Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
In this thread, or in the corresponding thread?
My concern is that we lose focus on God’s requirements to forgive and transform, which is the topic being discussed.
God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
My concern is that we lose focus on God’s requirements to forgive and transform, which is the topic being discussed.
Johann
Well-known member
Glad you find it hard to understand-open the Scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate the Scriptures for you.
J.
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Johann
Well-known member
You are attempting to separate Yeshua and His redemptive work from the Holy Spirit-yet there is no forgiveness apart from the Messiah. Your Core Block fails to address the essential question of how a person is to be saved.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Readers notice scripture below which affirms the blood atonement for sin which is included in the gospel message. It is central to the gospel.And you forgot to define what the gospel is one must believe in to be saved.
I have provided the biblical details of that gospel with plenty of scriptures telling us what the gospel consists of for one to believe.
Yes the gospel which is salvific consists of the following essentials from Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-17.
1- Jesus lived
2- Jesus was crucified, died for our sins - His blood which was poured out on the cross
3- Jesus was buried
4- Jesus was physically/bodily resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day
5- Jesus was seen over 40 days by many witnesses and last of all seen by Paul
6- Jesus ascended into heaven bodily
7- this is the gospel one must believe and receive confessing He is Lord/YHWH as per Paul in Romans 10:9-13
Repenting of sins follows belief in the gospel. The forgiveness of sins comes from the blood atonement for sins made by Christ.
Lets examine more in the N.T about the Blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sins. Atonement - It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. Notice there is no punishment anywhere above for sin
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
A Walk through Hebrews
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement.
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Well-known member
I will quote @JoshebB from another thread on the gospel below. Here is some backrgound on the meaning of the word in N.T. times.
The Greek words for "good" is "kalon," and the Greek word for news is "akoe." To say "good news" in koine Greek would be to say "akoe kalon".
That is NOT the same thing as "euaggelion." An evangelion, or a gospel was a specific type of "good news," and where that specificity is not adequately understood then the phrase "good news" likewise proves inadequate.
The term "gospel" was a Roman term and it was used specifically to designate the announcement of a great feat, usually by a Roman Caesar or general. It was especially used on the occasion of a Caesar's deification. When a Caesar or a general won a significant battle he was glorified and victories of extraordinary accomplishment were rewarded with the victor being awarded the status by which he would not go to the underworld when he died, to live in the realm of Pluto or Hades. Instead, because of his great accomplishment he would be promoted to live in the Elysean Fields at the foot of Mount Olympus. They got to live among the gods. This is what deification meant. It did NOT mean a human Caesar was literally made into a god.
This term "gospel" was appropriated by the apostles deliberately. It's one of the reasons Rome began to persecute Christians. The Christian gospel was that a poor former-carpenter from Bethlehem and Nazareth, an innocent Jew who had been unjustly murdered with Roman collaboration, had won a great victory, the greatest victory of all - one not even Caesar could accomplish.
Jesus had defeated death.
And because he had defeated death, he was Lord of all lords and King of all kings, and it was his name alone that could save. Even Caesar would have to bow to God's anointed one.
The New Testament writers stole that term.
It drove Rome nuts.
Defining the word "gospel" merely as good news is inadequate because a gospel is a specific kind of good news, not just any good news. Jesus is Lord of all and Savior of some. Separating his lordship from his being savior is always a false dichotomy. Separating any one aspect of his life, his death, his resurrection, or his ascension from any other aspect is always in incomplete definition of the gospel. The word gospel was usurped from Roma and defined as something of infinite power, glory and..... service.
Then, to top off the offense.....
...the gospel writers had the temerity to claim Jesus was God, not just a deified human promoted to live in Elysium, but a God-Man who was the very logos of God, not one gifted with logos like all other humans were by Zeus. Jesus was the logos of God who was with God in the beginning and was God.
And they allowed him to be murdered.
Drove Rome nuts.
Drove Jerusalem nuts, too.
The gospel was an offense to them, and it was even more offensive that they would use the term "gospel" when offending them. The gospel is a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense. The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.
That is the gospel definition.
Johann
Well-known member
Now we know what this mean-
"he must deny himself" This is an aorist middle (deponent) imperative. There must be a decisive act. Believers must turn away from self-centered lives (the results of the Fall of Genesis 3) in all areas. This concept is similar to repentance.
Mat_16:24 "take up his cross" This is an aorist active imperative.
This same emphasis is recorded in Mar_8:35; Luk_9:24; Joh_12:25. Another decisive act is called for. Condemned criminals had to carry their cross bar to the place of crucifixion (cf. Joh_12:24). This was metaphorical of a torturous death, in this context, the death of the self-life (cf. Joh_12:24; 2Co_5:13-14; Gal_2:20; 1Jn_3:16).
"and follow Me" This is present active imperative. As the two previous phrases were decisive commands (aorist imperatives) this one speaks of habitual living. Followship (rabbinical discipleship) in a first century Jewish context had specific requirements. As Jesus called the twelve disciples to be with Him, He calls believers of every age. Jesus poured His life into these men and they had to respond by pouring their lives into others (cf. 2Ti_2:2; 1Jn_3:16). Jesus often spoke of the radical continuing nature of followship (cf. Mat_10:37-39; Mar_8:38-38; Luk_9:23-27; Luk_14:25-27; Luk_17:33; Joh_12:25).
@JoshebB displays a deep and comprehensive understanding of the Scriptures.
J.
Excellent Post!
What's happening here is that @Pancho Frijoles is siding with the Muslim-based Baha'i view that death is a natural part of life and that all souls will be resurrected at judgment time irregardless of whatever Christians claim happened at the Cross. Therefore, in their view Jesus victory over death is superfluous and inconsequential. Muslims go so far as to claim the Cross never happened.
What the Baha'i (and Muslims) have deliberately done is to throw the Genesis account of Adam's sin out the window. They refuse to acknowledge that death is the consequence of Adam's sin and to acknowledge that the Cross is needed to remedy that situation. They accept that death and decay is the best that Allah can do which clearly shows that Allah is not God. Allah is in fact an Imposter masquerading as the true God.
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civic
Well-known member
We cannot compromise the fundamentals of the gospel since it’s a salvific issue.
Yes, As is true that in all the Holy Scriptures, The God and Father of the Lord's Christ determines the "TIME" in which those HE sent, promotes the Message God sent them to promote. This same God determined that Jesus had grown in the knowledge of God, in all Wisdom, and was ready to be anointed into HIS Priesthood, as prophesied in His early 30's perhaps.
"And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
And when God had determined that Jesus was ready, when HE had learned obedience through the things HE suffered, God sent Him to a True Levi Priest, as HE spoke to Moses concerning Priesthood, to anoint Jesus into the Priesthood of God, as also Prophesied.
As it is written: "“FROM THAT TIME "Jesus" began to preach, and to say, Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
But before Jesus was anointed into God's Priesthood, there was another Priest of God who Began to preach and to say ", Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” His name was John the Baptist.
Matt. 3: 1 In those days (FROM THAT TIME) came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
In like manner, God had also prophesied of him, and chose "What time" he would be born and also directed him to preach the exact same message.
And before him there were others who also promoted the Gospel of Christ. The Prophets who the unfaithful killed.
Zach. 1:4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: (Repent) but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.
And before him;
Joel 2: 13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
And before him;
Hosea 12: 6 Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
I could go on and on. as it is also written in the Testimony.
Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
It seems important to consider all that is written, not just the verses used by this religious business or that religious franchise to promote their own philosophy.
Yes, His Disciples had heard many of the doctrines and traditions of men the Pharisees promoted, and didn't know or understand about all the Prophesies concerning Jesus. So when the "TIME" was right, according to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ who Jesus "Yielded Himself a servant to Obey", Jesus showed them what Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men and other Faithful members of the Church of God, AKA, "the Body of Christ" already knew. I can post the Scriptures which proves this, if you are interested.
Johann
Well-known member
Now we know what this mean-
"he must deny himself" This is an aorist middle (deponent) imperative. There must be a decisive act. Believers must turn away from self-centered lives (the results of the Fall of Genesis 3) in all areas. This concept is similar to repentance.
Mat_16:24 "take up his cross" This is an aorist active imperative.
This same emphasis is recorded in Mar_8:35; Luk_9:24; Joh_12:25. Another decisive act is called for. Condemned criminals had to carry their cross bar to the place of crucifixion (cf. Joh_12:24). This was metaphorical of a torturous death, in this context, the death of the self-life (cf. Joh_12:24; 2Co_5:13-14; Gal_2:20; 1Jn_3:16).
"and follow Me" This is present active imperative. As the two previous phrases were decisive commands (aorist imperatives) this one speaks of habitual living. Followship (rabbinical discipleship) in a first century Jewish context had specific requirements. As Jesus called the twelve disciples to be with Him, He calls believers of every age. Jesus poured His life into these men and they had to respond by pouring their lives into others (cf. 2Ti_2:2; 1Jn_3:16). Jesus often spoke of the radical continuing nature of followship (cf. Mat_10:37-39; Mar_8:38-38; Luk_9:23-27; Luk_14:25-27; Luk_17:33; Joh_12:25).
@JoshebB has a thorough grasp and understanding on the Scriptures
Go ahead @Studyman.
J.
Yes. It's profoundly a salvific issue since Allah is masquerating as the true God.
What type of "Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful God" is Allah in light of the fact that he threw out the window the greatest act of mercy that the true God ever exemplified to mankind, namely the Cross. Why is Allah so blind that fact?
That proves that the Bahai faith is a man-made faith. All man-made religions, like the Bahai faith, must be avoided like the plague. They miss the mark on how God saves those who truly seek him - by the Cross. His resurrection proves His power over death and offers hope of eternal life to those who believe (1 Corinthians 15:20–22), reversing the physical death sentence of Adam's sin.
CC: @Pancho Frijoles
Again, it seems prudent to consider all that is written.
Luke 13: 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are?) 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see "Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob", and all the prophets, "in the kingdom of God", and "you yourselves thrust out".
This is because when God showed them the Gospel of Christ, that Paul tells you about in Romans 1, they didn't receive it with Faith, even though God had shown them all that can be known of God. So the Faithful, that is, those who repented, turned to God and brought forth "Works" worthy of repentance, like Abraham, shall enter the Kingdom of God. But those who only serve God with their lips and reject His Judgments and commandments so that they can live after the imagination of their own hearts, their own judgments, their own righteousness, their own religion, shall not be allowed to enter.
This is nothing new, as the Prophets have warned of the exact same thing so many times it would be difficult to list them all. I am glad to provide the scriptures for you, if you care to examine them.
According to the Jesus "of the Bible's" Words I just posted, and the Scriptures I offered to show you if you are interested, Jesus Himself inspired that Abel, Noah, Abraham, Rehab, David, Daniel, Shadrack, and the entire list of the members of the Body of Christ listed in Heb. 11, are all to be in the same Kingdom as Paul and all others who lived during and after the arrival of the Prophesied Messiah.
We are under a different Priesthood, with a different High Priest, based on better promises, but the Kingdom of God remains the same for us as it is for Abraham, at least according to the God who created it.
Heb. 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they "without us" should not be made perfect.
It is, I have found, a popular marketing strategy used by the many religious businesses and sects of this world God placed me in, to promote the idea that the Kingdom of God is assured to those who adopt and contribute to their specific religious business. Like the Baptists and others who promise that those who attend their synagogues, will enter God's Kingdom for sure. In this way they compete with other religions for contributing members, without which their religious business could not survive.
No doubt those "Christians" in Matt. 7 believed they were saved and would be allowed to enter God's Kingdom. My Lord had this written so that I might take heed of this world's self-proclaimed ministers of righteousness that God, through the Prophets, Paul and Even His Only Begotten Son warned us about.
I post these scriptures and share this understanding out of love for the Brethren.
Johann
Well-known member
Where you are deceived, is believing that this is some new teaching which was not known to men prior to the Coming of the Prophesied Messiah. According to Scriptures, this was the very foundation of God's Salvation.
It is written;
Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of "thy country", and from "thy kindred", and from "thy father's house", unto a land that I will shew thee:
This is the exact same message that the Messiah, my Lord Jesus, sent by this same God, promoted in Matt. 16.
Matt. 16: 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Follow Him where? Into a land (lifestyle) that HE was sent by God to show people, as it is written by Isaiah "To show thee in the way that you should go".
Abraham was 75 years old when God called him to deny himself by leaving his religion, his old life, his traditions etc. His cross would be his life's experiences, his habits, his sins. No different than Paul was required to do, after persecuting God's Church for many years.
Cain was shown this same exact teaching.
Gen. 4: 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Even Cain was shown to "deny himself" and rule over the Sin that lieth at the door.
"Many" who come in Christ's Name, promote the philosophy that this Gospel didn't exist until Jesus was anointed by John the Baptist into the Priesthood of God. I know through study that this teaching is a falsehood. And therefore, because I love the brethren, hope to present a belief that more closely reflects what the scriptures actually teach, in the hope that they might not just accept a sermon from a promoted of this world's religions, rather, to study for themselves, "bringing every thought into the obedience of Christ", in sincere "SEEKING" of the Righteousness of God, as the Jesus of the bible walked in, and instructs other to walk in as well.
What if the "self-life" is living by the philosophies of a religious business or sect which calls Jesus Lord, Lord, but doesn't "DO" what HE says? What if Jesus was telling the Truth about Living by Every Word of God, as opposed to the philosophies of the religious sects and businesses of this world's Jesus warned us about?
Like Abraham's habitual living for 75 years he was told to "leave", Yes? Like living by the doctrines and traditions of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines that Zacharias, Simeon and Anna LEFT, Yes?
So if you are habitually living by the dictates of a religious business who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", or a religion who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, who teach in Christ's name? and in Christ's name have cast out devils? and in Christ's name done many wonderful works, but live in transgression of God's Commandments and judgments. Are we not told by Jesus to deny this way of life, this habitual living, and "Come out of her" and follow HIM to become the New Man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"?
This stuff should matter to men, Yes?
No, this is not true according to Scriptures. Paul didn't "Pour his life into others", he poured Christ's life that was in him, into others.
Gal. 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith "of the Son of God", who loved me, and gave himself for me.
It is this Faith, the Faith that was in the man Jesus, that we are to live by. Not the faith "of the Pope" or Kenneth Copeland, or others who "Transform themselves into apostles of Christ.
This error in your philosophy is the reason why there are so many different competing religious businesses. Christ is one. But these religions are founded on the opinions of all these different preachers poured out on others as you preach. And so, it is this world's traditions to pick a preacher and adopt and further their religious philosophies. There are so many. Wesley, Calvin, Miller, Russell, Baker, just to name a few.
I believe Jesus said "be not like unto them", and To "Come out of her", the "her" being this world's religious system. In this way Pancho is right to say that he is not required to adopt the philosophies of your specific religious sect, in order to be accepted by God. The problem is that so many make their judgment of God based on the preaching and lifestyles of the "many" who preach in His Name. My hope is that men came come to understand that this is not always true, in the same way it wasn't true that the religious sect of the Pharisees represented God's Laws or Character. As it is written: "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you"
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
First, when you refer to the Core Block, remember that you are talking about inspired Scriptures, including the teachings from Jesus' lips.
Second, those passages DO address HOW a person is forgiven.
Your problem is that you do not accept the method that those 21 passages from Scriptures present.
The essential question of how a person is forgiven is answered like this:
STEP 1: The sinner repents
STEP 2: God forgives.
This is the method. This is the how. This has always been the how. Jesus taught it. You believe in Jesus: so believe what He teaches.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
BIOLOGICAL DEATH IS NOT THE RESULT OF SIN
Here are the proofs:
- Biological death is embedded in our DNA.
- All babies die, even when they have not sinned. All believers and all disbelievers die.
- All plants and animals die, even when they have not sinned.
- Trillions of organisms had died before the appearance of the first human.
- God abhors the idea of one person paying for the sin of other: "Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16); "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the punishment of the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the punishment of the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:20)
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
God has always forgiven, without the need of any cross, any blood, any baptism, any circumcision, any inciense, any shrine, any doctrinal confession.
If you deny that fact, you are denying Scripture, history and reality.
God does not need any blood atonement to forgive.
The 21 passages I have quoted, including the explanation from Jesus Himself, prove it
Sin has nothing to do with physical death.
Time to wake up! The Bible is NOT a text of Biology.
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