God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[civic]

So far, it’s all centered on good works, being good, and receiving forgiveness of sins without the necessity of the Cross, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus-none of which are considered essential in the Bahá'í faith.

We need apologists grounded in Scriptures.

J.

Yes the gospel which is salvific consists of the following essentials

1- Jesus lived
2- Jesus was crucified, died for our sins - His blood which was poured out on the cross
3- Jesus was buried
4- Jesus was physically/bodily resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day
5- Jesus was seen over 40 days by many witnesses and last of all seen by Paul
6- Jesus ascended into heaven.
7- this is the gospel one must believe and receive confessing He is Lord/YHWH as per Paul in Romans 10:9-13

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Error.

Could you clarify why the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are considered "spiritual," @Pancho Frijoles?

I said in my post "spiritual relevance". I'm refering to the spiritual importance for salvation.

When we abandon our old ways of living, it is like if we were crucifying the old man and getting crucified with Christ.
When we start living a new lifestyle, it is like if we had been resurrected with Christ.

Jesus was crucified. But we must crucify our old self to make Jesus crucifixion relevant for us.
Jesus raised from the dead. But we must start living a new life to make Jesus resurrection relevant for us.

Any discussion of Jesus crucifixion or resurrection is worthless if we don't get crucified with Jesus, buried with Jesus, resurrected with Jesus, ascended with Jesus to heaven, and all that are things that can happen to us now.

 

[Johann]

No more essential than the water, the fire, the light, the Word.
It is not his blood, but the life of love that the blood represents.
Blood is a symbol of life.
When we drink the blood of Christ, we make it part of our lives, in the same way than when you eat bread, you make the molecules of the bread part of your body.

God did not demand blood, but mercy, love, obedience. Christ showed that mercy, love, obedience. His blood symbolizes all that.
It is in that sense that his blood redeems us.

Incorrect-

The Blood is Essential, Not Just a Symbol
Your claim that blood is merely symbolic and not essential to redemption contradicts Scripture's consistent teaching about the necessity of shed blood for atonement.

Leviticus 17:11 (Lexham Bible):
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, because it is the blood that makes atonement by means of the life."

The Hebrew word for blood, דָּם (dam), is not symbolic but literal in its sacrificial context. The passage explicitly states that blood is required for atonement. The life of the flesh resides in the blood, and God ordained it as the means of covering sin.

Hebrews 9:22:
"And almost all things are purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

The Greek word for shedding (αἱματεκχυσία, haimatekchysia) emphasizes the act of blood being poured out in sacrifice, further indicating its literal necessity.

2. Christ’s Blood Is Not Merely a Symbol of Life but the Means of Redemption

The idea that Christ’s blood is only symbolic denies the gospel’s central truth.

Jesus’ blood is presented throughout the New Testament as the literal means of redemption, not just a representation of love or obedience.

1 Peter 1:18–19:
"You know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb."

Peter explicitly connects redemption to Jesus' blood, using the Greek word τίμιος (timios), meaning "precious," to emphasize its value and necessity.

Revelation 5:9:
"And they were singing a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.'"

The blood of Christ (αἵμα, haima) is the transactional price by which believers are redeemed. It is not symbolic but literal in its application to salvation.

Romans 3:25:
"Whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness."

The phrase "faith in his blood" (ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ, en tō haimati autou) shows that the blood of Jesus is central to the believer’s justification.

3. Biblical Mercy, Love, and Obedience Are Fulfilled Through the Blood
While it is true that God desires mercy, love, and obedience, these virtues do not negate the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.

Hosea 6:6:
"For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings."

This verse does not eliminate the need for atonement but emphasizes the heart behind the sacrificial system. Jesus perfectly embodied steadfast love and obedience while fulfilling the law’s requirements through His blood.

Hebrews 10:10:
"By which will we are made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Jesus’ obedience in going to the cross (Philippians 2:8) fulfills the need for mercy and sacrifice simultaneously. The Greek term προσφορά (prosphora), meaning "offering," demonstrates that His blood was the means by which mercy and love were accomplished.

4. The Act of Drinking the Blood Is Not Symbolic Participation but Faith in Its Efficacy
The metaphor of drinking Christ’s blood is rooted in a faith-based appropriation of His sacrifice, not merely a symbol of living a good life.

John 6:53–54:
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves! The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.'"

The Greek verb for "drink" (πίνω, pinō) is metaphorical for receiving the benefits of Jesus’ sacrifice by faith. However, the focus is on the literal atoning power of His blood, not a mere representation of a moral life.

1 Corinthians 11:25:
"In the same way also the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'"

The new covenant is directly tied to Jesus’ blood (αἷμα, haima). It is not about bread and wine becoming literal blood, but these elements symbolize the historical and literal shedding of Jesus’ blood that secured the covenant.

5. Cultural Understanding of Blood in Atonement
In the ancient Jewish context, blood represented life but was also considered sacred because it was the means by which sins were covered.

The Passover lamb in Exodus 12:7–13 required literal blood to be applied to the doorposts to protect the Israelites. This was not symbolic but a tangible act of faith in God’s provision.

Jesus is explicitly referred to as the Lamb of God (John 1:29), directly connecting His sacrifice to the literal shedding of blood required for deliverance.

Conclusion: The Blood Is Both Literal and Necessary
The Bible consistently teaches that the blood of Jesus is not merely symbolic of love, mercy, and obedience but is the literal means by which sins are atoned for. God’s demand for blood does not contradict His mercy; rather, His mercy is demonstrated through His provision of a perfect sacrifice in Jesus. The cross stands as the ultimate fulfillment of both God’s justice and His love, making the blood of Christ essential for redemption.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes the gospel which is salvific consists of the following essentials

1- Jesus lived
2- Jesus died for our sins - His blood which was poured out on the cross
3- Jesus was buried
4- Jesus was physically/bodily resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day
5- Jesus was seen over 40 days by many witnesses and last of all seen by Paul
6- Jesus ascended into heaven.
7- this is the gospel one must believe and receive confessing He is Lord/YHWH as per Paul in Romans 10:9-13

Let me complement those statements with what Paul and Jesus really cared about

1. Jesus lived. And so what? Are you alive or dead?
2. Jesus died for our sins. And so what? Have you died to the old man?
3. Jesus was buried. And so what? Did you bury your old life?
4. Jesus was physically/bodily resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day. And so what? Are you living a new life?
5. Jesus was seen over 40 days by many witnesses. And so what? Can others witness your new life, so that they see your good works and glorify The Father?
6. Jesus ascended into heaven. And so what? Are you ascended with Him to paradise?


As you all see, believing as historical facts all those things does not have any impact on our salvation, unless we make of them spiritual truths to live for in our daily life.

 

[civic]

Let me complement those statements with what Paul and Jesus really cared about

1. Jesus lived. And so what? Are you alive or dead?
2. Jesus died for our sins. And so what? Have you died to the old man?
3. Jesus was buried. And so what? Did you bury your old life?
4. Jesus was physically/bodily resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day. And so what? Are you living a new life?
5. Jesus was seen over 40 days by many witnesses. And so what? Can others witness your new life, so that they see your good works and glorify The Father?
6. Jesus ascended into heaven. And so what? Are you ascended with Him to paradise?


As you all see, believing as historical facts all those things does not have any impact on our salvation, unless we make of them spiritual truths to live for in our daily life.

It’s not about you it’s about Him since He is the Savior of the world and man cannot save himself. So your points above are mute.

Faith in the person and works of Christ is what saves, it’s called the gospel of Christ which I defined by scripture.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Incorrect-

The Blood is Essential, Not Just a Symbol
Your claim that blood is merely symbolic and not essential to redemption contradicts Scripture's consistent teaching about the necessity of shed blood for atonement.

You don't believe that, Johann.
The precious blood Jesus shed is gone. It has disappeared from earth 2000 years ago.
So, if blood was essential and not symbolic, Jesus would have left vials of his blood preserved in a blood bank for us to spread it over our skin or drink it or infuse it into our veins, so that every time we sinned, we resorted to that blood.
.
So, to start with, the need of blood MUST be symbolic. Can we agree on that?
If we agree that the need of blood is symbolic, then we can proceed to discuss what is that symbol all about.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It’s not about you it’s about Him since He is the Savior of the world and man cannot save himself. So your points above are mute.

It's about you, as we are considering in this thread how YOU are forgiven and transformed.
God does not need forgiveness or change. Right?

So, we are talking about you, me, @Johann and the Sikh who stole 1000 USD from us.
In the same way, Paul was addressing the needs of real human beings in his church.
What crucifixion, burial, resurrection, Ascencion of Christ meant for the daily life of those real human beings, who were quarreling.

Faith in the person and works of Christ is what saves, it’s called the gospel of Christ which I defined by scripture.

I agree, as long as we define what faith is.
Remember, any demon can give us a wonderful lecture on the person and works of Christ... and that demon is not saved.
So, faith does not equal formal creeds or intellectual assents. It entails living up to principles and teachings.

 

[Johann]

I said in my post "spiritual relevance". I'm refering to the spiritual importance for salvation.

When we abandon our old ways of living, it is like if we were crucifying the old man and getting crucified with Christ.
When we start living a new lifestyle, it is like if we had been resurrected with Christ.

Jesus was crucified. But we must crucify our old self to make Jesus crucifixion relevant for us.
Jesus raised from the dead. But we must start living a new life to make Jesus resurrection relevant for us.

Any discussion of Jesus crucifixion or resurrection is worthless if we don't get crucified with Jesus, buried with Jesus, resurrected with Jesus, ascended with Jesus to heaven, and all that are things that can happen to us now.

And I'm talking re the LITERAL events of Jesus Christ, Him crucified, Him buried, Him resurrected which is non existent in the bahaji writings.

Bahá'u'lláh in Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh
Bahá'u'lláh acknowledges the suffering of Jesus but does not link it directly to the concept of atonement in the Christian sense. Instead, He presents it as a demonstration of divine love and sacrifice.

Quote on the suffering of Jesus:
"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things." (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, XLVI)

This passage implies that the crucifixion brought about spiritual renewal and transformation rather than addressing sin in a judicial manner.

2. `Abdu'l-Bahá in Some Answered Questions
`Abdu'l-Bahá provides a symbolic interpretation of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. He acknowledges the historical reality of the crucifixion but reinterprets its significance.

Quote on the crucifixion and resurrection:
"Christ sacrificed Himself so that the world might be quickened, and that its people might be educated, attain to spiritual powers, partake of a celestial civilization, and achieve everlasting life." (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 29)

In this view, the crucifixion is seen more as an educational and moral example for humanity rather than a substitutionary atonement for sin.

Quote on the resurrection:
"`The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All their states, their conditions, their acts, the things they have established, and the teachings they have uttered, are of a spiritual character and not material." (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 25)
This interpretation spiritualizes the resurrection as the continuation of Jesus' influence through His teachings and the faith of His followers.

>>Kinda like you are doing in your posts here on this Forum @Pancho Frijoles<<

3. The Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
In this foundational text, Bahá'u'lláh addresses misunderstandings about prophetic symbolism. While it does not focus on the crucifixion directly, it discusses the suffering of the Manifestations of God (a term for figures like Jesus, Muhammad, and Bahá'u'lláh) as part of their mission.

Quote on the suffering of Manifestations:
"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty." (Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 99)
This could be understood as a reference to Bahá'u'lláh himself, but it parallels the Christian narrative of Jesus' suffering as a means of bringing spiritual liberation.

4. Bahá'í Views on Atonement and Salvation
The Bahá'í writings generally do not support the Christian understanding of atonement as the primary purpose of Jesus’ crucifixion. Instead, they see it as a symbolic act of self-sacrifice meant to inspire humanity.

`Abdu'l-Bahá on atonement:
"The reality of Christ was not imprisoned in the tomb. No, He is living, eternal, His splendor and glory encompass the world." (Some Answered Questions, Chapter 25)

This reflects the Bahá'í belief in a spiritual rather than literal interpretation of atonement and resurrection.

Summary of Bahá'í Position

While the Bahá'í writings recognize the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event, they do not accept the Christian doctrine of the atoning blood sacrifice. Instead, they present the crucifixion as a demonstration of divine love and selflessness, with its primary purpose being moral and spiritual education for humanity. These interpretations significantly differ from the Christian emphasis on the necessity of Christ’s death for the forgiveness of sins.

Now you have a problem, you want to spiritualize everything when my Bible is dead set against the Hidden words of your faith.

What to do?

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

5. Cultural Understanding of Blood in Atonement
In the ancient Jewish context, blood represented life but was also considered sacred because it was the means by which sins were covered.

I agree, as long as we understand that wise Jews would not fall into the superstition of believing that bood ACTUALLY covered sins.
As I have said in another posts, Jews never bothered to build hundreds of sanctuaries with hundreds of priests in every village, to cover for the daily sins they made. No prophet was sent by God to urge them to build those tabernacles so that they could sacrifice animals and be forgiven.
What do you say about it? Why was that?

 

[Johann]

It's about you, as we are considering in this thread how YOU are forgiven and transformed.
God does not need forgiveness or change. Right?

So, we are talking about you, me, @Johann and the Sikh who stole 1000 USD from us.
In the same way, Paul was addressing the needs of real human beings in his church.
What crucifixion, burial, resurrection, Ascencion of Christ meant for the daily life of those real human beings, who were quarreling.

I agree, as long as we define what faith is.
Remember, any demon can give us a wonderful lecture on the person and works of Christ... and that demon is not saved.
So, faith does not equal formal creeds or intellectual assents. It entails living up to principles and teachings.

In the broader context of Galatians, Paul strongly warns against anyone introducing a different gospel, emphasizing that such individuals are under a curse. This reflects the seriousness of distorting the true message of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Correcting those who subtly or overtly bring in another gospel is not only necessary but a biblical mandate to safeguard the purity of the faith (Galatians 1:6–9).

That's why we are here to help YOU @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This reflects the Bahá'í belief in a spiritual rather than literal interpretation of atonement and resurrection.

OK, but so what?
If Jesus resurrected physically, or if He resurrected spiritually, does God require the sinner to answer the question correctly in order to forgive his sins and change his life?

Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in a physical resurrection. Does that mean that an alcoholic and violent JW cannot be forgiven and transformed by the Holy Spirit into a sober and meek JW? That's the point of the thread.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In the broader context of Galatians, Paul strongly warns against anyone introducing a different gospel, emphasizing that such individuals are under a curse. This reflects the seriousness of distorting the true message of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Correcting those who subtly or overtly bring in another gospel is not only necessary but a biblical mandate to safeguard the purity of the faith (Galatians 1:6–9).

That's why we are here to help YOU @Pancho Frijoles.

J.

In the text you mention, Paul was warning the Galatians about the Judaizers, who demanded the converts from Greek origin to comply with the Law of Moses. I'm dealing with that in my posts.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Now you have a problem, you want to spiritualize everything when my Bible is dead set against the Hidden words of your faith.

What to do?

J.

What to do?
Study, reflect, pray.
Which of the two interpretations, the literal or the spiritual, is consistent with reason and with a loving God?
Which of the two leans to irrationality and evil?

If millions of Muslims cannot be forgiven because they don't believe that Jesus is God, and will burn in hell forever and ever in unspeakable torment, then something is very very wrong with that interpretation!

 

[Johann]

I agree, as long as we understand that wise Jews would not fall into the superstition of believing that bood ACTUALLY covered sins.
As I have said in another posts, Jews never bothered to build hundreds of sanctuaries with hundreds of priests in every village, to cover for the daily sins they made. No prophet was sent by God to urge them to build those tabernacles so that they could sacrifice animals and be forgiven.
What do you say about it? Why was that?

Why all the questions, brother, when you've left the Christian faith to embrace the Bahá'í faith and its interpretations of the Bible? So far, it doesn’t seem to be going well for you, especially since you’re quite familiar with the Scriptures.

From a biblical perspective, the blood of Jesus is not merely symbolic but is understood as having profound spiritual and theological significance. Scripture teaches that the blood of Christ is central to salvation, serving as the means by which sin is atoned for, the new covenant is established, and believers are reconciled to God.

1. The Blood of Jesus as the Means of Atonement
The blood of Jesus is described as the price paid for humanity’s redemption. It is through His blood that sins are forgiven, not as a mere symbol, but as the actual divine provision for atonement.

Hebrews 9:22 (Lexham Bible):
"Apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

This verse establishes that bloodshed is a necessity for forgiveness under God’s law, fulfilled ultimately in Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7:
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

The blood of Christ is presented as the literal payment for sin, not a symbolic gesture.

1 Peter 1:18–19:
"You know that you were redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb."

The Greek word for "redeemed" (λυτρόω, lutroō) denotes a ransom paid, emphasizing that Christ’s blood was the actual means of purchasing believers from the bondage of sin.

2. The New Covenant in His Blood
Jesus Himself emphasized that His blood sealed the new covenant, fulfilling Old Testament prophecy and replacing the temporary sacrificial system with His once-for-all sacrifice.

Luke 22:20:
"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."

The blood of Jesus inaugurates a binding relationship between God and believers, much like the Mosaic covenant was established through the blood of sacrifices (Exodus 24:8).

Hebrews 10:19–20:
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence for the entrance into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, his flesh."

This shows that Jesus' blood provides access to God, not as a metaphor but as the literal means by which believers enter into God’s presence.

3. The Cleansing Power of His Blood
The blood of Jesus is actively described as cleansing believers from sin, signifying its ongoing spiritual power.

1 John 1:7:
"The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

The Greek word for "cleanses" (καθαρίζει, katharizei) implies a continual action, emphasizing the real and ongoing effect of His blood in purifying believers.

Revelation 7:14:
"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The imagery of washing robes in blood shows the paradoxical but real cleansing power of Jesus’ sacrifice.

4. The Blood as a Symbol and Reality
While the blood of Jesus can carry symbolic meaning (e.g., representing life, sacrifice, and covenant), its effects are not merely symbolic. Its reality is essential for salvation.

Leviticus 17:11 (fulfilled in Christ):
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives."

This foundational principle of atonement shows that blood is both a symbol of life and the means of substitutionary death for sin.

John 6:53–54:
"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves!"

While this statement is symbolic in its reference to faith in Christ's sacrifice, it is grounded in the reality of the atonement achieved by His literal blood.

5. How We View His Blood Today
As believers, we view the blood of Jesus with deep reverence, recognizing its spiritual power and its pivotal role in our salvation.

It is not just a symbol. The Bible consistently teaches that the shedding of Jesus’ blood was the divine means to address sin and establish the new covenant.

It is the basis of our faith. Every benefit of salvation-justification, sanctification, reconciliation, and eternal life-is tied to the blood of Christ.

In summary, the blood of Jesus is not merely symbolic. It is both the literal sacrifice that secured redemption and the basis for the ongoing spiritual realities in the life of the believer. Without the blood of Jesus, there would be no forgiveness of sins or access to the new covenant.

The Blood of Jesus: Once for All and Eternal
The blood of Christ is described as having an eternal and ongoing impact. His sacrifice was a singular event, yet its effects endure forever.

Hebrews 10:10 (Lexham Bible):
"By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The Greek term for "once for all" (ἐφάπαξ, ephapax) shows the singular, complete, and timeless nature of Christ's sacrifice. The shed blood doesn’t need repetition, as its efficacy is permanent.

Hebrews 9:12:
"And not through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption."

This passage highlights that the redemption Jesus achieved by His blood is not limited to the past but is eternal in scope.

2. Continual Cleansing Through His Blood
The blood of Jesus is not only efficacious for the initial act of salvation but also has an ongoing role in cleansing believers from sin.

1 John 1:7:
"But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

The verb cleanses (καθαρίζει, katharizei) is in the present tense, indicating a continual process. Believers continually rely on the efficacy of Christ's blood for ongoing forgiveness and purification.

Revelation 1:5:
"To the one who loves us and has set us free from our sins by his blood."

The blood of Jesus is depicted as the ongoing source of freedom from sin.
3. The New Covenant Secured by His Blood
Jesus’ blood established the New Covenant, which remains in effect for all believers today.

Luke 22:20:
"This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."

The covenant inaugurated by Jesus' blood is not temporary but an eternal relationship between God and believers, sealed by His sacrifice.
Hebrews 13:20:
"Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep by the blood of the eternal covenant..."

The covenant established through His blood is described as eternal, signifying its ongoing efficacy.

4. Access to God Through His Blood
The blood of Christ continues to provide believers access to God and confidence in their relationship with Him.

Hebrews 10:19:
"Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence for the entrance into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus..."

The blood of Jesus remains the basis for the believer’s access to God’s presence, enabling boldness and intimacy with Him.

Ephesians 2:13:
"But now in Christ Jesus you, who formerly were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ."

The blood brings continual nearness to God, reconciling and maintaining fellowship.

5. Eschatological Significance of His Blood
Even in the future, the blood of Jesus retains its power and will be remembered and celebrated as the means of redemption.

Revelation 5:9:
"And they were singing a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and by your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.'"

This heavenly vision shows that the power and significance of Jesus' blood endure into eternity.

Theological Implications

1. Atonement and Justification: The blood of Jesus remains the basis for justification and right standing before God (Romans 5:9).

2. Sanctification: Believers are continually sanctified and cleansed by His blood (Hebrews 10:14).

Eternal Redemption: The effects of Christ's sacrifice are not confined to history but provide eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12).
Conclusion

The shed blood of Jesus is as efficacious today as it was at the moment of His sacrifice.

Its power has not diminished, nor will it ever, because it was offered by the eternal Son of God, whose work transcends time. Believers today rely on His blood for forgiveness, sanctification, access to God, and eternal life. It is not merely a past event but a present reality with eternal significance.

Can we AGREE on this @Pancho Frijoles!

J.

 

[Johann]

In the text you mention, Paul was warning the Galatians about the Judaizers, who demanded the converts from Greek origin to comply with the Law of Moses. I'm dealing with that in my posts.

NOT just the Judaizers friend.

It seems I’ll need to dive into the Greek and Hebrew, along with the grammar and morphologies, to properly exegete the Scriptures for you since you haven’t been able to do so.

J.

 

[Johann]

What to do?
Study, reflect, pray.
Which of the two interpretations, the literal or the spiritual, is consistent with reason and with a loving God?
Which of the two leans to irrationality and evil?

If millions of Muslims cannot be forgiven because they don't believe that Jesus is God, and will burn in hell forever and ever in unspeakable torment, then something is very very wrong with that interpretation!

Implying my Bible is error and you "sacred collection of writings" true.

Saying the shed blood of Christ Jesus is not literal forgetting the ongoing cleansing of that shed blood STILL efficacious!

I can see the loopholes @Pancho Frijoles and where you are going wrong.

J.

 

[Johann]

You don't believe that, Johann.
The precious blood Jesus shed is gone. It has disappeared from earth 2000 years ago.
So, if blood was essential and not symbolic, Jesus would have left vials of his blood preserved in a blood bank for us to spread it over our skin or drink it or infuse it into our veins, so that every time we sinned, we resorted to that blood.
.
So, to start with, the need of blood MUST be symbolic. Can we agree on that?
If we agree that the need of blood is symbolic, then we can proceed to discuss what is that symbol all about.

The precious blood shed still efficacious with ongoing results brother. Here is where you are going wrong.
1 John 1:7 (Lexham Bible):
"But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
Greek Text and Analysis
The key part of the verse in Greek is:

τὸ αἷμα Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ καθαρίζει ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας.

Let’s break it down grammatically and morphologically:

τὸ αἷμα (to haima)

Noun, nominative singular neuter
"The blood" is the subject of this clause, specifically referring to the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ. In biblical thought, blood is often symbolic of life offered for atonement (Leviticus 17:11).
Ἰησοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ (Iēsou tou huiou autou)

Ἰησοῦ: Genitive singular of Ἰησοῦς (Jesus), denoting possession ("of Jesus").

τοῦ υἱοῦ: Genitive singular of υἱός (Son), denoting a further description ("of His Son").

αὐτοῦ: Genitive singular pronoun, referring to God the Father ("His").

This phrase identifies the blood as belonging to Jesus, the Son of God, emphasizing His divine identity.
καθαρίζει (katharizei)

Verb, present active indicative, 3rd person singular

The present tense is critical here. In Greek, the present tense often conveys an action that is ongoing or continuous.

Active voice: Jesus' blood is actively performing the cleansing.
Indicative mood: Indicates a statement of fact-the blood cleanses believers.

ἡμᾶς (hēmas)

Pronoun, accusative plural
Refers to "us" (believers), the recipients of the cleansing action.
ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας (apo pasēs hamartias)

ἀπὸ: Preposition, meaning "from," indicating separation or deliverance.

πάσης: Genitive singular feminine of πᾶς (all, every), emphasizing the comprehensive nature of the cleansing.

ἁμαρτίας: Genitive singular of ἁμαρτία (sin), indicating the object from which believers are cleansed.

Expanded Translation with Emphasis on Grammar
"If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is continually cleansing us from all sin."

The present active indicative of καθαρίζει ("cleanses") reveals that the blood of Jesus is not a one-time action but a continuous process. This aligns with the ongoing sanctification and purification of believers as they live in fellowship with God.

Theological Significance
Ongoing Efficacy: The present tense demonstrates that Jesus’ blood has an enduring and continuous effect, cleansing believers from sin as they confess and repent (1 John 1:9).

Comprehensive Cleansing: The phrase "from all sin" (ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας) indicates no sin is beyond the reach of Jesus’ cleansing blood.

Covenantal Purity: This ongoing cleansing reflects the new covenant established through Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20, Hebrews 9:14).

Conclusion
The Greek syntax and morphology of 1 John 1:7 emphasize the continual and active nature of the cleansing power of Jesus’ blood. This ongoing purification is essential for the believer's relationship with God, ensuring that they remain in fellowship with Him and free from the stain of sin. The verse affirms the enduring efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice, grounded in both its historical reality and its present spiritual application.
First of all, the blood of Jesus, that is, His death, opened to us the way of salvation from our sins. His blood redeemed, or purchased, our salvation. Romans 3:24,25 tells us “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past.”

Ephesians 1:7 tells us, “In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” Romans 5:9 informs us, “Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” I John 1:7 says, “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” See also I Peter 1:19 and Hebrews 2:14.

Paul teaches that we share with other believers the remembrance of Christ’s death until He comes for us when we partake of communion (I Cor. 11:23-25). It was our Lord Jesus Christ’s shed blood, His death, that saved us from sin and gave us eternal life with Him.

JESUS CHRIST’S BLOOD GIVES US ACCESS TO GOD
Secondly, His blood, that is, His death, has provided us an access to God that mankind never had before. Ephesians 2:12,13 teaches, “That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.” Hebrews 10:19 reads, “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus.”

Before Christ’s death, Gentiles had no hope of access to God. The Jews did have access, but then only by and through their high priest. And he could enter into the holy of holies in the temple only once a year, and then with the blood of animals for the remission of sins for himself and the people. Now, by the blood of Jesus, that is, after His death, we all, both Jews and Gentiles, can have direct access to God.

The blood of Christ has redeemed us from sin and given us access to God. We can thank God that we have access to Him through or by the blood of Christ, but our prayers should be made in His Name, and not by His blood (Eph. 5:20).

THE MISUSE OF GOD’S WORD
The Word of God becomes distorted if terms and expressions from it are misunderstood and misused. This causes confusion among God’s people and takes their minds from the truth. The plan of Satan has always been to twist God’s Word and make it mean something it does not in an attempt to make people stray from the truth. We see this in his first recorded contact with mankind in Genesis 3:1-5. There we read that Satan approached Eve. She told him what she heard from Adam; what God had said about eating the fruit of a particular tree in the garden. This had been God’s Word to Eve at the time, which she was to have taken by faith.

Satan did not deny outright what God said. Instead, he brought into question the interpretation of God’s Word. He told her she would be as gods, knowing good and evil, if she ate of the fruit that God had forbidden. And so it has been ever since that people have followed Satan’s lead and have misused the Word of God for their own purposes.

Whereas at the very beginning of the Bible we observe the misuse and abuse of God’s Word by Satan, it is interesting that at the end of the Bible we find a clear message as to the penalty for such misuse and abuse. God has let us know His will regarding how His Word is to be used many places in the Bible. But, through the Apostle John in Revelation 22:18,19 He reveals: “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

These words may be written directly in reference to the Book of Revelation, but their application cannot help but extend to the entire Word of God. At any rate, they remind us to be very careful of how we use His Word, how we interpret it, and how we teach it.

CONCLUSION
From Moses we learn the lesson that Jesus Christ was to be struck but once, that is, He was to suffer and die once. In Exodus 17:6, Moses was instructed by God to strike the rock in Horeb and as a result life-giving water would come out for the children of Israel to drink. The rock was a type of Christ in that Christ was to be struck only once. “But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:12). Moses sinned, as recorded in Numbers 20:8-12, when he disobeyed God by striking the rock a second time, instead of speaking to it as commanded. As a result, Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land.

Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to pray for things by the blood of Jesus. To do so is a misuse of a wonderful truth. Jesus, the perfect man (For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, Col. 2:9), died on the Cross carrying all our sins on Himself. The work of that death and His blood was carried out then and we are forever grateful for what His precious blood did for us. It redeemed us from our sins and so bought our salvation, and it allowed us to have access to Almighty God.

But, thank God, our Lord Jesus Christ is dead no longer. He is risen triumphant and He sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us at this present time (Rom. 8:34). In fact, it is through Him that we have access by one Spirit unto the Father (Eph. 2:18). He is the Head over all things and we believers are His Body (Eph. 1:15-23; 3:14-19). We are to pray directly to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We don’t, as Moses did, strike the rock the second time by praying to God by the blood of Jesus that long ago completed its wonderful work. We pray to God in the name of the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Praise God!!! See also Philippians 4:6,7; I Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 7:25.


Later we can go through all the verses and parse them exegetically for
the readers sake.

J.

 

[civic]

It's about you, as we are considering in this thread how YOU are forgiven and transformed.
God does not need forgiveness or change. Right?

So, we are talking about you, me, @Johann and the Sikh who stole 1000 USD from us.
In the same way, Paul was addressing the needs of real human beings in his church.
What crucifixion, burial, resurrection, Ascencion of Christ meant for the daily life of those real human beings, who were quarreling.

I agree, as long as we define what faith is.
Remember, any demon can give us a wonderful lecture on the person and works of Christ... and that demon is not saved.
So, faith does not equal formal creeds or intellectual assents. It entails living up to principles and teachings.

its by the gospel message, believing, receiving the message concerning Christ- who He is, what He has done and confessing Him as Lord. I spelled out what the bible says and defines as the gospel of Christ earlier today- those are the "essential" elements of the gospel as outlined by Jesus and the Apostles for the forgiveness of ones sins. The atonement for sins has not changed- its the blood of Jesus that cleanses one from sin. Jesus and the Apostles taught this fundamental truth. As John says one must confess their sins and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our sins. 1 John 1:7-9.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

its by the gospel message, believing, receiving the message concerning Christ-

Dear civic

It is not about receiving the message concerning Christ (the things that are said about Christ) but about practicing the Message of Christ (what He wants us to do)
Many Evangelical pastors have misled their congregations making them think that if they accept as valid certain things that are said concerning Christ (who He is, what he did) then they are saved. This is an error: the wickest man could give us a great lecture on who Christ is and what He has done, and confess it as Lord. Do you agree?

So, “Christ was crucified” is only a fact, but salvation is about…

• “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20)
• “knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we should no longer be slaves to sin. (Rom 6:6)
• Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
• If any man would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. (Mark 8:34)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The precious blood shed still efficacious with ongoing results brother. Here is where you are going wrong.
1 John 1:7 (Lexham Bible):
"But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

I have two comments on this statement

1. The condition set in 1 John 1:7 that allows the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin is NOT the belief in blood atonement, but “to walk in the light” and to have “fellowship with one another”. Again, again and again, creeds do not save, but walking the path of love.
2. The “blood” here, is as metaphorical as “the water” and “the word” that Jesus uses to cleanse the believers: “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Ephesians 5:25,26)

So, based on Epehesians 5:25,26, how does Jesus cleanse sins? With blood, water or the word?
The answer is all of them (symbolically) and none of them (literally)!
Literally speaking, the blood does not cleanse, the water of baptism does not cleanse, and the word does not cleanse. But if we are genuinely repent and confess our sins, we are cleansed by blood, water, word, and any other symbol.