God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[mikesw]

You can't answer the question because you know you have embraced another gospel.

Can you explain why scores of bahaji members are leaving that faith? Due to emotional stress and more?

Many former members of the Baha'i Faith have left due to various concerns about the teachings, organizational structure, and personal experiences within the religion. Here are some of the reasons cited by ex-members:

Contradictions in Teachings: Some former Baha'is point to contradictions within the faith's core texts and teachings. For instance, while the religion promotes gender equality, its highest governing body, the Universal House of Justice, excludes women from membership.

Additionally, the faith emphasizes the independent search for truth but simultaneously declares the writings of its central figures as infallible, limiting intellectual freedom for many adherents.

Legalism and Spiritual Disconnect: Many have expressed frustration with the heavy emphasis on administrative and legalistic aspects of the religion, which they feel overshadows spiritual teachings. Some report that the rigid focus on rules and community structure leaves little room for personal spiritual connection or growth.

Hypocrisy and Control: Accusations of hypocrisy and cult-like control mechanisms are common. Examples include shaming dissenters, tracking members, information control, and discouraging open dialogue about issues within the faith. These tactics alienate members who value transparency and autonomy.

Emotional and Psychological Strain: The religion's strict expectations and administrative demands have led some members to experience feelings of inadequacy, guilt, isolation, and even depression. This emotional toll often drives individuals to reconsider their participation in the faith.

Disillusionment with Leadership: Concerns about how leadership enforces uniformity and suppresses dissent are frequent. For example, legal actions against splinter groups and efforts to monopolize Baha'i terminology have been seen by some as authoritarian and contrary to the faith's ideals of unity.

Cultural and Historical Issues: Some critics note that the Baha'i Faith originated in a context influenced by 19th-century Shiite Islam, which has led to accusations that certain practices or beliefs reflect outdated or problematic cultural norms.

Personal stories of those who have left often highlight a combination of these factors, revealing a gap between the faith's ideals and the lived experiences of its adherents. For more insights and testimonies, you can explore resources like the Baha’i Insider and other platforms for ex-Baha’is that discuss these issues in depth

STELLADAPTOR - SOMETHING NEW

THE BAHAI INSIDER

DALE HUSBAND'S INTELLECTUAL RANTS


--and I have more.

J.

It does sound like there is at least a significant work of the Baha'i law in the requirement to study and know many of the larger religions. This removes them from a pure concept of justification by grace. Instead, they get a great burden of reading and studying. Then they probably are sent out to various forums to promote Baha'i interpretations of the other religions to interrupt the standard doctrines while promoting unorthodox groups like the Unitarians under the guise of promoting unity.

Thanks for sharing this info Johann. It affirms that Pancho Frijoles' approach is standard operation of the Baha'is

 

[Johann]

No, I can't answer the question because I know I have NOT rejected Jesus' gospel
Since you are framing your question on the premise I have, then I can't answer it.


No, I have not studied the phenomenon. So I don't know its magnitude or its causes.
Can you explain why millions of people have left Christianism to embrace atheism?
Perhaps we could find coincidences in both phenomena. That would be a good discussion of another thread.

Atheism was close to zero in most Europe for centuries. Now, in the Czech Republic, it is 37%.
Regular attendance to church in Nordic countries, once a stronghold of Christianism, has fallen to 3%.

The primary reason why some "Christians" abandon the faith is due to a lack of genuine, transformative belief in Christ. They are often nominal Christians, denying the faith by rejecting its core message and imperative. Scripture addresses this phenomenon clearly. In 1 John 2:19, we read:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that all of them are not of us."

Here, the Greek verb ἔξηλθον (exēlthon), meaning "they went out," implies an active departure, suggesting an intentional rejection of fellowship and belief.

The contrast with μεμενήκεισαν (memenēkeisan), from the verb μένω (menō), "to remain," emphasizes perseverance as evidence of genuine faith.

Paul similarly warns about turning to "another gospel" in Galatians 1:6–7: "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who are troubling you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ."

The Greek term μετατίθεσθε (metatithesthe), "turning away," conveys the act of switching allegiances or deserting the true message.

When people abandon the gospel, they often embrace ideas that tickle their ears but lack substance, as Paul describes in 2 Timothy 4:3–4: "For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to their own desires, they will heap up for themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

The verbs ἀποστρέψουσιν (apostrepsousin) and ἐκτραπήσονται (ektrapēsontai) highlight a deliberate rejection and misdirection from the truth.

As for the Baháʼí Faith, similar dynamics are at play. Members leave when they perceive contradictions, experience disillusionment with the leadership, or find its teachings insufficient. For example, some reject its rigid administrative systems, which they feel clash with personal spiritual growth.

I can provide links and video clips, if you like.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is all confirming to me that our world, as you see it now, with decay and death being the norm, is the best that Allah could claim to create.

I don't know if the best. I don't know how Allah created life (or conditions for life) in other planets.
But I would say it is good enough for us.
Biological death, when happening in its due time and way, is good for creation. It is the recycling of matter and energy. This how you were formed in the first place. Didn't you know you are alive because of organisms (including other people) who have died?

Sure, Allah promises a Heaven for believers but if this world is the best that Allah can do then we're all in for a very rude awakening.

Well, sooner or later you and me will have to give back what belongs to God.
I hope it is not a rude awakening for any of us, but an expected reality that we will embrace with gratitude.

The True God had built a perfect Paradise for man before sin infected it and death appeared.

There was no time in which biological death was not part of life.
If you are referring to spiritual death, that's a different story.

The only way back is the Cross. There is no other way. That is the salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God.

Then explain what is the salvific forgiveness God has provided to 99.99% of men over 99.99% of ages, because it did not involve any knowledge or awareness about any cross.
If your Theology cannot provide an answer, perhaps it is as sectarian as that of @jeremiah1five , that you invested time to refute.
His theology makes God send Chinese to hell, because they were Chinese.
Your theology makes God send Muslims to hell, because they are Muslims.

(I'm just being provocative here: I don't think you really believe that God sends Muslims to hell).

 

[Johann]

It does sound like there is at least a significant work of the Baha'i law in the requirement to study and know many of the larger religions. This removes them from a pure concept of justification by grace. Instead, they get a great burden of reading and studying. Then they probably are sent out to various forums to promote Baha'i interpretations of the other religions to interrupt the standard doctrines while promoting unorthodox groups like the Unitarians under the guise of promoting unity.

Thanks for sharing this info Johann. It affirms that Pancho Frijoles' approach is standard operation of the Baha'is

Absolutely correct brother.

Johann.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The primary reason why some "Christians" abandon the faith is due to a lack of genuine, transformative belief in Christ. They are often nominal Christians, denying the faith by rejecting its core message and imperative.

As for the Baháʼí Faith, similar dynamics are at play.

I agree... but I guess we should not put all the blame on the people who leave, accusing them of "nominal Christians" or "nominal Baha'is". That is an easy way to feel disconnected from what they experienced... that make us feel we are not part of the problem.
I think we are all responsible for creating a good environment for our brothers and sisters, in which they see consistency between what we preach and what we practice... an environment in which they feel loved and stimulated to keep growing.
Jesus asked us to be a light to the world, so that people outside could see our good works and glorify God.

 

[mikesw]

I agree... but I guess we should not put all the blame on the people who leave, accusing them of "nominal Christians" or "nominal Baha'is". That is an easy way to feel disconnected from what they experienced... that make us feel we are not part of the problem.
I think we are all responsible for creating a good environment for our brothers and sisters, in which they see consistency between what we preach and what we practice... an environment in which they feel loved and stimulated to keep growing.
Jesus asked us to be a light to the world, so that people outside could see our good works and glorify God.

It is not a good work for a Baha'i adherent to go and destroy the faith of those who have come to Christ by the grace through his sacrifice.

 

[Johann]

I agree... but I guess we should not put all the blame on the people who leave, accusing them of "nominal Christians" or "nominal Baha'is". That is an easy way to feel disconnected from what they experienced... that make us feel we are not part of the problem.
I think we are all responsible for creating a good environment for our brothers and sisters, in which they see consistency between what we preach and what we practice... an environment in which they feel loved and stimulated to keep growing.
Jesus asked us to be a light to the world, so that people outside could see our good works and glorify God.

I know the reasons why nominal "Christians" are leaving the faith and the widespread falling away that we are witnessing today. The Scriptures have long warned us about such departures. In Matthew 13:20–21, Jesus speaks of those who receive the word with joy but fall away when trials come:

"The one sown on rocky places is the one who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." (NIV)

Here, "they quickly fall away" translates σκανδαλίζονται (skandalizontai), meaning "to stumble" or "to be offended." It is clear that without deep roots in the truth, they are easily swayed and fall away.

Similarly, 1 Timothy 4:1 gives a prophetic warning about the latter days:

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

The Greek word ἀποστήσονται (apostēsontai), meaning "they will depart," reflects a deliberate turning away, suggesting that these individuals intentionally reject the faith they once embraced.

So, my question stands: Why are you not aware of the same phenomenon occurring within your own organization? Why is there no acknowledgment of why Baháʼí members are leaving and sharing their testimonies of disillusionment?

In Hosea 4:6, God declares: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." This lack of awareness, especially about internal struggles, can lead to further disillusionment. It's not just a matter of theoretical knowledge but personal awareness of how members are grappling with the faith and its teachings. The "faithful" often fail to ask the hard questions or understand the cracks that are forming.

As the apostle Paul warned in 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test?"

The failure to test, to truly examine why people are leaving or struggling, leads to a lack of growth, both individually and as a community.

You may want to consider why so many members of the Baháʼí Faith are expressing frustration and seeking to leave. Their testimonies are powerful indicators of unresolved issues and contradictions that need to be addressed.

In my next post I will share the testimonies.

J.

 

[synergy]

I don't know if the best. I don't know how Allah created life (or conditions for life) in other planets.
But I would say it is good enough for us.
Biological death, when happening in its due time and way, is good for creation. It is the recycling of matter and energy. This how you were formed in the first place. Didn't you know you are alive because of organisms (including other people) who have died?

It's good enough for Muslims who settle for an Allah who doesn't have the power to create life without death. What kind of a God cannot create perpetual life? He's no better than your typical Genetic Engineer.

Well, sooner or later you and me will have to give back what belongs to God.
I hope it is not a rude awakening for any of us, but an expected reality that we will embrace with gratitude.

If Muslim view of Allah is at the same level of a Genetic Engineer then all Muslims will have a very rude awakening in the afterlife.

There was no time in which biological death was not part of life.
If you are referring to spiritual death, that's a different story.

It's your word against Paradise as recorded in Genesis.

Then explain what is the salvific forgiveness God has provided to 99.99% of men over 99.99% of ages, because it did not involve any knowledge or awareness about any cross.
If your Theology cannot provide an answer, perhaps it is as sectarian as that of @jeremiah1five , that you invested time to refute.
His theology makes God send Chinese to hell, because they were Chinese.
Your theology makes God send Muslims to hell, because they are Muslims.

I already told you how the Bible records God handling non-informed people. You did not reject it.

(I'm just being provocative here: I don't think you really believe that God sends Muslims to hell).

Good.

Conclusion: The only way back to Paradise is the Cross. There is no other way. That is the salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, my question stands: Why are you not aware of the same phenomenon occurring within your own organization? Why is there no acknowledgment of why Baháʼí members are leaving and sharing their testimonies of disillusionment?

I don't know. I can only speculate.
I suppose it has to do with materialism, consumerism, hedonism operating in our society in a way we haven't been able to properly address.
Perhaps an excessive emphasis on the administration of the Baha'i community rather than in the spiritual needs of each member.
In the case of the Baha'i Faith, I don't visualize any particular doctrine that could be a factor... perhaps the prohibition of gay marriage?
One of the main principles of the Baha'i principle is the abolition of prejudices, but the Baha'i faith only recognizes sexual relations between men and women. I think that some views on homosexuality prevalent across abrahamic religions were valid in other contexts, but have become prejudices, without a scientific basis. But I don't know if this is playing a role or not.

 

[Johann]

I don't know. I can only speculate.
I suppose it has to do with materialism, consumerism, hedonism operating in our society in a way we haven't been able to properly address.
Perhaps an excessive emphasis on the administration of the Baha'i community rather than in the spiritual needs of each member.
In the case of the Baha'i Faith, I don't visualize any particular doctrine that could be a factor... perhaps the prohibition of gay marriage?
One of the main principles of the Baha'i principle is the abolition of prejudices, but the Baha'i faith only recognizes sexual relations between men and women. I think that some views on homosexuality prevalent across abrahamic religions were valid in other contexts, but have become prejudices, without a scientific basis. But I don't know if this is playing a role or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCcoyxjLJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmTNA3U7gY4

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

For the readers.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's good enough for Muslims who settle for an Allah who doesn't have the power to create life without death. What kind of a God cannot create perpetual life? He's no better than your typical Genetic Engineer.

I guess Allah has the power to create pink cows that fly with supersonic speed and produce strawberry-flavored milk. It is just that nobody has found evidence of those cows, and since it violates all what we know about biology, it is reasonable to state Allah didn't create them.
By the same token, there is no evidence that life on earth has ever existed without death.

Your statement about biological death originating in the sin of a man is false.
So, either you change your interpretation of the verse in Romans, or you get stuck in superstition.
Don't expect any respect from any person you preach to in regard to such claim.
If you value Scriptures, please protect them from superstitious interpretations and don't teach your children things against reason and science.

It's your word against Paradise as recorded in Genesis.

My word? What's going on?

I already told you how the Bible records God handling non-informed people. You did not reject it.

That's true. I haven't properly reviewed nor comment that post but I remember it was very good.
My apologies, synergy.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sometimes people wonder how those who lived before Christ were saved. The answer is, they were saved in the same way that we are saved, through faith in the shed blood of Christ. The sacrifices that they offered symbolized or pictured the sacrifice of Christ who would offer Himself as their substitute.

Please think in what you wrote here.
Respectfully, it makes no sense.

• First, not all civilizations made animal sacrifices. Some offered vegetables. Some fish or inciense. So, if blood was necessary, we cannot explain how God forgave people who did not practice the shedding of blood.
• Second, God did not explain that animal sacrifices symbolized the future sacrifice of a Messiah. There is no evidence in the Bible.
• Third, God abhorred human sacrifices. If the point was to symbolize the future sacrifice of an Innocent human, God had asked the Israel to do what the people of Moab did: to sacrifice your son before Moloch.
• Fourth, we have 21 passages in the Bible that address the topic of forgiveness before Paul. None of them mentions anything remotely related to blood substitutionary atonement. Within these 21 passages we have explanations of Jesus Himself.

Therefore, your claim has been refuted.

Isaiah (53:5-6, 11) wrote,

But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him…. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.

The verse you are quoting was written CENTURIES after animal sacrifices were initiated. So, people had no clue on whether they were refering to a future Messiah.
Besides, the text itself makes no connection to animal sacrifices so that people could link one thing with the other.
The fact that Israelites did NOT expected the Messiah to be killed (think in the apostles or the Ethiopian Jew who Phillip converted) indicates that people did not interpreted Isaiah 53 as having any association with blood atonement.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

But the Bible is clear that God is absolutely holy and just. He will punish all sin.

I agree that God will punish all sin. But being wrong about Theology is not a sin, as being wrong about Geography or Physics is not a sin.
If a Jehovah Witness lady does not believe in Jesus deity, she is not committing a sin. Perhaps she is wrong, but errors are not sins.

His love does not mean that He sets aside His holiness or His justice.

That's true. Precisely because his justice, He won't send to hell 25 millions of Sikhs for being Sikhs. Not even the worst of our human judges would do that. Such thing is called GENOCIDE. If you need the definition of genocide I can gladly provide it in one of my next posts.

 

[mikesw]

I agree that God will punish all sin. But being wrong about Theology is not a sin, as being wrong about Geography or Physics is not a sin.
If a Jehovah Witness lady does not believe in Jesus deity, she is not committing a sin. Perhaps she is wrong, but errors are not sins.


That's true. Precisely because his justice, He won't send to hell 25 millions of Sikhs for being Sikhs. Not even the worst of our human judges would do that. Such thing is called GENOCIDE. If you need the definition of genocide I can gladly provide it in one of my next posts.

The DENIAL OF CHRIST AND HIS BLOOD ATONEMENT IS SIN especially when someone constantly argues against what scripture has revealed to us after debating against the truth for weeks and months. Pancho Frijoles takes an active role to block people from coming to know God through Christ Jesus -- who is the only way, truth, and life.

 

[Johann]

Please think in what you wrote here.
Respectfully, it makes no sense.

• First, not all civilizations made animal sacrifices. Some offered vegetables. Some fish or inciense. So, if blood was necessary, we cannot explain how God forgave people who did not practice the shedding of blood.
• Second, God did not explain that animal sacrifices symbolized the future sacrifice of a Messiah. There is no evidence in the Bible.
• Third, God abhorred human sacrifices. If the point was to symbolize the future sacrifice of an Innocent human, God had asked the Israel to do what the people of Moab did: to sacrifice your son before Moloch.
• Fourth, we have 21 passages in the Bible that address the topic of forgiveness before Paul. None of them mentions anything remotely related to blood substitutionary atonement. Within these 21 passages we have explanations of Jesus Himself.

Therefore, your claim has been refuted.

You have been refuted numerous times-

• First, not all civilizations made animal sacrifices. Some offered vegetables. Some fish or inciense. So, if blood was necessary, we cannot explain how God forgave people who did not practice the shedding of blood.
• Second, God did not explain that animal sacrifices symbolized the future sacrifice of a Messiah. There is no evidence in the Bible.
• Third, God abhorred human sacrifices. If the point was to symbolize the future sacrifice of an Innocent human, God had asked the Israel to do what the people of Moab did: to sacrifice your son before Moloch.
• Fourth, we have 21 passages in the Bible that address the topic of forgiveness before Paul. None of them mentions anything remotely related to blood substitutionary atonement. Within these 21 passages we have explanations of Jesus Himself.

Therefore, your claim has been refuted.

Again, you stand refuted-here's why you reject the blood atonement.


The rejection of the doctrine of blood atonement by the Bahá'í Faith stems from its distinct theological framework, which views religious teachings through a progressive lens, emphasizing the oneness of humanity, divine unity, and the evolving revelation of God’s will.

While this belief in atonement is a key tenet of Christianity, Bahá'í theology offers an alternative understanding that does not rely on the notion of a vicarious sacrifice for sin.

Several core ideas can be drawn from Bahá'í writings to explain this rejection:

Divine Justice and Mercy: The Bahá'í Faith teaches that God's justice and mercy are reconciled in a way that does not require the sacrificial death of a divine figure to atone for human sin. Bahá'ís believe that God's mercy is abundant, and His forgiveness is accessible through repentance, not through a blood sacrifice. As `Abdu'l-Bahá, one of the central figures in the Bahá'í Faith, stated:

"God is free from all need of sacrifice, for He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and He is the Most Merciful and the Most Compassionate" (Some Answered Questions, p. 217).

Error ^^^^

The Role of Christ:

While the Bahá'í Faith reveres Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God, the understanding of His mission differs significantly from traditional Christian theology. Bahá'ís believe that Christ's crucifixion was not an atoning sacrifice but a demonstration of His love and obedience to God, and that His role was to bring a new revelation from God, not to serve as a literal sacrifice for humanity's sins. `Abdu'l-Bahá clarifies this point:

"The martyrdom of Christ was not a vicarious atonement, nor was it a condition for the forgiveness of sins. It was the manifestation of the greatest love, the greatest devotion, the greatest service to humanity" (The Promised Day Is Come, p. 116).

Error

Progressive Revelation:

A central tenet of Bahá'í belief is the concept of progressive revelation, which holds that God’s will is revealed through different Prophets or Manifestations (such as Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Bahá'u'lláh) across time. The Bahá'í Faith teaches that each of these Manifestations brings teachings appropriate for the time and place in which they appear. The Bahá'í interpretation of Jesus' teachings does not include the necessity of His death as a form of atonement. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, writes:

"The station of Christ is beyond the reach of any created being. It is not for anyone to claim the station of atonement, for the sacrifice of His life was a proof of His great love for the souls of men" (The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 114).

Humanity’s Spiritual Progress:

In Bahá'í theology, salvation and atonement are not tied to a singular event in history but are seen as an ongoing process of spiritual growth and refinement. The Bahá'í Faith emphasizes personal responsibility, repentance, and the development of virtuous character as the means for drawing closer to God and attaining salvation. Sin is not viewed as a debt to be paid through sacrifice, but rather as a distance between the soul and God that can be overcome through spiritual striving. As `Abdu'l-Bahá states:

"The way to God is through purity of soul, righteousness of action, and sincerity of heart, not through the shedding of blood" (Some Answered Questions, p. 246).

Error.

Symbolism of the Cross:

The Bahá'í interpretation of the crucifixion of Jesus focuses on its symbolic meaning rather than any literal understanding of atonement through blood. The cross, in Bahá'í belief, represents the self-sacrifice and love of Jesus, not a mechanism for forgiving sins. `Abdu'l-Bahá explains:

Error.

"The death of Jesus upon the cross was an example of the utmost sacrifice, and it was the greatest martyrdom in the world. However, it was not a sacrifice for the sins of others, but rather a symbol of love and devotion to humanity" (Some Answered Questions, p. 232).

In sum, the Bahá'í rejection of blood atonement is grounded in its unique theological framework that emphasizes God’s mercy, the symbolic meaning of Christ’s sacrifice, the progressive nature of revelation, and the role of individual spiritual growth in the salvation process. These principles provide an alternative to the Christian doctrine of vicarious atonement by showing that spiritual healing and forgiveness come through personal repentance and striving toward virtue, not through a blood sacrifice.

I have some excellent video clips from Muslims debunking your new "faith"

Did you see it?

https://youtu.be/86zDhR-t96U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmgmocliRec&pp=ygUcbXVzbGltcyBkZWJ1bmtzIGJhaGFqaSBmYWl0aA==

Sorry friend-are you here seeking converts? Proselytizing?

J.

 

[synergy]

I guess Allah has the power to create pink cows that fly with supersonic speed and produce strawberry-flavored milk. It is just that nobody has found evidence of those cows, and since it violates all what we know about biology, it is reasonable to state Allah didn't create them.
By the same token, there is no evidence that life on earth has ever existed without death.

God's life has existed without death. Also, it's eternal life that we're promised. You don't believe that? That's what happens when one follows a man-imagined being called Allah that is no more intelligent than a Genetic Engineer.

Your statement about biological death originating in the sin of a man is false.
So, either you change your interpretation of the verse in Romans, or you get stuck in superstition.
Don't expect any respect from any person you preach to in regard to such claim.
If you value Scriptures, please protect them from superstitious interpretations and don't teach your children things against reason and science.

It's your statement against Genesis. I'll go with Genesis. It's fascinating just how anti-Biblical is Islam.

Conclusion: The only way back to Biblical Paradise is the Cross. There is no other way. That is the salvific forgiveness for man that can only come from the true God.

 

[Johann]

I agree that God will punish all sin. But being wrong about Theology is not a sin, as being wrong about Geography or Physics is not a sin.
If a Jehovah Witness lady does not believe in Jesus deity, she is not committing a sin. Perhaps she is wrong, but errors are not sins.

How does the sinner get transformed?

Like this?

In the Bahá'í Faith, the transformation of a sinner occurs through personal effort, divine assistance, and the cultivation of spiritual virtues, rather than through the belief in blood atonement or vicarious sacrifice.

This process emphasizes the individual's responsibility to recognize their spiritual shortcomings and actively work toward self-improvement while seeking God's guidance and mercy. Key elements of this transformation include the following:

Repentance and Turning to God: The sinner must first acknowledge their errors and sincerely repent. This act of turning to God is seen as the first step in the transformative process, as it opens the heart to divine guidance. `Abdu'l-Bahá explains:

"The sinner must repent and seek forgiveness, for through repentance the soul becomes purified and is drawn nearer to God" (Some Answered Questions, p. 231).

Recognition of God's Mercy: In Bahá'í teachings, God's forgiveness is freely given to those who genuinely repent. Unlike the doctrine of blood atonement, the Bahá'í Faith holds that divine mercy is not contingent upon a sacrificial act but is ever-present for those who seek it with sincerity. Bahá'u'lláh writes:

"Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Beware lest ye hesitate in your acceptance of this truth, for this is the shining light that leadeth whosoever turneth thereunto to the safe haven of My presence" (The Hidden Words).

Acquisition of Virtues: Transformation is achieved through the active pursuit of virtues such as love, humility, patience, and service to others. By aligning one's actions and thoughts with spiritual principles, the individual becomes a reflection of divine attributes. `Abdu'l-Bahá states:

"The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life" (Bahá'í World Faith, p. 382).

Continuous Effort and Striving:

Spiritual growth is viewed as an ongoing process requiring effort and perseverance. The sinner is transformed not through a single event but through a lifelong commitment to self-refinement and devotion to God. Bahá'u'lláh emphasizes:

"Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds" (The Hidden Words).

Connection with Divine Revelation: Bahá'ís believe that studying the sacred writings and meditating on the teachings of God provide guidance for moral and spiritual development. This connection with divine revelation acts as a source of strength and enlightenment, helping the individual overcome sinful tendencies.

Service to Humanity:

True transformation is demonstrated through acts of service, as service to others is considered a form of worship in the Bahá'í Faith. By focusing on the well-being of humanity, the sinner shifts their perspective from self-centeredness to selflessness, which is essential for spiritual growth.

To summarize, in the Bahá'í Faith, the sinner is transformed by recognizing their need for change, seeking God's forgiveness, striving to embody divine virtues, and engaging in continuous self-improvement and service to others. This transformation is rooted in a direct relationship with God and the individual's conscious effort to align their life with spiritual truths, rather than relying on an external act of atonement.
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The Scriptures are clear that the radical transformation of a sinner’s life comes not through human effort or good works, but through the saving work of Jesus Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the grace of God. This transformation is often referred to as being "born again" or "quickened," and it involves both justification (being declared righteous) and sanctification (being made holy). Let’s examine what Scripture teaches about this profound change:

Quickened by the Holy Spirit:
A sinner is made alive, or "quickened," by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Paul writes in Ephesians 2:1-5:

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world...even when we were dead in trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ-by grace you are saved!"

Eph 2:1 και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις
Eph 2:2 εν αις ποτε περιεπατησατε κατα τον αιωνα του κοσμου τουτου κατα τον αρχοντα της εξουσιας του αερος του πνευματος του νυν ενεργουντος εν τοις υιοις της απειθειας
Eph 2:3 εν οις και ημεις παντες ανεστραφημεν ποτε εν ταις επιθυμιαις της σαρκος ημων ποιουντες τα θεληματα της σαρκος και των διανοιων και ημεν τεκνα φυσει οργης ως και οι λοιποι
Eph 2:4 ο δε θεος πλουσιος ων εν ελεει δια την πολλην αγαπην αυτου ην ηγαπησεν ημας
Eph 2:5 και οντας ημας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν συνεζωοποιησεν τω χριστω χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι

This passage highlights that transformation begins with God’s initiative. While we were spiritually dead, God, through His mercy and love, brought us to life in Christ.

Illumination by the Spirit:
The Holy Spirit enlightens the sinner, enabling them to understand the truth of the Gospel. 2 Corinthians 4:6 says:

"For God who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Without the Spirit’s illumination, the sinner remains blind to the truths of God. It is not human effort but divine revelation that opens the eyes of the heart (Ephesians 1:18).

Faith in the Gospel of Christ:
Transformation happens when a sinner believes in the message of the cross. Paul declares in Romans 1:16:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..."

The Gospel centers on Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), and it is through faith in His atoning work that a person is justified before God.

The Cross and the New Creation:
It is the crucifixion of Christ that makes a new life possible. Paul writes in Galatians 2:20:

"I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

The believer’s transformation is not self-driven; it is Christ living in them that produces the radical change.

The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit:
At the moment of faith, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, empowering them for holy living. Romans 8:9-11 says:

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

The Spirit not only gives new life but also leads the believer in a walk of obedience and transformation.

The Role of Grace, Not Works:
Salvation and transformation are entirely by grace and not by works. Titus 3:5-6 states:

"He saved us not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. He poured out His Spirit on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Human effort plays no role in regeneration. It is the work of God through His Spirit and the merit of Christ alone.

Bearing Fruit Through the Spirit:
Once transformed, the believer’s life bears fruit as evidence of this change. This fruit is the work of the Spirit, not human effort. Galatians 5:22-23 says:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control..."
The Spirit produces these virtues in the believer as they grow in sanctification.

Summary
The radical transformation of a sinner is entirely the work of God: it begins with the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit, who quickens the dead sinner to life and enables them to believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Through faith in Christ’s death and resurrection, the sinner is justified and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who indwells them and empowers them to live a life that glorifies God. This transformation is not achieved through human effort but through the grace of God, as revealed in the Gospel.

Let us hold fast to the truth that salvation and transformation come only through Christ and His Spirit, not by our own works==

Contrary to what is written in your books and founder--"Another gospel"

1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,
1Co 15:2 through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,
1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,
1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve,
1Co 15:6 afterwards he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain till now, and certain also did fall asleep;
1Co 15:7 afterwards he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all—as to the untimely birth—he appeared also to me,
1Co 15:9 for I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I did persecute the assembly of God,
1Co 15:10 and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me;
1Co 15:11 whether, then, I or they, so we preach, and so ye did believe.

The Resurrection of the Dead
1Co 15:12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
1Co 15:13 and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
1Co 15:14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
1Co 15:15 and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
1Co 15:18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
1Co 15:19 if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead—the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
1Co 15:21 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24 then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power—
1Co 15:25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet—
1Co 15:26 the last enemy is done away—death;
1Co 15:27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
1Co 15:28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
1Co 15:29 Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 why also do we stand in peril every hour?
1Co 15:31 Every day do I die, by the glorying of you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord:
1Co 15:32 if after the manner of a man with wild beasts I fought in Ephesus, what the advantage to me if the dead do not rise? let us eat and drink, for to-morrow we die!
1Co 15:33 Be not led astray; evil communications corrupt good manners;
1Co 15:34 awake up, as is right, and sin not; for certain have an ignorance of God; for shame to you I say it .

The Scripture is my witness and refutes you false belief system.

J.

 

[synergy]

I have some excellent video clips from Muslims debunking your new "faith"

Did you see it?

The Baha'i faith attempts to gut out each religion in order to absorb it into its collective. That reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek who are a cybernetically enhanced collective of various species that assimilate other races into their collective. The only difference between the Borg and the Baha'i is that the Borg do it forcefully whereas the Baha'i do it verbally.

 

[Johann]

The Baha'i faith attempts to gut out each religion in order to absorb it into its collective. That reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek who are a cybernetically enhanced collective of various species that assimilate other races into their collective. The only difference between the Borg and the Baha'i is that the Borg do it forcefully whereas the Baha'i do it verbally.

--and covertly.

J.

 

[mikesw]

The Baha'i faith attempts to gut out each religion in order to absorb it into its collective. That reminds me of the Borg in Star Trek who are a cybernetically enhanced collective of various species that assimilate other races into their collective. The only difference between the Borg and the Baha'i is that the Borg do it forcefully whereas the Baha'i do it verbally.

We also see Pancho Frijoles taking an eisegetical approach. He begins with Baha'i doctrine and ends up with Baha'i doctrinal concepts in his reading of the Bible. When you read man's doctrine into scripture, you can man's doctrine out of it. Part of the eisegetical process for them is to esteem science (and "reason"?) as higher than what God has shared with us. Jesus came to share what the Father has given him to share. Jesus came as promised in scripture and thus is anchored in what God promised back to Abraham and even to Adam. Pancho Frijoles shares what Baha'u'llah gave him.