God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[civic]

BIOLOGICAL DEATH IS NOT THE RESULT OF SIN​

Here are the proofs:

1. Biological death is embedded in our DNA.
2. All babies die, even when they have not sinned. All believers and all disbelievers die.
3. All plants and animals die, even when they have not sinned.
4. Trillions of organisms had died before the appearance of the first human.
5. God abhors the idea of one person paying for the sin of other: "Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16); "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the punishment of the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the punishment of the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:20)

I would like to listen to the rationale of those who believe that biological death is the result of the sin of Adam's.

biological death is a result from sin- sin leads to death. Adams sin brought forth death. Scripture make this clear. Romans 5:12 cf 1 Cor 15 below

Romans 5:12
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. / For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

biological death is a result from sin- sin leads to death. Adams sin brought forth death. Scripture make this clear. Romans 5:12 cf 1 Cor 15 below

Romans 5:12
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Dear civic

Please remember the context of the epistle or Romans: Paul is trying to keep the church united, to break the division between converts from Greek and Jewish origin.

Paul is using the allegory of the Garden of Eden, because Adam was considered The Common Ancestor of all, Jews or Greeks, and Adam was the first man described to have experienced separation from God (spiritual death)
By the same token, Christ should be considered The Common Savior of all, Jews or Greeks. He came to bring us back to God, back to Eden (spiritual eternal life).

In other words, Paul is saying: "You all have the same ancestor, and you all have the same savior. So stop the divisions! Be as One!
Adam brought separation from God, but Jesus brought reconciliation with God and with one another. So stop the divisions! Be as One!"


Let's remember that the death salvation is all about is spiritual death: separation from God.
When you are in Christ, you have overcome death: not biological death, which is good and natural, but spiritual death.

God deals with is the spiritual death, the separation from Him. This what concerns Paul in the epistle to Romans, and this is why He says
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities nor powers, neither things present nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38,39)

Paul, therefore, is not saying that we are paying for the sin committed by Adam. On the contrary, he says: "because all sinned" (I have highlighted that phrase in your post). We are all separated from God because we all have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

Paul knew the Scriptures:

• "Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16);
• "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the punishment of the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the punishment of the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:20)

 

[Obadiah]

Death is not the intended outcome for humankind; it is the result of sin.
Were there is no sin, there would be no death.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”
Revelation 21:4

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Death is not the intended outcome for humankind; it is the result of sin.

Hi Obadiah

It is good to interact with you for the first time.
The death of our bodies happens for a very good reason: to sustain life on earth.
Biological death was inscribed by God in each of our cells. It is a divine mark as it is reproduction or metabolism or, in our case, intelligence.

All people die: those who believe in Christ and those who don't. Babies and little children die, although they are citiziens of the Kingdom of God. The body of Jesus died following the same physio-pathological mechanisms that any person who was crucified. His body bled, dehydrated and suffer a slow asphyxia by the effect of his weight hanging from the cross. This happened although He lived without sin.
Cats and deer and trees and grass die. Bacteria die.

Biological death has been used across the Scriptures to symbolize spiritual death: separation from God.
That's the death that could be our concern... not biological death! I am a doctor, and I am telling you that
Paul was not concerned about biological death because He was united with Christ in love. He had received eternal life.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities nor powers, neither things present nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38)

Paul also explains that you have resurrected with Christ. How is this possible, if your body has not died? Well, because Paul is not talking about our bodies. He is talking about our souls. Your soul is quickened by the love of God expressed in Christ. Your soul has resurrected, and sits with Christ in heaven.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and He raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6)

 

[charismaticlady]

You said: "God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection."

If Christ didn't raise from the dead his death would not have paid for our sins. We would all be lost.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.”
Revelation 21:4

There will be no death because there will be no more separation from God. That's the death the passage is talking about.
Please review the passage since verse 3 and note that there is no death because God dwells with people.

And I heard a loud voice from heaven, saying, “Look! The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them. They shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. ‘God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. There shall be no more death.’[b] Neither shall there be any more sorrow nor crying nor pain, for the former things have passed away.”

In conclusion, when we are united with God, we lose fear of biological death. In due time, you and me will die, and we will gratefully give back to God the body that He had given us, so that He continues his creative work with life.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In that passage Paul is referring to spiritual death: separation from God.
The wages from sin is separation from God.
The gift from God is the reunion, reconciliation, which was the mission of Jesus Christ.

Please read with me the passage that precedes Roman 6:23. Please notice that
Paul is talking about being "dead to sin".
In that dead state, sin "reigns in our mortal bodies"
When we are "freed from sin", and bear fruits of holiness, we have "eternal life".
I have highlighted in green the key phrases:

Likewise, you also consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but yield yourselves to God, as those who are alive from the dead, and your bodies to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace....​

​

... I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh,... For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness. What fruit did you have then from the things of which you are now ashamed? The result of those things is death. But now, having been freed from sin and having become slaves of God, you have fruit unto holiness, and the end is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

 

[Obadiah]

Hi Obadiah

It is good to interact with you for the first time.
The death of our bodies happens for a very good reason: to sustain life on earth.
Biological death was inscribed by God in each of our cells. It is a divine mark as it is reproduction or metabolism or, in our case, intelligence.

All people die: those who believe in Christ and those who don't. Babies and little children die, although they are citiziens of the Kingdom of God. The body of Jesus died following the same physio-pathological mechanisms that any person who was crucified. His body bled, dehydrated and suffer a slow asphyxia by the effect of his weight hanging from the cross. This happened although He lived without sin.
Cats and deer and trees and grass die. Bacteria die.

Biological death has been used across the Scriptures to symbolize spiritual death: separation from God.
That's the death that could be our concern... not biological death! I am a doctor, and I am telling you that
Paul was not concerned about biological death because He was united with Christ in love. He had received eternal life.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities nor powers, neither things present nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38)

Paul also explains that you have resurrected with Christ. How is this possible, if your body has not died? Well, because Paul is not talking about our bodies. He is talking about our souls. Your soul is quickened by the love of God expressed in Christ. Your soul has resurrected, and sits with Christ in heaven.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and He raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6)

It's good to interact with you also.

I wonder if sin does not only inflict spiritual death but physical death as well. Possible biblical support for this is that when God curses Adam and Eve for disobeying, He mentions that “from dust we came and to dust we will return.”

Also I wonder if before Adam and Eve sinned, were they going to live forever, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[synergy]

Dear civic

Please remember the context of the epistle or Romans: Paul is trying to keep the church united, to break the division between converts from Greek and Jewish origin.

Paul is using the allegory of the Garden of Eden, because Adam was considered The Common Ancestor of all, Jews or Greeks, and Adam was the first man described to have experienced separation from God (spiritual death)
By the same token, Christ should be considered The Common Savior of all, Jews or Greeks. He came to bring us back to God, back to Eden (spiritual eternal life).

In other words, Paul is saying: "You all have the same ancestor, and you all have the same savior. So stop the divisions! Be as One!
Adam brought separation from God, but Jesus brought reconciliation with God and with one another. So stop the divisions! Be as One!"


Let's remember that the death salvation is all about is spiritual death: separation from God.
When you are in Christ, you have overcome death: not biological death, which is good and natural, but spiritual death.

God deals with is the spiritual death, the separation from Him. This what concerns Paul in the epistle to Romans, and this is why He says
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities nor powers, neither things present nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38,39)

Paul, therefore, is not saying that we are paying for the sin committed by Adam. On the contrary, he says: "because all sinned" (I have highlighted that phrase in your post). We are all separated from God because we all have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

Paul knew the Scriptures:

• "Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16);
• "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the punishment of the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the punishment of the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:20)

It is Physical Death that God is talking about. Sorry, your attempt to spiritualize this away will not work. Read Genesis 3:17-19. "To dust you shall return". It's not spiritual dust were talking about, it's physical dust were talking about here.

Genesis 3:17-19

> "And to Adam he said, 'Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, "You shall not eat of it," cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.'"

Implication: God decrees physical death as the consequence of Adam’s sin, declaring that humanity will return to the dust from which they were created. This confirms the introduction of physical mortality.

Adam was created to live forever (with access to the tree of life as a sustainer of eternal physical life). However, physical death became inevitable when he sinned, and access to the tree of life was barred. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching that physical death is a consequence of sin.

Conclusion: Salvific Forgiveness includes Eternal Life. That's only possible through the Cross. That's where our sins are forgiven, being nailed to the Cross. Salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God. Allah belittles the Cross and is therefore an Imposter.

You've had a good run but it's over for the Imposter called Allah and Usurper called Baha'u'llah.

 

[civic]

Dear civic

Please remember the context of the epistle or Romans: Paul is trying to keep the church united, to break the division between converts from Greek and Jewish origin.

Paul is using the allegory of the Garden of Eden, because Adam was considered The Common Ancestor of all, Jews or Greeks, and Adam was the first man described to have experienced separation from God (spiritual death)
By the same token, Christ should be considered The Common Savior of all, Jews or Greeks. He came to bring us back to God, back to Eden (spiritual eternal life).

In other words, Paul is saying: "You all have the same ancestor, and you all have the same savior. So stop the divisions! Be as One!
Adam brought separation from God, but Jesus brought reconciliation with God and with one another. So stop the divisions! Be as One!"


Let's remember that the death salvation is all about is spiritual death: separation from God.
When you are in Christ, you have overcome death: not biological death, which is good and natural, but spiritual death.

God deals with is the spiritual death, the separation from Him. This what concerns Paul in the epistle to Romans, and this is why He says
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities nor powers, neither things present nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38,39)

Paul, therefore, is not saying that we are paying for the sin committed by Adam. On the contrary, he says: "because all sinned" (I have highlighted that phrase in your post). We are all separated from God because we all have sinned, not because Adam sinned.

Paul knew the Scriptures:

• "Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16);
• "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the punishment of the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the punishment of the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:20)

you are avoiding the physical results of the sin of adam.

Genesis 2:17
God warns Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, threatening that they will die if they do.

Genesis 3:19
After Adam and Eve eat the fruit, God curses Adam with labor and death, saying, "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"

Nothing died prior to adams sin and the fall. The entire physical world was effected from sin.

Romans 5
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

The last enemy that will be destroyed is death

1 Cor 15:25- The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[civic]

1. Physical Death​

   Scripture is very clear regarding the meaning of physical death (physical degeneration to the point of no life function, followed by decomposition). For example, in listing some of the consequences of Adam’s rebellion, the Lord references Adam’s final corporal destiny.
   

   Till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” (Genesis 3:19)

   Obviously, this is referring to the fact that Adam’s body would eventually stop functioning and decompose. However, note that this is followed by God discussing the possibility of Adam “living forever”:
   

   Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever. (Genesis 3:22)

   This obviously cannot refer to this tree somehow enabling Adam to live forever “spiritually” because, at this point, he is in a fallen sinful state in need of salvation (being made alive in Christ). It’s only because of Jesus’ coming sacrifice that atonement would be made possible, and the tree of life couldn’t possibly provide that, or else Christ’s sacrifice wouldn’t have been needed.
   It’s apparent that God expelled our original parents from the garden of Eden so they wouldn’t eat of this tree of life and enter a most hideous state, that of becoming the “living dead”: forever physically alive and yet spiritually dead, separated from God.

2. Spiritual Death​

   Now, the idiomatic use of the word “dead” as it relates to spiritual deadness (separation from God) is seen throughout Scripture, for example:
   

   And you were dead in the trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1)

   And Jesus refers to it (although using different terms) as the necessity for a man to be “born again” in John 3:3–7.
   And we see how conversion to Christ changes the unregenerate from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive:
   

   When we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:5)

Gospel Relevance​

This understanding of death (both physical and spiritual) is directly relevant to the death and resurrection of Christ and the gospel message. Notice how the apostle Paul discusses this while explaining the gospel to believers.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. . . .
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:1–4, 12–22)

Notice the linking of the gospel Paul preached to the reality of Jesus’ resurrection from a physical death—and where that state of death came from in the first place: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” This reiterates the sentiment of Romans 5:12: death came by one man, Adam, but Christ’s sacrifice brings life.answersingenesis

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is Physical Death that God is talking about. Sorry, your attempt to spiritualize this away will not work.

It is Physical Death that God is talking about. Sorry, your attempt to spiritualize this away will not work.

Oh yes, it will work. It will work because it is true. We must spiritualize this, to be consistent not only with science, but with the rest of Scriptures.
There is plenty of evidence in Scripture that salvation is about our soul, not about our kidneys and lungs.
The kind of death God free us from is the separation from Him.

Look how Paul uses the term "dead" here, in Romans 6:13

Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but yield yourselves to God, as those who are alive from the dead, and your bodies to God as instruments of righteousness. Romans 6:13​

Could you tell us who are those persons Paul is referring to, who are "alive from the dead"? Are you one of them? Isn't your resurrection in Paul's view a spiritual fact?

Now let's read Ephesians 2:1-5. To be dead, in the context of salvation, is to experience the kind of life in which we are slaves of the lusts of the flesh.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the age of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among them we all also once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ ​

Read Genesis 3:17-19. "To dust you shall return". It's not spiritual dust were talking about, it's physical dust were talking about here.

All the episode is mythical and should be interpreted spiritually. Snakes don't talk, God did not take Eve from the rib of Adam and Adam was not made from the ground. God did not breathed into his nostrils. But now, I will give you a tip to reflect on:

The story does not present Adam and Eve dying biologically on the spot a result of disobedience.
The story presents Adam and Even being expulsed from Eden on the spot, as a result of the disobedience.
The outcome of sin is separation from the presence of God.

Look how in the Book of Revelation, the tree of life is presented again. So men are to come back to paradise, to Eden. The separation from God will have ended. Spiritual death will have ended.

"Look! The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them. They shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. ‘God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. There shall be no more death.’... On each side of the river was the tree of life, which bore twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.... Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."​

 

[civic]

Oh yes, it will work. It will work because it is true. We must spiritualize this, to be consistent not only with science, but with the rest of Scriptures.
There is plenty of evidence in Scripture that salvation is about our soul, not about our kidneys and lungs.
The kind of death God free us from is the separation from Him.

Look how Paul uses the term "dead" here, in Romans 6:13

Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but yield yourselves to God, as those who are alive from the dead, and your bodies to God as instruments of righteousness. Romans 6:13​

Could you tell us who are those persons Paul is referring to, who are "alive from the dead"? Are you one of them? Isn't your resurrection in Paul's view a spiritual fact?

Now let's read Ephesians 2:1-5. To be dead, in the context of salvation, is to experience the kind of life in which we are slaves of the lusts of the flesh.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the age of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among them we all also once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest... But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ ​

All the episode is mythical and should be interpreted spiritually. Snakes don't talk, God did not take Eve from the rib of Adam and Adam was not made from the ground. God did not breathed into his nostrils. But now, I will give you a tip to reflect on:

The story does not present Adam and Eve dying biologically on the spot a result of disobedience.
The story presents Adam and Even being expulsed from Eden on the spot, as a result of the disobedience.
The outcome of sin is separation from the presence of God.

Look how in the Book of Revelation, the tree of life is presented again. So men are to come back to paradise, to Eden. The separation from God will have ended. Spiritual death will have ended.

"Look! The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them. They shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. ‘God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. There shall be no more death.’... On each side of the river was the tree of life, which bore twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.... Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."​

The physical/bodily Resurrection proves your idea is incorrect. Jesus conquered death by rising bodily from the grave. Death had no power over Him. Jesus rose physically, not spiritually from the dead and the Apostles touched/handled His literal physical body that still contained the scars from His crucifixion in His side, hands and feet proving the dead body in the tomb was brought back to life. He is the Resurrection and the life just like He told His disciples prior to raising Lazarus from the dead PHYSICALLY.

The new heavens and earth will be physical places and believers will have physical bodies.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

1. Physical Death​

   Scripture is very clear regarding the meaning of physical death (physical degeneration to the point of no life function, followed by decomposition). For example, in listing some of the consequences of Adam’s rebellion, the Lord references Adam’s final corporal destiny.

Dear civic and @synergy:

The whole passage is allegoric. We must see in it spiritual truths, as the Book of Genesis is not a text on Astronomy or Geology or Biology.
Let's not oppose reason and science because that equals to opposing God!
We should rather find an interpretation that fits with the rest of the Bible and with science.

Adam would return to dust, but "dust" is a term used in the Bible not only in relation to physical death, but also as a metaphor of a degraded, low spiritual or existential state: Didn't God said to the serpent that it would eat dust all the days of its life? “Because you have done this, You are cursed above all livestock, and above every beast of the field; you will go on your belly, and you will eat dust all the days of your life"

So, please think: Do snakes eat dust? Of course not.
Then, dust is nothing but the lowest state, a state of degradation that disobedience or sin takes us to. It also refers to degradation of all aspects of life (poverty, disease, shame, social rejection)

Here is some evidence. Please review it carefully and see if the verse is referring to biological death.

• 1 Samuel 2:8. "He raises up the poor out of the dust and lifts up the oppressed from the dunghill to make them sit with princes and inherit a throne of glory"
• 2 Samuel 22:43 "I crushed them like the dust of the land, like the mud of the streets, I ground them and stamped them down.
• 1 Kings 16:2 “I exalted you out of the dust and made you prince over My people Israel..."
• Job 30:19 He has cast me into the mire, and I have become like dust and ashes.
• Psalm 42:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust; our body cleaves to the earth.
• Psalm 113:7 He raises up the poor out of the dust and lifts the needy out of the ash heap,
• Psalm 119: 25 My soul clings to the dust; revive me according to Your word.

Jesus also used "dust" allegorically, perhaps resorting to a known cultural expression, with the meaning of "evil" or "impurity"
Whoever will not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Jesus disciples should not get contaminated with the evil or impurity of people who rejected His message.

 

[synergy]

All the episode is mythical and should be interpreted spiritually. Snakes don't talk, God did not take Eve from the rib of Adam and Adam was not made from the ground. God did not breathed into his nostrils. But now, I will give you a tip to reflect on:

The story does not present Adam and Eve dying biologically on the spot a result of disobedience.
The story presents Adam and Even being expulsed from Eden on the spot, as a result of the disobedience.
The outcome of sin is separation from the presence of God.

It's obvious why you would degrade Genesis as just a myth. You have no choice. That's because you would have to concede that Allah is not God. Its too late, anyways, because Allah has already been exposed as having no more intelligence than a Genetic Engineer, not able to produce perpetual life.

Look how in the Book of Revelation, the tree of life is presented again. So men are to come back to paradise, to Eden. The separation from God will have ended. Spiritual death will have ended.

"Look! The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them. They shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. ‘God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. There shall be no more death.’... On each side of the river was the tree of life, which bore twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.... Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."​

Man is to return back to Paradise where Death is no more. That's only possible through the Cross.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The physical/bodily Resurrection proves your idea is incorrect. Jesus conquered death by rising bodily from the grave. Death had no power over Him. Jesus rose physically, not spiritually from the dead and the Apostles touched/handled His literal physical body that still contained the scars from His crucifixion in His side, hands and feet proving the dead body in the tomb was brought back to life. He is the Resurrection and the life just like He told His disciples prior to raising Lazarus from the dead PHYSICALLY.

The new heavens and earth will be physical places and believers will have physical bodies.

I understand and respect your belief, civic.
But if you dig into Scripture, and into science, you will see that salvation is not about our bodies.
If it were about our bodies, people who have entered the Kingdom would have immortal bodies and little children would not get sick and die.
Jesus would have come to earth to teach Medicine and would equipped his apostles with medical knowledge.
The reality is that people kept dying from cholera, malaria and plague, and almost half of women die during labor.

So, the salvation Jesus came to offer was not about bones, joints, arteries or nerves. It is not about our penises*, even when we appreciate them so much! Salvation is about the souls.


When Jesus was preparing his disciples for his departure, He made it clear that what was important is not to count on the physical presence, and He spoke this words:
"what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life (John 6:62)
And Jesus also said: "Do not fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mathew 10:28)

*NOTE: Are you worried about being resurrected with a penis you will never use... or one you will use but will never help to reproduce... or no penis at all? Of course you are not worried about these things: you are interested in the spiritual life with God. If you think you will have a penis in the resurrection, good. But do not demand that from anyone else as a condition for the forgiveness of God.

 

[synergy]

Dear civic and @synergy:

The whole passage is allegoric. We must see in it spiritual truths, as the Book of Genesis is not a text on Astronomy or Geology or Biology.
Let's not oppose reason and science because that equals to opposing God!
We should rather find an interpretation that fits with the rest of the Bible and with science.

Adam would return to dust, but "dust" is a term used in the Bible not only in relation to physical death, but also as a metaphor of a degraded, low spiritual or existential state: Didn't God said to the serpent that it would eat dust all the days of its life? “Because you have done this, You are cursed above all livestock, and above every beast of the field; you will go on your belly, and you will eat dust all the days of your life"

So, please think: Do snakes eat dust? Of course not.
Then, dust is nothing but the lowest state, a state of degradation that disobedience or sin takes us to. It also refers to degradation of all aspects of life (poverty, disease, shame, social rejection)

Here is some evidence. Please review it carefully and see if the verse is referring to biological death.

• 1 Samuel 2:8. "He raises up the poor out of the dust and lifts up the oppressed from the dunghill to make them sit with princes and inherit a throne of glory"
• 2 Samuel 22:43 "I crushed them like the dust of the land, like the mud of the streets, I ground them and stamped them down.
• 1 Kings 16:2 “I exalted you out of the dust and made you prince over My people Israel..."
• Job 30:19 He has cast me into the mire, and I have become like dust and ashes.
• Psalm 42:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust; our body cleaves to the earth.
• Psalm 113:7 He raises up the poor out of the dust and lifts the needy out of the ash heap,
• Psalm 119: 25 My soul clings to the dust; revive me according to Your word.

Jesus also used "dust" allegorically, perhaps resorting to a known cultural expression, with the meaning of "evil" or "impurity"
Whoever will not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Jesus disciples should not get contaminated with the evil or impurity of people who rejected His message.

View attachment 1145

Ground/Dust (Matter is a better term, I think) is what makes you physically alive and present. So it's not all bad unless you're a Dualistic Platonist.

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

As for Genesis, it's obvious why you would degrade Genesis as just an allegory or myth. You have no choice. That's because you would have to explain why Allah is not able to create perpetual life off the bat. Since you can't then you have no choice but to degrade it away. The jig is up. It won't work to go around trouncing whatever stands in the way of Allah's dominance.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's obvious why you would degrade Genesis as just a myth.

It is an allegory, not a historical fact.
Do you think it was a historical fact? If you do, say it and be prepared to support it with reason.

You have no choice. That's because you would have to concede that Allah is not God.

Allah is God and the author of my death and the daily death of million of cells in my body.
Praised be to Allah in my youth and old age, in my cradle and deathbed !
When I take a shower, sometimes I take a good look at my body and thank God for it. It is not mine, and I will have give it back to Him.

Its too late, anyways, because Allah has already been exposed as having no more intelligence than a Genetic Engineer, not able to produce perpetual life.

Perpetual life plus reproduction are not compatible in nature. It would be a very bad idea.
So, biological death exposes Allah as a Wise Creator.
In contrast, your posts expose you as a man in need of a High School review of Biology.

Man is to return back to Paradise where Death is no more. That's only possible through the Cross.

Then take your cross every day and follow Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Ground/Dust (Matter is a better term, I think) is what makes you physically alive and present. So it's not all bad unless you're a Dualistic Platonist.

Dust (soil) is great. It is essential for life.
I’m talking about the metaphorical use of dust in the Bible.
Since the story of the Fall is an allegory, and not a historical fact, it is reasonable to think that “dust” refers to the state of defrdation of man resulting from its separation from God (spiritual death).

 

[synergy]

It is an allegory, not a historical fact.
Do you think it was a historical fact? If you do, say it and be prepared to support it with reason.

Paul called all of Scripture "God Breathed". Need I say anything more?

Allah is God and the author of my death and the daily death of million of cells in my body.
Praised be to Allah in my youth and old age, in my cradle and deathbed !
When I take a shower, sometimes I take a good look at my body and thank God for it. It is not mine, and I will have give it back to Him.

Allah, the God of Death.
The Greeks had a name for the God of Death.
He was called Thantos.

Perpetual life plus reproduction are not compatible in nature. It would be a very bad idea.
So, biological death exposes Allah as a Wise Creator.
In contrast, your posts expose you as a man in need of a High School review of Biology.

Ethernal Life is what the God of the Bible offers us. You don't like that offer?

Then take your cross every day and follow Jesus.

I do. I have teenage children. I don't have to explain myself further. now do I?

Conclusion: Salvific Forgiveness includes Eternal Life. That's only possible through the Cross. That's where our sins are forgiven, being nailed to the Cross. Salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God. Allah belittles the Cross and is therefore an Imposter.