God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Johann]

What does "One for Israel" say about the Lord's Supper?

THE CONTEXT OF COMMUNION MATTERS
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ONE FOR ISRAEL

@synergy




Guest blog by Greg Denham

Communion has been called “The Grand Central Station of the Christian Faith”. It’s commonly known as “the Lord’s Supper” or “Eucharist”. Unleavened matzah bread is broken and eaten, striped and pierced symbolic of the Lord’s sinless body, and a symbolic cup is received. Jesus described the cup in this way:

“My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:28)

In church history it has been identified both as an ordinance that Jesus called to be repeated on an ongoing basis (“Do this in remembrance of Me” Luke 22:19), as well as a sacrament which carries the idea of a special blessing, sanctification and proclamation of the Lord’s return.

But context of communion matters!

Context is essential to provide clarity to this “Grand Central Station of the Christian Faith” especially because communion is the central act of worship in the church. But it just so happens that the context of communion is more often what is missing.

When Jesus for example said, “Do this in remembrance of me”, what is the “this” in context?

THE PASSOVER MEAL WAS THE CONTEXT
At the time the disciples were having a ceremonial meal in the evening at the beginning of Passover, Nisan 14 on the Biblical Calendar. The meal was a kind of reenactment of the Passover story that commemorated when the Children of Israel were delivered out of enslavement in Egypt. The story of when God’s judgment passed over homes in Egypt marked by lambs’ blood. But certainly the “this” was not merely an ambiguous “last supper” prior to the crucifixion as it is often referred to.

Earlier Jesus had said:

“With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer …”

The “fervent desire” speaks of intense passion of body, soul and mind in the moment, telling us that Jesus is totally present. It would be in this context of a Passover Seder that Jesus would reveal the greatest revelation.

He would break bread but not any ordinary bread.

The Passover and Exodus is being remembered. The bread is unleavened. It is known as the “bread of affliction”.

It has to be striped and pierced and holding it would remind you of the sobering cost of the price of redemption and new beginning. It is in this context that Jesus says,

“This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

Luke 22:20 identifies that then Jesus took a third cup in the Passover meal known as the Cup of Redemption or Deliverance (that aligns with Paul’s description “He took the cup after supper”). The third cup was filled with the red color of the fruit of the vine which represented the Passover lamb. But in this context Jesus identified Himself as the ultimate Lamb of God sacrificed for our redemption saying,

“This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.”

MORE IN STORE FOR THE AGE TO COME!
Jesus then said,

“Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” (Mark 12:25)

It was another way of saying that at His second coming, when He sits on the throne of David in Jerusalem to establish the Kingdom of God on planet earth, the “Jesus and Passover connection” would continue. God’s divine redemption plan will again be celebrated, but this time in its completion!

The context of communion reveals a day like no other. It was “the day of preparation for the Passover” (John 19:14) , the Friday of Passover. This means the meal took place Thursday evening, the beginning of Nisan 14, since in Jewish tradition, the day begins when the sun goes down the night before. In the morning, that same day at 9:00 am (by Jewish reckoning still the fourteenth) Jesus would be on the cross shedding His blood inaugurating the New Covenant as John the Baptist foresaw:

“Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world!” (John 1:29)

Or as Paul penned,

“For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.” (1 Corinthians 5:7)

You can see why it would be of no surprise that historical sources report second-century churches in Paul’s region would celebrate Passover and Messiah’s crucifixion on the fourteenth of Nisan.1

Context matters! We need to fight for it! To create the space for it in our thinking! A simple adjustment in our thinking regarding the context of that day. The context of the meal. The context that Jesus revealed how the New Covenant would be inaugurated in His blood on the cross, allowing us to experience afresh the passion and purpose of the genius plan of our heavenly Father in His Son. It can even play a role in course-correcting history!

GRASPING THE TRUE CONTEXT OF PASSOVER AFFECTS OUR EXPERIENCE OF COMMUNION
Below are some examples of how context can impact our understanding of communion:

The historical Passover in Egypt on Nisan 14 was a preview and prophecy of a greater Exodus from the enslavement of sin that would impact the entire world when Jesus would give His life on the Cross Nisan 14 the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
When Jesus said “Do THIS in remembrance of me …” He was linking the plan of the Heavenly Father in eternity past through Israel and the Messiah of Israel into eternity future. As Paul said, “You proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes!” (1 Corinthians 11:26)
The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 that Jesus said He was inaugurating by His blood on the cross was actually a covenant that God made with Israel, and into which the world is invited through the Messiah. In this covenant the Lord purposed that the church would find its roots. While Jesus focussed on the personal aspects of the New Covenant it also describes the future national salvation of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-37). On this great future day God will take the Law from the stone tablets and write it on the hearts and minds of the children of Israel. The New Covenant that Jesus is offering to you and me now is not national but personal and is available to both Jews and Gentiles.
The context reveals that there was a terrible turn in church history when the Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea 325 outlawed the celebration of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus in the context in which it took place – the Biblical calendar date of Nisan 14, the day of historic Passover – and in so doing removed it from its Biblical foundation. Instead, he required all churches to observe Easter!

Celebrating communion in its context, therefore, helps correct Constantine’s corruption.
The context of communion helps to equip the church in the work of evangelism to “provoke Jewish friends to jealousy”. It helps our Jewish friends see that the heart of faith in Jesus is rooted in the unfolding plan of the Lord God of Israel and that following Jesus the Messiah is not a “new religion”!


1. See “Messiah and The Passover” Bock/Glaser, Kregel Publications chapter 6 “Passover and the Lord’s Supper” pg. 99-109 by Brian Crawford. Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 5.23 (Nicene and Post-Nicene Father, Series 2 1:241-42) and Polycrates’ letter to Victor in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 5.24 (Nicene and Post-Nicene Father, Series 2 1:242-44). He identifies the Apostles Philip and John as the originators of the Passover observance in Asia Minor, and then identifies six others, including himself, who have retained that practice until Polycrates’ own day.”

The Context of Communion Matters

Our ministry, ONE FOR ISRAEL, is a movement of Jewish and Arab Israeli followers of Jesus with a commission to reach their country and the nations with the Gospel. We see our call to equip believers in Israel and around the world with the tools of ministry through our media outreach, and to...

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J.

 

[Johann]

You are avoiding direct engagement with the Pauline epistles, the cross, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, instead redefining these central truths of Scripture to promote your own religious perspective. This is a subtle attempt to introduce another gospel, which stands contrary to what is written in Scripture, and you do so with the apparent consent of the @Administrator.

Rather than addressing questions about the Christian faith, which you are aware of, you deflect and answer with further questions.

The tools I employ, including Scriptural study, are sufficient for me, and your arguments stand refuted. What you may not realize is that I have full permission from the Administrator to use ChatGPT as I see fit. You are not having a dialogue with artificial intelligence; you are engaging with me directly, and your position has been refuted. At this point, it would be more appropriate for you to concede.

During my time away from this Forum, I have grown in understanding, and it is evident that the message you bring is another gospel-a pseudo-gospel-being propagated on a Christian platform.

As Scripture states:
"For the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is completed" (2 Corinthians 10:4-6, LEB).

I implore you to reflect on your actions and the potential stumbling blocks you may be placing before others. It is better to concede than to persist in spreading teachings contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

J.

Spotted @Complete.

Keep the faith!

Johann.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I have refuted through reason and Scripture the claims made by @jeremiah1five that Gentiles were hybrid heritage Hebrews. But even more importantly, I have made clear before @jeremiah1five that any thesis supposedly based on a sacred book should be rejected automatically if it is evil.

As I have said, grandmom's and little children's notions of good and evil come first. The Bible comes second.
The inspired authors of the Bible started writing under the premise that their readers could tell right from wrong... and had a basic understanding of what "mercy", "justice" or "love" means.

So, if the theology of @jeremiah1five proposes that God does not love the Congolese, that we should not love the Congolese, and the only fate of Congolese is a well-deserved and painful destruction... then his theology is wrong by definition, because it is evil. There is no truth in evil, and that applies to the topic we are discussing in this thread.

If you, @synergy, or @Johann or @TomL[/USER] come to conclude that 15 millions of Sikhs deserve to be tormented in hell forever because of their doctrinal views, then your theology would be automatically wrong, because it would be evil... and then you should become the kind of Christians that abhor those views (there are millions of those Christians, fortunately!) .
Of course, what I still believe is that in your heart of hearts you are pretty sure that God, somehow, through a process unknown to you and me, forgives them and transform them and saves them.



Hi @synergy and @Johann
Hi everyone

It is weird that, when I announce that I will review Paul, Johann writes "It should be interesting" and synergy writes "It will be fascinating"... as if reviewing the direct sayings of Christ, as I am doing, was not the most interesting and fascinating thing for a Christian!
So, as I get closer to review Paul, I want to insist on the obvious:

1. Jesus was not an apostle of Paul. Paul was an apostle of Jesus.
2. Christians consider Christ, not Paul, as the Founder of the church, and the rock of their faith.
3. We don't study Jesus's words as a complement of the theology exposed by Paul. We study Paul's words as a complement of the theology exposed by Jesus.

I hope all my Christian friends agree with me on these three statements.

YOU think you refuted my positions found in Scripture, but you haven't.
You're just one of the millions of Gentiles who are NOT the seed of Abraham who think they are saved and going to be with God.

The Scripture teaches that God made covenant with Abraham and with his seed, a people later to be called the children of Israel.

There is no evidence in Scripture God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. And no one here is able to provide the passages and the verses of God making covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
The reason for that is because there is no such passages or verses in the Hebrew Scripture God ever made any kind of covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None. They do not exist.
And I'm still waiting for you to provide the Scripture of a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles, and you've not yet done because there is no such covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Hebrew Scripture.

 

[Studyman]

I want to share with you the last key event in the gospel that shows how Jesus considered forgiveness. Then I will make a summary of how God forgives according to the first 43 books of the Bible (or 50, if we included those recognized by Catholics). Then, next week God's willing, I expect to go through Paul and the other books of the New Testament.

OK, here we go with the last key event in this subject:

When they came to the place which is called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they divided His clothes by casting lots. (Luke 23:33-34)​

​

The Roman Soldiers did not harbor in their brains a belief in Jesus' deity, substitutionary atonement or promise of a physical resurrection.
Not just that: perhaps the vast majority of them didn't even harbor in their brains a belief in the God of Israel.
However, Jesus interceded for their sins before the Father anyway. Why? "For they know not what they do". Jesus didn't say they were stupid or stubborn. They just didn't have the proper knowledge.

I love this history. I am aware of several things that happened here.

#1. Jesus prayed out loud, not to be heard of God because we all should know that God doesn't need men to pray out loud to be heard, God already knew what was in Jesus' heart. No, HE prayed out loud so that those in attendance could hear Him. In doing so, He established so many Truths. He exposed their actions as a Sin, against His Father, the One True God, not against HIM. And asked His Father to Forgive them. He didn't say, "I forgive you", as forgiving someone who isn't repentant will only enable this person to treat others in the same way.

He showed them His Compassion at the same time, but He didn't ask God to forgive them for the past murder of innocent men, or for the future murder of innocent men. Clearly Repentance is required for such behavior. HE asked His Father to forgive them for this Sin against His Father. As for the other innocent men they persecuted and murdered, Jesus had already addressed that.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Clearly Jesus didn't ask His Father and my Father to forgive all these men for the murder of other innocent men they were not sorry about.

But Jesus simply asked His Father to forgive them of this sin. And HE prayed out loud to His Father to Glory Him, that some men might consider what had just been done. And it seems, according to what is actually written in Scriptures, it worked.

Luke 23: 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: (Truly HE was a Righteous Man) and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

47 Now "when the centurion" saw what was done, "he glorified God", saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

So Jesus' out loud prayer prompted this man to consider about the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Jesus' Prayer prompted this man, who probably didn't believe in the God of Israel, to Glorify this same God when He asked God not to hold this Sin he had just committed, against him.

48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

And this was like a wave that rippled through out the land to the Glory of the God and Father of the Lord's Christ. Consider the Words of the Disciples a short time later.

Acts 2: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore "being by the right hand "of God" exalted", and having received "of the Father" the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD "said unto my Lord", Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made "that same Jesus", whom "ye have crucified", both Lord and Christ. (As Prophesied by the Prophets of God since the world began)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, "what shall we do"?

Isn't this the mindset God and His Son wants men to have? That is the desired outcome of the Out loud prayer, Yes? "Oh my goodness, what have I done? I am so sorry, what shall I do now?" And the Gospel of Christ is the Good News that we "CAN" do something, Yes? That we don't have to be forever condemned. "Because we didn't know what we were doing".

Here is what God inspired Peter to tell them.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ "for the remission of sins", and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise (to Abraham) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Here is what Jesus told them before they murdered Him.

Matt. 4: 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And Paul also, after they murdered Him.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So my friend, I completely agree with you that God doesn't destroy men for ignorance. (Willful ignorance perhaps is a different topic) And by destroy, I mean there are some men who God will let die, and they will know why.

I believe the Holy Days of God lay out a Salvation plan in which all men will have their fair chance at the Salvation of God. And that all men will be shown what can be known of the One True God. I also agree that God never placed on the necks of men the requirement to join a popular religious club, or adopt a certain religious philosophy or theology promoted by one of this world's many religious businesses or sects.

But, not to offend, I do not agree with you that when Jesus asked His Father to forgive them of the Sin of killing Him, that HE means there is no requirement of repentance for the forgiveness of the ignorant.

It would be like if a man killed my brother and raped his daughters and wife and then came and killed me. I could pray to God that HE does not hold the Sin of killing me against them, but how could I pray that God lets them go, forgiven without repentance, to kill and rape others? I don't believe Jesus did that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Clearly Jesus didn't ask His Father and my Father to forgive all these men for the murder of other innocent men they were not sorry about.

But Jesus simply asked His Father to forgive them of this sin. And HE prayed out loud to His Father to Glory Him, that some men might consider what had just been done. And it seems, according to what is actually written in Scriptures, it worked.



But, not to offend, I do not agree with you that when Jesus asked His Father to forgive them of the Sin of killing Him, that HE means there is no requirement of repentance for the forgiveness of the ignorant.

It would be like if a man killed my brother and raped his daughters and wife and then came and killed me. I could pray to God that HE does not hold the Sin of killing me against them, but how could I pray that God lets them go, forgiven without repentance, to kill and rape others? I don't believe Jesus did that.

I agree with you. It is just that I wrote my post under the premise that those soldiers were just doing their job following orders.
They never knew (nor had the means to know) if the person they were crucifying was guilty of innocent. That was the job of the judges.
What they knew is that the men they crucified were supposed to be enemies of Rome, people looking to cause revolts.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

THE CASE OF PAUL

Id like to start with a question to reflect upon: When did Saul, the blaspheme and persecutor of innocent people (as he describes himself) was born again?

If we define "being born again" as starting a new life, the life of Christ, we could say he was born again when, obeying Christ, he did not fulfill the plans he had in mind in going to Damascus, and instead went to Ananias. Do we agree on this? The course of his life, his plans and objectives, had been put upside down... changed radically.

So, there is no evidence that Paul believed in Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection before, or immediately before being born again.

Obviously, through his experience in the way to Damascus, he became aware that Jesus was alive.
We have no evidence that he saw a physical body. He saw a light and heard a voice. He refers to the episode as a "vision". What we can say, though, is that at the moment of being born again, Paul believed that Jesus was real, alive, and the Messiah. Why the Messiah? Because that's what the early Christians he was persecuting defended... and that Paul wanted to eradicate.

What was the mission that Jesus gave to Saul?

“He said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and a witness both of what you have seen and of what I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from your people and from the Gentiles to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ (Acts 26:12-18)​

Jesus had preached repentance and forgiveness of sins. Jesus had called people to turn from darkness to light. Paul would do the same, in the name of Christ.
So, every person who had faith in Jesus would do what Jesus commanded: abandon their own ways and start a new life of love and obedience to God) so that they could receive forgiveness of sins.
Certainly, Paul would tell the world that Jesus was the Messiah of Israel, and that he had been unjustly crucified, raised by God from dead, and that He would come again (very soon) to establish the Kingdom that he promised. But these beliefs, as intellectual tenets, were not the end in themselves for Paul's preaching... those beliefs should lead people to accomplish what Christ had come to accomplish: create a new man, give him a new life.

Paul had very clear that repentance led to salvation:
Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but the sorrow of the world produces death.(1 Cor 7:10)

and Paul had very clear that he preached repentance as a condition inherent to show faith in Christ
I did not keep from declaring what was beneficial to you, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 20:21)

Now, why Paul started to talk frequently on the redemption brought by the sacrifice of Jesus in the cross? We will see that later on. Please be patient.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In Ephesians 2:1-10 we get clear evidence that the whole purpose of preaching a crucified, resurrected and exalted Christ was the change in the life of the people. A change from a state of spiritual death, to a state of spiritual life... eternal life and exaltation.
Let's read the passage carefully:

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the age of this world and according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among them we all also once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and we were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. ​

​

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and He raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. ​

​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we should walk in them."​

Paul is telling the brethren that

1. They were "dead", walking according the mundane desires, the lust of the flesh.
2. God had shown them mercy
3. God had "resuscitated" them along with Christ
4. God had "seated them in heaven" along with Christ
5. God had reserved for them "the riches" of un upcoming age.
6. God had "created them in Christ" for good works. To walk a new path.

So, how is that the Christians of Ephesus had been already raised from the dead together with Christ, and ascended to seat with Christ in heaven?
Weren't they still raising crops, selling in the market, cooking for the family or repairing houses?
Well, for Paul, as for Christ, what is relevant is the spiritual meaning of all that.

As you can see, the purpose of all belief in the crucifixion, resurrection and exaltation of Christ, is not the belief as such. It is the spiritual change that make us creatures who do good works, who walk the right pathway.
Paul preached Christ to Jews and Greeks so that the violent could become meek, the lustful pure, the dishonest honest, the coward brave. That was the ultimate purpose of his preaching.

Paul was not inventing a new way of salvation. But certainly, Paul was going to use Jewish analogies and metaphors for a good purpose. We will see that soon.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt. (Exodus 12:13)

That blood saved their lives.

That blood was their ticket to freedom.

Life and death. Sin and sacrifice. Blood was spilled, and covering was provided.

Sacrifice, the spilling of blood, is the only way to atone for sin.

A life for a life.

God set up the Sinai Covenant full of symbols and metaphors to help His people understand the deep spiritual realities of sin and slavery,

Hi, Johann.
Thanks for your comprehensive explanation. I have highlighted the words "sign" "symbols and metaphors" in your post to stress the fact that blood is a symbol of life: biological life and certainly spiritual life.
Blood is one of the symbols often use in the Bible to indicate the salvific action of God: The others are water, wind(spirit), fire, light, word. Probably there are more that I don't remember, but I think these six ones are the most used.

It is important to remember that spilling of blood and the concept of atonement are symbols easily understood in those times.
But salvation is not about atonement. Every person is responsible for his own bad behavior. The mere thought of a person paying for the wrongdoings of another person is not pleasant to God.

"Fathers may not be put to death for the sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deut 24:16)

Animal sacrifices were a common practice among several cultures, along with circumcision, vegetable offerings, smell offerings (inciense), priesthood, and the building of sanctuaries and shrines.
That God leveraged on some of these rituals and symbols to illustrate truths, does not mean that people HAD to spill blood in order to be forgiven. At times other symbols were used. For example, fire (live coals) is used to describe how Isaiah was forgiven. Water is used in Psalm 51, and also in the baptism.

The prophets of God knew this. MERCY, and not spilling of blood was the condition to achieve God's forgiveness.
"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
Jesus understood this well and quoted Hosea in Matthew 9:13
It is important to review the context in which Jesus quoted Hosea.

9 As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s station. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” And he rose and followed Him.​

10 While Jesus sat at supper in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”​

12 But when Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”​

Jesus had another golden chance to have explained that those tax collectors and sinners had to believe in his deity, blood atonement and future physical resurrection so that their repentance was accepted. However, Jesus didn't do it. Jesus exalted mercy. His quotation of Hosea goes in line with what he spoke at other occasions: that if we were merciful to others, God would be merciful with us.
Mercy, not blood atonement.

I would like to add this passage to the "Core Block" of passages, to have 21 in total.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Paul was facing a big problem in the first communities of followers of Christ: some converts, known as the Judaizers, were demanding from converts from pagan religions (commonly referred as "the Greek") to adopt the Law of Moses completely, in order to be considered true Christians. The problem is particularly evident in the epistles to Galatians and Romans.

Remember that Christianism was not conceived in those times as a separate religion, but as the fulfillment of Judaism. Externally, Christians were seen as a sect within Judaism. So, Judaizers really expect Greeks to do certain things to prove they were true Jews and therefore, true Christians. Greeks were not in agreement. One group started despising the other. Division occurred, and Paul got really worried.

The main demands of Judaizers (at least those that worried Paul the most) were:

• Getting circumcised
• Observing the dietary restrictions
• Observing the festivities /sabbaths
• Traveling to the Temple of Jerusalem for the performance of ritual sacrifices

Paul addressed these demands. The harder a ritual to observe, the more a barrier it represented for the conversion of Gentiles, and the more it bothered Paul.
Circumcision is a painful ritual in adults. It had the potential to disuade people from believing in Christ's message. That's what Paul spent a lot of ink and time talking about the irrelevance of circumcision.
Traveling to the Temple in Jerusalem to make animal sacrifices was perhaps even worse. Very expensive, dangerous (as any long trip in those times) and time-consuming.

So this is how Paul addressed these demands

1. FOR CIRCUMCISION: It would now be a "circumcision of the heart". In Christ, it didn't matter who was circumcised and how was not.
2. FOR DIETARY RESTRICTIONS. Prudence and common sense were to be followed. If the host of a meal could feel bothered, then the brethren should abstain. Otherwise, they could eat.
3. FOR SABBATH: Christ was the true Rest, the True Sabbath we all should enter. Nobody should be judged for keeping the festivities of the Law of Moses.
4. FOR SACRIFICES IN THE TEMPLE: Christ was the sacrifice that ended all sacrifices. Whatever symbolic atonement Jews could find in the spilling of blood of an inocent animal, they and Greeks could now find it in the shedding of blood of Jesus on the cross.

So, understanding what Paul was trying to achieve in keeping unity in the Church is important to understand why Paul used the analogies of redemption through the blood of Jesus. However, the cross was not only a symbol of atonement. We will see that later on.

 

[Johann]

However, the cross was not only a symbol of atonement. We will see that later on.

That's incorrect-but I'll give you a fair chance to present your case against the cross, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

With Peter’s ship, The Teaching about the Cross, beginning to take on water, it became necessary for us to abandon ship. As we walk across the causeway of the Book of Acts, we are now going to be sailing with the Apostle Paul. Paul will bring us to our final destination. We are about to sail across the deep waters of the finished work of Christ, which is uncharted territory prior to the Pauline revelation. As we plumb the depths of these waters, we are going to find that the Apostle Paul was the first to show us the significance of the death of Christ. He proclaimed the Cross as good news! There is always one of two responses to this message; either it’s received with thanksgiving or it’s rejected as mere foolishness!

THE PREACHING OF THE CROSS
“For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God” (I Cor. 1:18).

The term “preaching” is not one of the typical words the apostle uses when referring to the proclamation of the Cross. For example, in II Timothy 4:2, Paul instructs us to “Preach the Word.” Here the apostle uses the Greek, kerusso, which signifies a herald. It refers to the one who announces clearly and loudly the entrance of the King. In like manner, we are to give a clear presentation of the gospel of salvation. Interestingly in I Corinthians 1:18, Paul employs the term Logos—the Word. So then, it is the Word of the Cross, which is the power of God unto salvation. It is the apostle’s objective to contrast the Word of the Cross with the word of man.

The Cross to the natural man is mere foolishness—why, it’s absurd to think that God would take on a human form, be crucified, and rise again in order to redeem mankind! To the natural man this is beyond the realm of reason. Therefore, Paul challenges the world to step forward and match its wisdom and knowledge with the wisdom and knowledge of God.

“Where is the wise [intelligentsia]? Where is the scribe [doctor of the law]? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?” (I Cor. 1:20).

Paul summons the world to answer these age-old questions, if they will. Where did man come from? How can he be made right with God? What is his purpose in life? What is his final destination? The natural man’s attempt to answer these questions apart from God is like the man who’s blind, searching in a dark room for a black cat that doesn’t exist. The world’s philosophy to the above is as follows:

1. Origins: In the dateless past, out of nothing came something, out of which life eventually emerged from the bogs of primeval seas. Over a 5-billion year period, this one cell entity called an amoeba evolved into a complex multi-billion celled being called modern man.

2. Justification: If my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds on the scales of life, God will accept me into heaven when I die.

3. Purpose: On one side of the coin, the epicurean philosophy is, “Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.” After all, you owe it to yourself to indulge in everything the world has to offer. On the other side of the coin, the stoic says you must devote yourself to fleshly inhibitions to find fulfillment in life.

4. Eternal Destiny: Most unregenerate men deny that there is life beyond the grave. In the words of Carl Sagan, the famous astronomer, “Death is the end!”

According to the Word of God, in the beginning God created man in His image (Gen. 1:26 cf. 2:7). John Milton said: “The greatness and sacredness of man’s soul is attested by two facts: First, the creation of his soul in the image of the eternal God; and second, the price that had to be paid for the redemption of his soul.” Today, man is justified by the grace of God through faith in the finished work of Christ, apart from works (Rom. 3:24 cf. I Cor. 15:1-4). Upon conversion, man’s chief end in life is to glorify God, with whom he will spend eternity in the heavenlies (Rev. 4:11 cf. Col. 1:5).

The world by human wisdom will never know God! Thus, “it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe” (I Cor. 1:21). The phrase “foolishness of preaching” is the rationale of the skeptic—it’s nothing but foolishness to them. But the preaching of the Cross is to those who are saved a demonstration of the power of God. It convicted us of our sins and brought us to salvation. The power of God transformed our lives!

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's incorrect-but I'll give you a fair chance to present your case against the cross, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

J.

I will not present a case against the cross, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.
Let me remind you what is the purpose of this thread, my brother.
The case I am presenting is against the belief that God demands from the sinner, as a condition to receive his mercy, or transform his life, to adhere to the doctrines of Jesus deity, blood atonement and resurrection.

So the topic is quite different.
Perhaps an example could help? It is a trivial one but will do the trick

You and I agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.​

Let's say that we find a guy who claims to have good historical or archeological evidence that Jesus was born in Nazareth, and not Bethlehem. That the story in Luke was somehow added or manipulated to make it clear that Jesus was descendant of King David. Furthermore, he believes that the first chapters of the gospel of Luke are not inspired and should come out from the Bible.​

Would we consider that God will not forgive his sins and send him to eternal hell because of that?​

Of course not.​

Even when what he believes is not correct, that does not limit God's mercy. God never demanded from people to believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem as a condition to be forgiven. So, we should not add requisites that God never placed.​

Hope this example helps.

 

[Johann]

The case I am presenting is against the belief that God demands from the sinner, as a condition to receive his mercy, or transform his life, to adhere to the doctrines of Jesus deity, blood atonement and resurrection.

Incorrect, I'm still waiting for the conclusion of the matter.

God’s Mercy is Freely Given but Conditional on Faith in Christ
Ephesians 2:8–9 (Lexham Bible): "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Salvation is offered by grace (unmerited favor), but it is received through faith in Christ. Faith is not a "work" but the means by which a sinner trusts in the saving work of Jesus.

John 3:16: "For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life."

God’s mercy is revealed in the giving of His Son, and belief in Him is the condition for eternal life. Rejecting Jesus means rejecting the mercy God has extended to humanity.

Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Faith in Jesus’ deity ("Jesus is Lord") and His resurrection is explicitly stated as the condition for salvation.

Your assertion that God does not demand adherence to Jesus’ deity, blood atonement, and resurrection denies the explicit requirements of faith stated in Scripture.

God’s mercy is not coerced or earned, but it is received through believing in the truth of who Jesus is and what He has accomplished.

2. The Deity of Jesus is Essential to His Saving Work

John 1:1, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us."

Jesus is not merely a man or prophet but God incarnate. Only God could fulfill the perfect standard of righteousness and pay the infinite penalty for sin.

Hebrews 1:3: "He is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of his power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Jesus, as the exact representation of God, purifies sins through His divine authority and work.

John 8:24: "For unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."

Jesus directly connects belief in His identity as "I AM" (a reference to Yahweh in Exodus 3:14) to the forgiveness of sins.
Rebuttal:

If Jesus were not divine, His sacrifice would lack the power to atone for the sins of the world. Belief in His deity is non-negotiable because it is central to the gospel message.

3. The Blood Atonement is God’s Design for Forgiveness

Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, because it is the blood that makes atonement by means of the life."

From the Old Testament, God established that atonement for sin requires the shedding of blood. This principle is fulfilled in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:22: "And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

The shedding of blood is essential for forgiveness, and Jesus’ blood is the ultimate and final sacrifice.

1 Peter 1:18–19: "You know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb."

Redemption comes through Jesus’ blood, not through human effort or merit.

Dismissing the necessity of Jesus’ blood atonement contradicts the clear testimony of Scripture, which affirms that without the shedding of blood, forgiveness is impossible. Jesus’ sacrifice is the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan.

4. The Resurrection is Central to the Gospel and Salvation

1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins."

The resurrection is not an optional doctrine-it is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Without it, there is no victory over sin and death.

Romans 4:25: "Who was handed over on account of our trespasses, and was raised up in the interest of our justification."

Jesus’ resurrection secures justification for believers, proving that His sacrifice was accepted by God and that He has triumphed over death.

John 11:25: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even if he dies.'"

Jesus directly ties faith in Him as the resurrection and life to eternal salvation.

Rejecting the resurrection undermines the entire basis of Christian hope and salvation. If Jesus is not raised, then death remains unconquered, and there is no assurance of eternal life.

5. Faith in Christ is the Only Way to Salvation

John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Jesus Himself states that He is the exclusive path to God. Belief in Him-His deity, atonement, and resurrection-is the only means by which sinners can receive God’s mercy.

Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved."

Salvation is uniquely found in Jesus, affirming the necessity of faith in Him.

Conclusion: God’s Mercy is Found in Christ Alone

The case against believing in Jesus’ deity, blood atonement, and resurrection fails to account for the entire biblical witness. Scripture is clear that God’s mercy is offered freely but is accessed through faith in Jesus as the divine Savior who died and rose again. These truths are not optional doctrines but are central to the gospel itself. To reject them is to reject the very means of reconciliation with God.

I'll let you continue building your case without interruption until you're finished, @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Continuing with Paul, his references to the cross, to the blood of Christ, to the atonement, are all made within the context of the controversy with the Judaizers, who wanted the Greek converts to keep the Law (the Law of Moses, including, as we saw, traveling to the Temple of Jerusalem to perform the animal sacrifices).
What Paul wants is to preserve the UNITY of the church, the reconciliation between converts from Jewish and Greek backgrounds.
It is in this context that Paul talks about the "circumcision of the heart", the use of common sense in eating what was offered to the idols, the spiritual Shabbath that Christ offers... and... the atonement of Jesus through his sacrifice in the cross.

Let's examine an example, in Romans 3:21-26

"But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets. This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all and upon all who believe, for there is no distinction. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins previously committed, to prove His righteousness at this present time so that He might be just and be the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus."​

So, Paul is basically saying:
"You, Judaizers, have sinned... and You, Greeks, have sinned. We all have sinned. What keeps us together is not the need to go the temple in Jerusalem to spill blood of animals, but the faith in Jesus. Take Him as a replacement and fulfillment of all those animal sacrifices. Stop the distinction among ourselves! No one is better than other! "

Paul is giving Gentiles and Jews an image that both can relate with and end the quarreling.
No more preparation for the expensive, long and risky trip to Jerusalem. The atonement rituals are no longer necessary.

Paul is not addressing how Greeks were forgiven in the past. Actually, Paul says that God "passed over the sins previously committed", which proves, once again, that God can forgive sins without blood atonement, or belief in Jesus deity.
By the same token, Paul is not addressing how the Chinese of his days were forgiven of their daily sins. Paul would obviously not demand from Chinese any belief about Christ. Those were not Paul's concerns.

 

[civic]

Incorrect, I'm still waiting for the conclusion of the matter.

God’s Mercy is Freely Given but Conditional on Faith in Christ
Ephesians 2:8–9 (Lexham Bible): "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

Salvation is offered by grace (unmerited favor), but it is received through faith in Christ. Faith is not a "work" but the means by which a sinner trusts in the saving work of Jesus.

John 3:16: "For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life."

God’s mercy is revealed in the giving of His Son, and belief in Him is the condition for eternal life. Rejecting Jesus means rejecting the mercy God has extended to humanity.

Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Faith in Jesus’ deity ("Jesus is Lord") and His resurrection is explicitly stated as the condition for salvation.

Your assertion that God does not demand adherence to Jesus’ deity, blood atonement, and resurrection denies the explicit requirements of faith stated in Scripture.

God’s mercy is not coerced or earned, but it is received through believing in the truth of who Jesus is and what He has accomplished.

2. The Deity of Jesus is Essential to His Saving Work

John 1:1, 14: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us."

Jesus is not merely a man or prophet but God incarnate. Only God could fulfill the perfect standard of righteousness and pay the infinite penalty for sin.

Hebrews 1:3: "He is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of his power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Jesus, as the exact representation of God, purifies sins through His divine authority and work.

John 8:24: "For unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."

Jesus directly connects belief in His identity as "I AM" (a reference to Yahweh in Exodus 3:14) to the forgiveness of sins.
Rebuttal:

If Jesus were not divine, His sacrifice would lack the power to atone for the sins of the world. Belief in His deity is non-negotiable because it is central to the gospel message.

3. The Blood Atonement is God’s Design for Forgiveness

Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, because it is the blood that makes atonement by means of the life."

From the Old Testament, God established that atonement for sin requires the shedding of blood. This principle is fulfilled in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:22: "And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

The shedding of blood is essential for forgiveness, and Jesus’ blood is the ultimate and final sacrifice.

1 Peter 1:18–19: "You know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb."

Redemption comes through Jesus’ blood, not through human effort or merit.

Dismissing the necessity of Jesus’ blood atonement contradicts the clear testimony of Scripture, which affirms that without the shedding of blood, forgiveness is impossible. Jesus’ sacrifice is the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan.

4. The Resurrection is Central to the Gospel and Salvation

1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is empty; you are still in your sins."

The resurrection is not an optional doctrine-it is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Without it, there is no victory over sin and death.

Romans 4:25: "Who was handed over on account of our trespasses, and was raised up in the interest of our justification."

Jesus’ resurrection secures justification for believers, proving that His sacrifice was accepted by God and that He has triumphed over death.

John 11:25: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even if he dies.'"

Jesus directly ties faith in Him as the resurrection and life to eternal salvation.

Rejecting the resurrection undermines the entire basis of Christian hope and salvation. If Jesus is not raised, then death remains unconquered, and there is no assurance of eternal life.

5. Faith in Christ is the Only Way to Salvation

John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Jesus Himself states that He is the exclusive path to God. Belief in Him-His deity, atonement, and resurrection-is the only means by which sinners can receive God’s mercy.

Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved."

Salvation is uniquely found in Jesus, affirming the necessity of faith in Him.

Conclusion: God’s Mercy is Found in Christ Alone

The case against believing in Jesus’ deity, blood atonement, and resurrection fails to account for the entire biblical witness. Scripture is clear that God’s mercy is offered freely but is accessed through faith in Jesus as the divine Savior who died and rose again. These truths are not optional doctrines but are central to the gospel itself. To reject them is to reject the very means of reconciliation with God.

I'll let you continue building your case without interruption until you're finished, @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

His blood is essential


Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22
According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,

Romans 3:25
God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice in His blood through faith, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace


1 Peter 1:18-19
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, / but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

Zechariah 9:11
As for you, because of the blood of My covenant, I will release your prisoners from the waterless pit.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.


hope this helps !!!

 

[Johann]

His blood is essential


Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22
According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood,

Romans 3:25
God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice in His blood through faith, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace


1 Peter 1:18-19
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, / but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

Zechariah 9:11
As for you, because of the blood of My covenant, I will release your prisoners from the waterless pit.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.


hope this helps !!!

So far, it’s all centered on good works, being good, and receiving forgiveness of sins without the necessity of the Cross, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus-none of which are considered essential in the Bahá'í faith.

We need apologists grounded in Scriptures.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The epistle of Romans offer broad evidence of the spiritual relevance of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection, and how Paul used these concepts to bring UNITY between Christians from Jew and Greek background.

Let's read Romans 6:3-7

Do you not know that we who were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

​

5 For if we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, so shall we also be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7 For the one who has died is freed from sin.​

How is that the brethren in Rome had been crucified with Christ and resurrected with Christ? Obviously, not literally.
Paul is using the concepts as analogies... because what Paul is worried about is about the brethren having "crucified" (so to speak) the "old man", and "resurrected" (so to speak) to the "new" man. Remember: all these words are metaphors!

In conclusion, Paul is worried about the unity of the brethren with Christ, achieved through the unity among themselves. That's why Paul also reminds everyone that the Law can be summarized in a single commandment: Love your neighbor! Sounds familiar? Please read Galatians 5:14 and Romans 13:9.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So far, it’s all centered on good works, being good, and receiving forgiveness of sins without the necessity of the Cross, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus-none of which are considered essential in the Bahá'í faith.

We need apologists grounded in Scriptures.

J.

I'm presenting solid evidence grounded in Scriptures.
If you have a different interpretation on the Scriptures I have quoted and explained, please go ahead and share it with us.

Remember: You have been crucified with Christ. You have been resurrected with Christ. You have been taken to heaven to sit with Christ.
This all is grounded in the texts I have presented.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

His blood is essential

No more essential than the water, the fire, the light, the Word.
It is not his blood, but the life of love that the blood represents.
Blood is a symbol of life.
When we drink the blood of Christ, we make it part of our lives, in the same way than when you eat bread, you make the molecules of the bread part of your body.

God did not demand blood, but mercy, love, obedience. Christ showed that mercy, love, obedience. His blood symbolizes all that.
It is in that sense that his blood redeems us.

 

[Johann]

The epistle of Romans offer broad evidence of the spiritual relevance of Jesus crucifixion and resurrection, and how Paul used these concepts to bring UNITY between Christians from Jew and Greek background.

Error.

Could you clarify why the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are considered "spiritual," @Pancho Frijoles?

Until you address this for the readers, you can't move on to the next step.

J.

 

[Johann]

I'm presenting solid evidence grounded in Scriptures.
If you have a different interpretation on the Scriptures I have quoted and explained, please go ahead and share it with us.

Remember: You have been crucified with Christ. You have been resurrected with Christ. You have been taken to heaven to sit with Christ.
This all is grounded in the texts I have presented.

I’m still waiting. Yes, I have a different interpretation of my Bible and won’t give you the opportunity to exegete the Scriptures for me through a Bahá'í lens or its modes of interpretation.

Proceed please.

J.