God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[mikesw]

I have two comments on this statement

1. The condition set in 1 John 1:7 that allows the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin is NOT the belief in blood atonement, but “to walk in the light” and to have “fellowship with one another”. Again, again and again, creeds do not save, but walking the path of love.
2. The “blood” here, is as metaphorical as “the water” and “the word” that Jesus uses to cleanse the believers: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:25,26)

So, based on Epehesians 5:25,26, how does Jesus cleanse sins? With blood, water or the word?
The answer is all of them (symbolically) and none of them (literally)!
Literally speaking, the blood does not cleanse, the water of baptism does not cleanse, and the word does not cleanse. But if we are genuinely repent and confess our sins, we are cleansed by blood, water, word, and any other symbol.

the big problem in this view is that the reality is that one must repent and come to Christ to receive the forgiveness. The ultimate basis is faith is toward the God who exists and can forgive -- this is through the blood of Christ. If you do not know the true God and have faith toward God --in who he is and what he has done -- you live in a deception and do not have the forgiveness you wish you had. That is darkness to say the blood is metaphorical and is to deny the vary basis of justification, of the sacrifice for your sin. Especially for someone who has studied scripture, this is an affront to God and becomes selective choice of what you accept of the testimony of God, essentially calling God a liar or denying what he has done. Such a view is not a matter of doctrinal differences but rather is the denial of the true God. The doctrine espoused here is based on the perception that one can create his own way of forgiveness with God.

 

[Johann]

the big problem in this view is that the reality is that one must repent and come to Christ to receive the forgiveness. The ultimate basis is faith is toward the God who exists and can forgive -- this is through the blood of Christ. If you do not know the true God and have faith toward God --in who he is and what he has done -- you live in a deception and do not have the forgiveness you wish you had. That is darkness to say the blood is metaphorical and is to deny the vary basis of justification, of the sacrifice for your sin. Especially for someone who has studied scripture, this is an affront to God and becomes selective choice of what you accept of the testimony of God, essentially calling God a liar or denying what he has done. Such a view is not a matter of doctrinal differences but rather is the denial of the true God. The doctrine espoused here is based on the perception that one can create his own way of forgiveness with God.

Thanks, @mikesw. I've shared Scriptures with @Pancho Frijoles regarding the ongoing efficacy of the shed blood of JESUS CHRIST, but it seems he tends to avoid engaging with them.




Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?





How much worse punishment, -- The word for “punishment” in the N.T. is in every other passage kolasis, which means “remedial punishment.” Here the word (though the difference is not observed by most translations) is timoria which means “vengeance” or “retribution.”

(Some think the comparison reference here is to the 'punishment' or 'persecution' of the Jewish Christian by the Jewish hierarchy, even when such a one claims to have turned back to the Jewish system!)

The worse punishment is reserved for people who reject the "living God" Heb_3:12; Heb_10:31; Heb_12:22.

(Again, some see this as indicating degrees of punishment. cf. Luk_12:47, Mat_11:21; Mat_11:22-24.)

do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned [trampled] the Son of God, -- In the ancient middle east one of the gestures used to show contempt for someone was to “lift up the foot” against or toward them (cf. Psa_41:9). To walk on top of someone or something was a more extreme gesture showing utter contempt and scorn (cf. 2Ki_9:33; Isa_14:19; Mic_7:10; Zec_10:5). Such contempt demonstrates a complete rejection of Christ as Savior and Lord.

and has profaned -- To reckon Christ’s blood as something "profane" or “common” is the same thing as saying that it is unclean or defiled (see note on Heb_9:13) and implies that Christ was a sinner and a blemished sacrifice. Such thinking is truly blasphemous

the blood of the covenant -- Christ’s death inaugurated or ratified the New Covenant, Mat_26:27-28. cf. Heb_13:20.

by which he was sanctified -- The "he" is probably a reference to Christ and that his work on the cross set him apart unto God, Joh_17:19.

and has outraged [insulted] the Spirit of grace? -- The same title is used in Zec_12:10. Rejecting Christ insults the Spirit who worked through Him (Mat_12:31-32) and who testifies of Him (Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8-11).

J.

 

[Johann]

So, based on Epehesians 5:25,26, how does Jesus cleanse sins? With blood, water or the word?
The answer is all of them (symbolically) and none of them (literally)!
Literally speaking, the blood does not cleanse, the water of baptism does not cleanse, and the word does not cleanse. But if we are genuinely repent and confess our sins, we are cleansed by blood, water, word, and any other symbol.

You are beginning to make statements that come dangerously close to being blasphemous. If not already @Pancho Frijoles!


The Cleansing Power of Jesus’ Blood
The Bible explicitly states that Jesus' blood cleanses believers from sin-not symbolically but literally in a spiritual sense.

Hebrews 9:22 (Lexham Bible): "And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

This shows that the shedding of blood is essential for forgiveness.

1 John 1:7: "But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

This verse directly states that Jesus’ blood cleanses us from sin, indicating an actual, spiritual reality, not merely symbolism.

The cleansing is spiritual and applies to the believer’s guilt and sin debt before God. Jesus' sacrifice fulfills the Old Testament typology of atonement, where the blood of animals was used symbolically to point to the ultimate reality of Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice (Hebrews 10:10-14).

2. The Role of Water
Water, often associated with baptism, serves as an outward sign of inward spiritual realities. Baptism itself does not cleanse sin; instead, it symbolizes the washing away of sins through faith in Christ.

1 Peter 3:21: "And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the body but the appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Peter clarifies that the act of baptism does not cleanse physically or spiritually by itself. Rather, it is a symbolic act of appealing to God in faith, based on Jesus' resurrection.

Furthermore, the Bible makes clear that salvation is not by works, which includes rituals like baptism. Salvation comes through faith in Christ’s finished work (Ephesians 2:8-9).

3. The Word as Cleansing

Ephesians 5:25-26 says, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for her, in order that he might sanctify her by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word."

Here, the Word is the message of the gospel and truth of God’s Word, which plays a role in sanctifying and purifying believers.

The cleansing by the Word refers to how God’s truth convicts, sanctifies, and transforms believers (John 17:17: "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth").

However, this process works in conjunction with the atoning blood of Christ, which is foundational for justification and reconciliation with God.

4. Literal vs. Symbolic

Your claim that the blood, water, and Word are all "symbolic" but none are "literal" misunderstands biblical language.

The Bible frequently uses physical terms (like blood) to describe spiritual realities. While the physical shedding of Christ's blood was a historical event, its cleansing power is an actual spiritual transaction. The Bible does not support the idea that these are merely symbolic gestures.

Revelation 7:14: "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The image of "washing robes in blood" is not symbolic in the sense of being meaningless. It represents a real spiritual cleansing of sin through Christ’s sacrificial death.

5. Genuine Repentance and Confession

Your argument claims that if someone repents and confesses, they are cleansed by any symbol. This is contrary to Scripture.

While repentance and confession are necessary responses to God’s grace, they are not the basis of cleansing.

The cleansing itself comes solely through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, so that he will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Confession is the means by which we receive the cleansing, but the cleansing comes through Jesus' sacrifice. Repentance does not cleanse us; it is the act of turning toward the One who cleanses.

6. Summary of Biblical Teaching

The blood of Jesus cleanses from sin-this is a literal spiritual reality, not merely symbolic (Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7).

Water (baptism) symbolizes the cleansing of sin but does not itself cleanse (1 Peter 3:21).

The Word of God plays a role in sanctification and transformation but works in conjunction with the atoning sacrifice of Christ (Ephesians 5:26; John 17:17).

Genuine repentance and confession are responses to God’s grace, but the cleansing power lies in the person and work of Jesus, specifically in His shed blood.


Your assertion that the blood, water, and Word are merely symbolic and do not literally cleanse is inconsistent with Scripture. The Bible teaches that Jesus’ blood is the essential, literal means by which believers are cleansed from sin in a spiritual sense. Water and the Word complement this cleansing, but they do not replace or diminish the foundational role of the blood of Christ.

Repentance and confession are necessary responses, but they are not the source of cleansing; only the sacrifice of Jesus is. This is the central truth of the gospel.
Heb 10:26 A Serious Warning Against Continuing Deliberate Sin
¶ For if [*Here “if ” is supplied as a component of the conditional genitive absolute participle (“keep on sinning”)] we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know the one who said,
“Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” [A quotation from Deut 32:35]

and again,
“The Lord will judge his people.” [A quotation from Deut 32:36]

Heb 10:31 ¶ It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 10:32 ¶ But remember the former days in which, after you [*Here “after ” is supplied as a component of the temporal participle (“were enlightened”)] were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings,
Heb 10:33 sometimes being publicly exposed both to insults and to afflictions, and sometimes becoming sharers with those who were treated in this way.
Heb 10:34 For you both sympathized with the prisoners and put up with the seizure of your belongings with joy because you [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“knew”) which is understood as causal] knew that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
Heb 10:35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has great reward.
Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, in order that after you [*Here “after ” is supplied as a component of the temporal participle (“have done”)] have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
Heb 10:37 For yet
“a very, very little while ,
and the one who is coming will come and will not delay.
Heb 10:38 But my righteous one will live by faith,
and if he shrinks back, my soul is not well pleased with him.” [A quotation from Hab 2:3–4]

Heb 10:39 ¶ But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of our souls.
Heb_10:26

10:26–39 This section contains the fourth warning (compare Heb_2:1-4; Heb_3:12-13; Heb_6:4-8), which focuses on the rejection of the truth of Christ’s work (vv. 26–31). The author then shifts to a message of encouragement (vv. 32–39).

For if we go on sinning deliberately -- Refers to sins performed willingly or knowingly. The particular sins identified here include disdaining God’s Son and counting the blood of the new covenant as ordinary or profane (Heb_10:29). Such sins indicate that one has fallen away from the living God (Heb_3:12).

after receiving the knowledge of the truth, -- This refers to learning about the good news of Jesus (see Eph_1:13; 1Ti_2:4; 1Ti_4:3; 2Ti_2:25; 2Ti_3:7). Other NT texts describe the Christian message (the "gospel") as the truth (see Gal_5:7; 2Th_2:12; Jas_3:14; Jas_5:19; 1Pe_1:22).

there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, -- By rejecting the work of Christ one has rejected the only sacrifice that can cleanse him from sin and bring him into God’s presence. To turn away from that sacrifice leaves him with no saving alternative for they have trampled under foot the offer of mercy in Christ and there is no salvation in any other (Act_4:12).
If the Hebrew Christians revert to the Jewish sacrificial system, they go back to sacrifices that cannot put away sin (Heb_10:4).

Just in case you think it is solely for the "Hebrew Christians" think again.

See Jas_5:19 note on APOSTASY


Careful @Pancho Frijoles

J.

 

[Johann]

I have two comments on this statement

1. The condition set in 1 John 1:7 that allows the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin is NOT the belief in blood atonement, but “to walk in the light” and to have “fellowship with one another”. Again, again and again, creeds do not save, but walking the path of love.
2. The “blood” here, is as metaphorical as “the water” and “the word” that Jesus uses to cleanse the believers: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:25,26)

So, based on Epehesians 5:25,26, how does Jesus cleanse sins? With blood, water or the word?
The answer is all of them (symbolically) and none of them (literally)!
Literally speaking, the blood does not cleanse, the water of baptism does not cleanse, and the word does not cleanse. But if we are genuinely repent and confess our sins, we are cleansed by blood, water, word, and any other symbol.

Thousands of years before scientists understood the complex and extraordinary life-sustaining properties of blood, the Bible informed that “the life of every creature is in its blood” (Leviticus 17:14, NLT). In ancient Israel, blood was not only a metaphor or symbol for life; it was equivalent to life itself. In most occurrences where blood was shed in Scripture, it meant that life had ended. To remove the blood is to terminate life.

In Leviticus chapter 17, God gives instructions regarding sacrifices and offerings, particularly on the proper slaughtering of animals. The people of Israel were to bring each animal to the tabernacle entrance for the priest to offer. The blood of the animal was never to be treated as common food; it belonged to God, who is the giver of life (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:4; Psalm 139:13). Thus, the blood of animals had to be drained and offered to God on the altar.

Blood was God’s ordained means of effecting atonement: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life” (Leviticus 17:11). Atonement for sin was achieved by sacrificing an animal’s life in substitution for one’s own life. The shedding of blood was the most critical element—it was the blood of the guiltless substitute offered on the altar that served as payment for the people’s sins (Leviticus 16:15).

Through God’s ordained system of sacrifice in the Old Testament, the Lord laid the groundwork for a message that would not be fully grasped until later: “The old system under the law of Moses was only a shadow, a dim preview of the good things to come, not the good things themselves. The sacrifices under that system were repeated again and again, year after year, but they were never able to provide perfect cleansing for those who came to worship” (Hebrews 10:1, NLT).

The full meaning of “the life is in the blood” would only be revealed in Jesus Christ: “That is why, when Christ came into the world, he said to God, ‘You did not want animal sacrifices or sin offerings. But you have given me a body to offer’” (Hebrews 10:5, NLT). It has always been God’s will for humans to be made right with God by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time (Hebrews 10:10). In the Old Testament, the priests offered animals’ blood over and over again, but this repeated shedding of blood never permanently removed the curse of sin (Hebrews 10:11).

When Jesus came and offered up His life—pouring out His blood on the cross—the perfect sacrifice had finally been made: “Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins” (Hebrews 9:14, NLT).

All those from times past, present, and future who put their faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ, are made right with God: “For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus” (Romans 3:25–26, NLT). The apostle John saw a future multitude of believers in heaven who “have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.” They have been purified from sin and “clothed in white” (Revelation 7:13–14).

Because of the Old Testament system, Christ’s followers could comprehend what He was doing when He shed His blood on the cross. And today we can better see what His sacrifice means. Just as physical life is in the blood of animals, eternal life is in the blood of Jesus Christ. Physically, our existence depends on blood to sustain life, and, spiritually, our lives depend on the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10; 1 John 1:7; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; Hebrews 9:22). Through those ancient sacrifices repeatedly offered in the Old Testament, we are led to appreciate that death—the shedding of blood—has always been the cost of securing eternal life for sinful humans.

Believers are cleansed, forgiven, and made right with God by the blood of the Lamb, God’s guiltless substitute. Oh, how astounding it is that God would shed His own blood to pay the penalty for our sins!

What is the significance that life is in the blood (Leviticus 17:14)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that the life is in the blood? What is the meaning of Leviticus 17:14?

www.gotquestions.org

J.

 

[Johann]

The condition set in 1 John 1:7 that allows the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin is NOT the belief in blood atonement,

This statement is incorrect @Pancho Frijoles

let's see what your faith teach--

The Bahá'í Faith rejects the Christian concept of blood atonement, offering instead a symbolic and spiritual interpretation of Jesus Christ's life, death, and mission. According to Bahá'í teachings, the death of Jesus was not a literal payment for humanity's sins but a profound example of self-sacrifice aimed at inspiring humanity to spiritual growth and moral transformation. Bahá'ís emphasize that forgiveness and reconciliation with God do not require a blood sacrifice; instead, they are accessible through divine grace, repentance, and adherence to spiritual teachings.

Abdu’l-Bahá, a key figure in the Bahá'í Faith, explained that Christ's death was meant to exemplify ultimate love and devotion to humanity. His sacrifice served to elevate human awareness of divine teachings, rather than acting as a substitutionary atonement for sin.

Bahá'í theology holds that all prophets and divine messengers undergo suffering and sacrifice to guide humanity and to demonstrate God’s love and commitment to human advancement. Jesus’ willingness to endure persecution and crucifixion is seen as an act to promote unity, moral awakening, and spiritual enlightenment among people, rather than fulfilling a specific demand for justice from God through bloodshed.

In Bahá'í belief, the atonement is interpreted as a metaphor for personal transformation rather than a literal transaction.

Sin is understood as imperfection or disobedience to divine principles, and the prophets, including Jesus, were sent to educate humanity and lead individuals toward spiritual perfection.

The idea that forgiveness requires a blood sacrifice is seen as inconsistent with the Bahá'í view of God’s infinite mercy and justice. The Faith also regards all religious founders as equal manifestations of God's will, rejecting the exclusivity of Jesus' role in human salvation as understood in traditional Christian theology.

These views emphasize spiritual symbolism over literal interpretation, stressing the transformative power of moral and spiritual development rather than the necessity of physical sacrifices for divine forgiveness.

For further insights into Bahá'í teachings on this topic, sources such as Bahá’í Library and BahaiTeachings.org provide additional perspectives.
BAHÁ'Í LIBRARY ONLINE
BAHAI JOURNAL
BAHAITEACHINGS.ORG<<<This is incorrect to the biblical teachings as it stands written in my Bible
.


The statement is incorrect because it misunderstands the nature of the condition mentioned in 1 John 1:7.

What Does 1 John 1:7 Actually Say?

The verse reads:
"But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin" (Lexham Bible).

The condition for the cleansing of sin in this passage is "walking in the light as He is in the light." However, this does not negate the foundational role of Jesus’ atoning blood. Instead, it describes the life of faith that reflects a genuine relationship with God, made possible by the work of Christ.

The Role of Belief in Blood Atonement
The Bible consistently teaches that the cleansing of sin is directly tied to the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:22 affirms, “Apart from the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.”

Belief in Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection is fundamental to salvation and cleansing (Romans 3:25; John 3:16).

1 John 1:7 assumes that those walking in the light are already believers who have faith in Christ’s atonement. Without that belief, one cannot even begin to walk in the light, as walking in the light presupposes being in fellowship with God through Christ (John 8:12).

Walking in the Light vs. Earning Forgiveness

Walking in the light is not a means to earn forgiveness but an indicator of genuine faith. Those who walk in the light demonstrate they are already in Christ, and it is through His blood that they are continually cleansed.

Fellowship with one another is a result of walking in the light, not a condition for being cleansed.

Biblical Harmony
Other passages make it clear that salvation and cleansing are entirely dependent on Jesus’ atoning work, not human effort:

Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not by works that we did in righteousness, but according to his mercy."

Conclusion
While walking in the light and fellowship with one another are critical aspects of Christian living, they are not substitutes for or conditions independent of belief in the atoning blood of Jesus.

Cleansing from sin is rooted in His sacrificial death and resurrection, with walking in the light serving as evidence of a life transformed by that belief.

The correct, biblical teaching from Scriptures, not a denial of the blood atonement according to your faith.

J.

 

[civic]

Dear civic

It is not about receiving the message concerning Christ (the things that are said about Christ) but about practicing the Message of Christ (what He wants us to do)
Many Evangelical pastors have misled their congregations making them think that if they accept as valid certain things that are said concerning Christ (who He is, what he did) then they are saved. This is an error: the wickest man could give us a great lecture on who Christ is and what He has done, and confess it as Lord. Do you agree?

So, “Christ was crucified” is only a fact, but salvation is about…

• “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20)
• “knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we should no longer be slaves to sin. (Rom 6:6)
• Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
• If any man would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. (Mark 8:34)

you are diverting from the blood of Christ and how its essential and bringing up other topics.

Blood is arguably one of the most important symbols of both the Old and New Testament. From the very first account of fratricide in the OT, blood plays a significant role in both the literal and symbolic sense:

• The LORD said, ‘What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. (Gen 4:10-11)

The imagery is vivid – the personified blood of Abel cries out to God for justice. Justice in turn requires restitution. In the covenant that God makes with Noah and his descendants, God declares that when human blood is shed, restitution must also be made in blood:

• ‘Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind. (Gen 9:6)

This principle of blood for blood or “life for life” is key to the system of justice and the rituals of atonement in the Old Testament. Blood represents both the life that is taken, as well as the life that is offered for the atonement of sin.

• Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution – life for life. (Lev 24:17-18)

Figuratively, blood represents death, or sin and separation from God, on the one hand; and new life, or restitution and reconciliation with God, on the other. And just as sin can be said to leave the stain of blood, the blood that is offered in atonement washes away the stain of sin.

• But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. (Is 59:2-3)
• “He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites. (Lev 7: 18-19)

But in the NT, the blood of Christ represents both the sin and the offering, both the life that is taken and the life that is given and offered for the forgiveness of sins. His blood, alone unstained by sin, reconciles all who sin with God. Unlike the blood of Abel that cried out for justice, the blood of Christ opens the way for God's mercy. It is the blood of the new covenant and brings to fulfillment God’s ultimate vision of peace for mankind.

• But you have come to… Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel’s does. (Heb 12:22-24)
• For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6) Nhi @ Biblical Hermenuetics Stack Exchange

Lets examine more in the N.T about the Blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

A Walk through Hebrews

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ​

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. Notice there is no punishment anywhere above for sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

We see below how the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51- the blood on the doorposts saved the firsborn

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

you are diverting from the blood of Christ and how its essential and bringing up other topics.

Good morning, civic

Thanks for a very comprehensive and well written post.

You may think I am diverting or "bringing up other topics", but for me talking about your own crucifixion is the core of the matter.

We can debate on whether Jesus paid for our debts in a sort of substitutionary atonement (the Christian view), or whether He underwent martyrdom to inspire our reconciliation with God (the non-Christian view). However, regardless on whether we believe in A or B, it is up to us to crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new life.

What I am fighting here is the supposition that a man must confess or assent to the substitutionary atonement of Christ, and his physical resurrection, as a requirement to be forgiven, crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new man.

I am convinced that the grace of God can make the Sikh of our story (or the 25 million of Sikhs worldwide) crucify the old man and be resurrected to a new life without having to convert to Christianism. My conviction is supported by the reality we observe in the lives of many of those Sikhs. A reality that cannot and should not be denied, lest we attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to "phycological and cultural factors", and their spiritual transformation to an "outward morality". Our brother @Johann did that, and I hope he will end up understanding that the Holy Spirit cannot be mimicked.

 

[mikesw]

Good morning, civic

Thanks for a very comprehensive and well written post.

You may think I am diverting or "bringing up other topics", but for me talking about your own crucifixion is the core of the matter.

We can debate on whether Jesus paid for our debts in a sort of substitutionary atonement (the Christian view), or whether He underwent martyrdom to inspire our reconciliation with God (the non-Christian view). However, regardless on whether we believe in A or B, it is up to us to crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new life.

What I am fighting here is the supposition that a man must confess or assent to the substitutionary atonement of Christ, and his physical resurrection, as a requirement to be forgiven, crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new man.

I am convinced that the grace of God can make the Sikh of our story (or the 25 million of Sikhs worldwide) crucify the old man and be resurrected to a new life without having to convert to Christianism. My conviction is supported by the reality we observe in the lives of many of those Sikhs. A reality that cannot and should not be denied, lest we attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to "phycological and cultural factors", and their spiritual transformation to an "outward morality". Our brother @Johann did that, and I hope he will end up understanding that the Holy Spirit cannot be mimicked.

You are rejecting Christian completely. Your religion cannot be inconclusive by denying the very essence of what Christ has done. Likewise, like freemasonry is set against Christianity. Your religion then mocks Christianity and God who sent his son. This highlights why you reject God's essence in the Trinity. So all you can do is try to divert Christians from the true faith as well as deny other people from enjoying the benefits in Christ. You even get unitarians agreeing with you -- which may not even be worse than where they were before you chimed in.
But Pancho Frijoles probably will not see this.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Belief in Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection is fundamental to salvation and cleansing (Romans 3:25; John 3:16).

No, the texts you provide don't support your view.

• Romans 3:25 does not say that people must believe that in order to be forgiven. It just describes what happened. Paul knew that people had been forgiven without such belief. He himself quotes the psalmist, who trusted God's forgiveness centuries ago without any reference whatsoever to the substitutionary atonement of a future Messiah.
• John 3:16 says believe in Him (the Son), not believe in his blood atonement and physical resurrection.

1 John 1:7 assumes that those walking in the light are already believers who have faith in Christ’s atonement. Without that belief, one cannot even begin to walk in the light, as walking in the light presupposes being in fellowship with God through Christ (John 8:12).

No, my brother. That presupposition is incorrect.
In the Bible the figure "walking in the light" is commonly presented without any reference to a Messiah that would perform blood atonement. Look for Job 29:3, Psalm 56:13, Psalm 89:15. Isaiah 2:5, Isaiah 50:10

Indeed, Jesus explained "walking in the light" as following him, not believing his deity, substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection.
“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12)
And who is a follower of Jesus? "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

Walking in the light is not a means to earn forgiveness but an indicator of genuine faith.

Sure, but it is a means to know that we are already profiting from the blood of Christ. That we are getting our sins cleansed.
Remember the grammatical analysis of the Greek text in that verse. It starts with ἐὰν = if, conditional particle. It can also be translated as "whenever". Whenever we walk in the light, we show "fellowship to one another" and our sins are being cleansed.
That's why the Bible states: "Above all things, have unfailing love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8)

Could you please explain how is that loving one another covers a multitude of sins?

Those who walk in the light demonstrate they are already in Christ, and it is through His blood that they are continually cleansed.

So, according to your own statement, if a Sikh or a Muslim are walking in the light, it is because they are already in Christ and his blood is continually cleansing them. Sounds good to me.
I hope you will not reply: "Such light is not really light... it is a combination of psychological and cultural factors and an outward morality". That answer would be a denial of the reality of the Spirit.

Fellowship with one another is a result of walking in the light, not a condition for being cleansed.

Fellowship with one another shows that our sinful nature is being transformed. Do you agree? So, everytime you see a Sikh or Muslim living a life of fellowship with one another, you know that they are walking in the light, and being transformed.

Biblical Harmony
Other passages make it clear that salvation and cleansing are entirely dependent on Jesus’ atoning work, not human effort:

Ephesians 1:7: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

The redemption through his blood is a gift from God. This is why the verse says "according to the riches of his grace". It is not an achievement for having provided the right answers to a quiz on substitutionary atonement. If it were not by his grace, then billions of human beings would be burning in hell because they never learn about, believed or understood what a substitutionary atonement is. Furthermore, millions of Christians would be burning because even if their churches or official creeds stated the belief in a substitutionary atonement, they as individuals never understood it, or were interested in understanding it.

Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not by works that we did in righteousness, but according to his mercy."

Titus 3:5 shows that we are saved by his mercy. So, we don't earn salvation by providing the correct answers to a quiz on Theology. Orthodoxy does not save us. So, your claim is not supported by this verse.

Conclusion
While walking in the light and fellowship with one another are critical aspects of Christian living, they are not substitutes for or conditions independent of belief in the atoning blood of Jesus.

I respectfully differ. Your conclusion is incorrect, because it is based on incorrect premises, as I have shown above in this post.

Cleansing from sin is rooted in His sacrificial death and resurrection, with walking in the light serving as evidence of a life transformed by that belief.

Doctrinal beliefs do not transform lives.
Otherwise, any demon could become a saint, as he/she can uphold the same beliefs you have.
It is the grace of God that transform our lives, regardless on the validity or invalidity of many of our beliefs.

 

[mikesw]

Titus 3:5 shows that we are saved by his mercy. So, we don't earn salvation by providing the correct answers to a quiz on Theology. Orthodoxy does not save us. So, your claim is not supported by this verse.

I respectfully differ. Your conclusion is incorrect, because it is based on incorrect premises, as I have shown above in this post.


Doctrinal beliefs do not transform lives.
Otherwise, any demon could become a saint, as he/she can uphold the same beliefs you have.
It is the grace of God that transform our lives, regardless on the validity or invalidity of many of our beliefs.

Pancho Frijoles' doctrine is like buying a sports car that has no engine. You pay lots of money so other people see you have this great car. But all you can do is look at it. The details that these doctrines address are the engine of the car. But Pancho Frijoles is partially right by using a partial concept of faith when he says demons could believe these doctrines. However, this belief is not applying faith toward God. Faith in the Christian sense refers to trust. That trust has to be in the person who brings forth the promised results. But the other religions do not point anyone to the true God nor to the true promises -- which are what the doctrines do. But most people will follow the doctrine of demons rather than the teaching of Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in God's grace (mercy).

One of the symbols of this grace is the blood of Christ.
Other symbols have been the blood of animals, the water (Flood, opening of Red Sea, healing of Naaman, baptism), the bread (manna, the bread of the Lord Supper), the fire (live coals for Isaian's lips, Pentecost, baptism in the Holy Spirit), the word and the light (numerous instances).

The Bible, through the 21 passages that address the topic of forgiveness and that I have referred to as "The Core Block" do not make any mentioning whatsoever to the need of a blood atonement to get forgiveness of sins.
Did God change his terms and conditions overnight?
Jesus probably died in the afternoon of April 3, 30 AD.
Does this mean that there was one way to forgiveness between Adam and April 3, AD, and then a different way from April 4 30 AD onwards?
If that change was planned, why Jesus didn't spend those 3 years announcing the change in plans? Moreover, why did He continue to present forgiveness in the same terms of God's FREE mercy?

 

[mikesw]

The forgiveness of sins is found only in God's grace (mercy).
One of the symbols of this grace is the blood of Christ.

The Bible, through the 21 verses that address the topic of forgiveness and that I have referred to as "The Core Block" do not make any mentioning whatsoever to the need of a blood atonement to get forgiveness of sins.
Did God change his terms and conditions overnight?
Jesus probably died in the afternoon of April 3, 30 AD.
Does this mean that there was one way to forgiveness between Adam and April 3, AD, and then a different way from April 4 30 AD onwards?

Pancho Frijoles does not realize that faith toward God has always been the true way. It was not through the Mosaic system but some could still come to faith toward God anyhow. We see the example of David being forgiven because his heart and trust was toward God. The actual reconciliation of the saints of old was through Christ's death and resurrection. The Old Testament was pointing to this time of redemption in Christ. So it is ignorant to treat the overture of the opera as equal to the opera itself.

 

[civic]

The forgiveness of sins is found only in God's grace (mercy).

One of the symbols of this grace is the blood of Christ. Other symbols have been the blood of animals, the water (Flood, opening of Red Sea, healing of Naaman, baptism), the bread (manna, the bread of the Lord Supper), the fire (live coals for Isaian's lips, Pentecost, baptism in the Holy Spirit)., the word (numerous instances).

The Bible, through the 21 verses that address the topic of forgiveness and that I have referred to as "The Core Block" do not make any mentioning whatsoever to the need of a blood atonement to get forgiveness of sins.
Did God change his terms and conditions overnight?
Jesus probably died in the afternoon of April 3, 30 AD.
Does this mean that there was one way to forgiveness between Adam and April 3, AD, and then a different way from April 4 30 AD onwards?

Read my OT quotes that affirm the NT quotes. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Biblical atonement 101, Christianity 101, Bible Truth 101, Jesus teaching 101, the Apostles teaching 101, essential doctrine 101, gospel 101, Salvation 101.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Read my OT quotes that affirm the NT quotes. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Biblical atonement 101, Christianity 101, Bible Truth 101, Jesus teaching 101, the Apostles teaching 101, essential doctrine 101, gospel 101, Salvation 101.

Hope this helps !!!

I did read them, my friend. My apologies for not having made more specific comments on them.

The same author that says: "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22) also says, few verses later: But in those sacrifices there is an annual reminder of sins. For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Hebrews 10:3,4)

So, what do we have? Is blood shedding mandatory or not for forgiveness of sins?
Of course not. Animal sacrifices were a symbolic REMINDER of sins and its effect on innocent people (and the creation)... and as many other ritual commandments, they were given as if they were mandatory, because Israel lived in a theocracy.

If Israelites really needed the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins...

• Why don't we find in the Bible any prophet urging people to build hundreds of tabernacles across the territory, so that common people could have their dialy sins forgiven?
• Why don't we find kings or judges building those hundreds of tabernacles?
• Why were the Ninevites not requested to offer animal sacrifices?
• Why did the Jews exiled in Babylon have to return to Jerusalen to build a temple, instead of building several modest tabernacles in Babylon? (They were not always under persecution).
• Why Jews in the Diaspora, in places as distant as Rome or Ethiopia, had to travel thousands of kilometers to the Temple of Jerusalem, instead of building a tabernacle in their own town, to atone for their daily sins?
• Why did God cleansed Isaiah's sin with live coals instead of asking him to go to the Temple?
• But most fundamentally, Why God says in the Bible that He didn't require sacrifices, but mercy and a contrite heart?

 

[synergy]

Good morning, civic

Thanks for a very comprehensive and well written post.

You may think I am diverting or "bringing up other topics", but for me talking about your own crucifixion is the core of the matter.

We can debate on whether Jesus paid for our debts in a sort of substitutionary atonement (the Christian view), or whether He underwent martyrdom to inspire our reconciliation with God (the non-Christian view). However, regardless on whether we believe in A or B, it is up to us to crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new life.

What I am fighting here is the supposition that a man must confess or assent to the substitutionary atonement of Christ, and his physical resurrection, as a requirement to be forgiven, crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new man.

I am convinced that the grace of God can make the Sikh of our story (or the 25 million of Sikhs worldwide) crucify the old man and be resurrected to a new life without having to convert to Christianism. My conviction is supported by the reality we observe in the lives of many of those Sikhs. A reality that cannot and should not be denied, lest we attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to "phycological and cultural factors", and their spiritual transformation to an "outward morality". Our brother @Johann did that, and I hope he will end up understanding that the Holy Spirit cannot be mimicked.

Islam's concept of sin and salvation is fundamentally different from Christianity, particularly regarding the nature of sin and its consequences. Here's a more detailed explanation of the Islamic view:

1. Sin in Islam

In Islam, humans are not considered to inherit death as a consequence Adam's sin. Instead, Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden of Eden is seen as a mistake for which they repented and were forgiven by Allah.

Every human is believed to be born in a state of fitrah (original purity) and is accountable only for their own actions.

Sin in Islam is viewed as a deviation from Allah's guidance, and humans are seen as capable of choosing between right and wrong.

2. Death in Islam

Death is not regarded as a punishment for Adam’s sin but as a natural part of life, a transition to the afterlife.

The Quran emphasizes that all souls will die and then be resurrected for judgment (Quran 3:185).

3. Salvation in Islam

Salvation is achieved through personal effort: sincere repentance (tauba), faith in Allah, and righteous deeds.

Following the Five Pillars of Islam (Shahada, Salah, Zakat, Sawm, and Hajj) and adhering to Sharia law are essential for living a life pleasing to Allah.

On the Day of Judgment, Allah will weigh a person’s good and bad deeds, determining their eternal destiny.

Contrasting with Christianity

In Christianity:

Humanity's inheritance of death is a direct consequence of Adam’s fall (Romans 5:12).

Jesus Christ is the central solution to this problem. His sacrificial death and resurrection provide the means for forgiveness and eternal life, not through human effort but through faith in His finished work (Ephesians 2:8–9).

The Christian hope is rooted in grace, not merit, distinguishing it sharply from Islam’s emphasis on works-based salvation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Christian hope is rooted in grace, not merit,

I agree, but I wish your statement were true for all Christians.
Some Christians, though, believe that salvation is rooted in merit.
The merit of analyzing carefully the pros and cons of a particular debate on, say, the Trinity, to arrive to a conclusion.

I don't reject the Trinity because I am wicked, and rejecting it allows me to keep sinning... or because it allows me to make financial profit... or because it brings me more popularity or social recognition.
I reject the Trinity out of my intellectual convictions, and my inner, spiritual appeal to simplicity. So, if the Trinity is true and I have to adhere to that belief, man, it is going to cost me a lot of time and effort... only to end up admitting that I don't understand the Trinity. So, if I come to believe in the Trinity, you would have to give me a medal to the merit... and if I need that to be saved, that would be a merit-based salvation.

distinguishing it sharply from Islam’s emphasis on works-based salvation.

Not at all.
Islam is based on the conviction that our works are NOTHING. It is the Mercy of Allah, The Compassionate, who accepts them.
That's the essence of the term and concept "Islam". It means "submission". We are nothing compared to Allah. He is our everything, the source of our value and our lives. It is because of his grace that we survive and prosper. That's why we submit.
Visualize Jesus in Gethsemani submitting his individual will to God's will. Visualize Him prostrated with his forehead to the floor, as the gospel says.
That is submission. That is the true meaning of Islam.

 

[Johann]

I did read them, my friend. My apologies for not having made more specific comments on them.

The same author that says: "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." (Hebrews 9:22) also says, few verses later: But in those sacrifices there is an annual reminder of sins. For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Hebrews 10:3,4)

So, what do we have? Is blood shedding mandatory or not for forgiveness of sins?
Of course not. Animal sacrifices were a symbolic REMINDER of sins and its effect on innocent people (and the creation)... and as many other ritual commandments, they were given as if they were mandatory, because Israel lived in a theocracy.

If Israelites really needed the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins...

• Why don't we find in the Bible any prophet urging people to build hundreds of tabernacles across the territory, so that common people could have their dialy sins forgiven?
• Why don't we find kings or judges building those hundreds of tabernacles?
• Why Jews in the Diaspora had to travel from thousands of kilometers to the Temple of Jerusalem, instead of building a tabernacle in their own city, to atone for their daily sins?
• But most fundamentally, Why God says in the Bible that He didn't require sacrifices, but mercy and a contrite heart?

You do not offer any counter rebuttals [you think you do] against the clear Scriptures and now you take the position of --

Shabir Ally – Known for engaging in debates with Christian apologists, focusing on interfaith dialogue and theological discussions.

Ali Ataie – Specializes in comparative religion and frequently addresses issues concerning the Quran and the Bible.

Mohammed Hijab and Hamza Tzortzis – Active members of the Sapience Institute, emphasizing philosophical arguments, particularly in response to atheism and secularism.

Daniel Haqiqatjou – Founder of the Muslim Skeptic, focusing on critiques of liberal ideologies and modern societal issues from an Islamic perspective.

Farid Responds and Ijaz Ahmed – Known for addressing textual criticism of the Quran and engaging in debates with Christian scholars.
Omar Suleiman – An imam and scholar, prominent for his work with the Yaqeen Institute, addressing social justice issues and theological questions.

These apologists operate through debates, lectures, and online platforms, using a mix of theological, philosophical, and social arguments to engage with audiences and critics of Islam. Many work in specialized fields like interfaith dialogue, philosophy, or historical studies, ensuring a broad scope of engagement with both Muslim and non-Muslim audiences.

For further insights, you can explore their content on platforms like Sapience Institute, Yaqeen Institute, and other independent channels. For example, see the Yaqeen Institute's resources on Islamic apologetics for foundational discussions on defending Islam intellectually
WIKIPEDIA
YAQEEN INSTITUTE FOR ISLAMIC RESEARCH
YAQEEN INSTITUTE FOR ISLAMIC RESEARCH


I’ll need to think about how best to respond and counter your writings, which go against the clear teachings of Messiah and Paul.

We also seem to face a challenge with Christians disagreeing among themselves. So, I'll need to reconsider my strategy, as your approach mirrors that of a Muslim imam debating rather than a Christian dialogue.

The Baha’i Faith and Christianity: 5 Steps to Dialogue and Understanding | Baha'i Blog

As someone who was raised with a strong Christian upbringing, the relationship between the Baha'i Faith and Christianity is something I often think about when I reflect on my own journey to becoming Baha'i. When I became Baha'i, I found myself the recipient of numerous questions and comments...

www.bahaiblog.net

Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The above links for the readers and help equip them to defend the Christian faith.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

These apologists operate through debates, lectures, and online platforms, using a mix of theological, philosophical, and social arguments to engage with audiences and critics of Islam. Many work in specialized fields like interfaith dialogue, philosophy, or historical studies, ensuring a broad scope of engagement with both Muslim and non-Muslim audiences.

This is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I invite you to debate using reason, examples from real life, illustrations, rhetorical questions, because all of that was used by the authors of the Bible as well, including Jesus Christ.

Jesus did use Scriptures, but also challenging questions like Socrates...and also hypothetical scenarios and references to things they saw on a daily basis. He also brought ancient facts (eg Ninive, Sodoma) and applied them to new situations.

So, Johann, I invite you and our readers to consider my style as an opportunity for you to learn and extract what you think is useful in your future debates with people from other religions in better terms.

For the time being, what are your responses to the questions I framed to @civic?
Are my questions relevant or not? Are they based on facts or not?
Give them a try, at least. Here they are:

• Why don't we find in the Bible any prophet urging people to build hundreds of tabernacles across the territory, so that common people could have their dialy sins forgiven?
• Why don't we find kings or judges building those hundreds of tabernacles?
• Why were the Ninevites not requested to offer animal sacrifices?
• Why did the Jews exiled in Babylon have to return to Jerusalen to build a temple, instead of building several modest tabernacles in Babylon? (They were not always under persecution).
• Why Jews in the Diaspora, in places as distant as Rome or Ethiopia, had to travel thousands of kilometers to the Temple of Jerusalem, instead of building a tabernacle in their own town, to atone for their daily sins?
• Why did God cleansed Isaiah's sin with live coals instead of asking him to go to the Temple?
• But most fundamentally, Why God says in the Bible that He didn't require sacrifices, but mercy and a contrite heart?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

On the Day of Judgment, Allah will weigh a person’s good and bad deeds, determining their eternal destiny.

"For the Son of Man shall come with His angels in the glory of His Father, and then He will repay every man according to his works."
Was this said by Jesus or by Muhammad?

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me to give to each one according to his work."
Is this written in the Book of Revelation or in the Quran?

To understand the soteriology of Judaism, Christianism, Zoroastrianism, Islam or the Baha'i Faith, we must first realize that all of these religions made salvation rely on God's grace, love, mercy.
And all of them recognize that we will be rewarded according to our works, because there is no faith without works.
Any separation between faith and works in artificial and absurd, as our friend @Studyman has already pointed out.

Many Christians boast to profess the only religion in which salvation is based on God's grace.
That's an error. Time to wake up.