruits of Islám from the Qur’ánic verses which He [Muḥammad] hath sown in the hearts of men. The fruits of Islám cannot be gathered except through allegiance unto Him [the Qá’im] and by believing in Him. At the present time, however, only adverse effects have resulted; for although He hath appeared in the midmost heart of Islám, and all people profess it by reason of their relationship to Him [the Qá’im], yet unjustly have they consigned Him to the Mountain of Máh-Kú, and this notwithstanding that in the Qur’án the advent of the Day of Resurrection hath been promised unto all by God. For on that Day all men will be brought before God and will attain His Presence; which meaneth appearance before Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality and attainment unto His presence; inasmuch as it is not possible to appear before the Most Holy Essence of God, nor is it conceivable to seek reunion with Him. That which is feasible in the matter of appearance before Him and of meeting Him is attainment unto the Primal Tree. II, 7.

You refuse and deny the literal Cross, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus and the virgin birth-so why should I answer questions that has already been answered?

J.

 

[Johann]

Sorry @Johann, I entered prematurely. Look again.

?-I don't understand @Complete-what must I look for?

J.