Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I was a Baptist. I did not agree with all 5..
so I would not put all baptists down as 5 pointers.
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
- Start date
so I would not put all baptists down as 5 pointers.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
MTMattie
Active Member
Any church that hangs it hat on the statements in
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Predestined unto Life in Christ
3 different presentations... they all say the same
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angelsf are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.g
f 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41.
g Rom. 9:22,23; Eph. 1:5,6; Prov. 16:4.
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7]
So God deliberately made people for eternal death. Some have said eternal damnation.
This is not a document I would ever care to research for any purpose.
It is interesting how it also covers Calvin's belief in baby baptisms.....
A great brainwashing tool. It should be burned ....
Why don't I just read what "they" say?
atpollard
Active Member
Why do you think the authors of the confession used "predestined" and "fore-ordained"?
If God made both and is equal in his desire/responsibility, why were the authors so careful to use different words?
They never claimed "prerdestined to everlasting death" or fore-ordained to unto everlasting life".
Did you ever notice that SCRIPTURE is also crystal clear that many go to HELL and some go to HEAVEN?
Did you ever notice that SCRIPTURE only ever talks about "chosen", "elect", "predestined" to LIFE ... it never speaks of anyone "predestined to death"?
Is it not curious that both the AUTHORS of the WCF and the authors of the BIBLE made that same distinction in terminolgy?
Both acknowledge HEAVEN and HELL as destinations for many people.
Both acknowledge that God "predestines to LIFE" and death is something other than "predestination".
atpollard
Active Member
Have at it ...
- [1Ti 5:21 ESV] 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
- [Mat 25:41 ESV] 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
- [Rom 9:22-23 ESV] 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
- [Eph 1:5-6 ESV] 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
- [Pro 16:4 ESV] 4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
... so, is "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death." [WCF Chapter 3] TRUE or FALSE based on what GOD said (quoted above)?
Is there any place other than life and death? If not and some are predestined to life, then the rest are predestined to death. But the real question is not whether some are predestined to life and the rest are predestined to death. The real question is the basis upon which the predestination occurs. And to that question, the Reformed community has it all wrong.
atpollard
Active Member
Yet the BIBLE never, ever states this, does it.
How curious.
Human reasoning DEMANDS that it must be so and MEN argue over the details of HOW it is so, but the “Holy Spirit” inspired a message that REFUSED to state that it was so. Perhaps God knows something that we do not. Perhaps His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts beyond our understanding. Perhaps we see through a mirror dimly.
More likely you are ignoring the obvious. Particularly since you fail to understand the truth of predestination even to life.
MTMattie
Active Member
FYI
The Westminster Confession of Faith, or simply the Westminster Confession, is a Reformed confession of faith. Drawn up by the 1646 Westminster Assembly as part of the Westminster Standards to be a confession of the Church of England, ~ WIKI
The Westminster Confession of Faith, drawn up in the 1640s by an assembly of 151 theologians (mostly Presbyterians and Puritans) at Westminster Abbey, is the standard of doctrine for the Church of Scotland and many Presbyterian churches throughout the world. Several other denominations, including Baptists and Congregationalists, have used adaptations of the Westminster Confession of Faith as a basis for their own doctrinal statements. In each case, the Westminster Confession is considered subordinate to the Bible.~ Got Questions
The Westminster Confession of Faith, drawn up in the 1640s by an assembly of 151 theologians (mostly Presbyterians and Puritans) at Westminster Abbey, is the standard of doctrine for the Church of Scotland and many Presbyterian churches throughout the world. Several other denominations, including Baptists and Congregationalists, have used adaptations of the Westminster Confession of Faith as a basis for their own doctrinal statements. In each case, the Westminster Confession is considered subordinate to the Bible.~ Got Questions
A learning point.
What is the Westminster Confession of Faith? | GotQuestions.org
What is the Westminster Confession of Faith? Is the Westminster Confession of Faith a good summary of Christian doctrine? Are there any doctrinal problems with the Westminster Confession of Faith?
www.gotquestions.org
From about 1537 Protestant Reformed groups in Europe had seen the need to draw up their own formal doctrinal confessions. This need arose in England after King Henry VIII broke with the Church of Rome in 1536 and the 1545 convening of the Council of Trent, which marked the beginning of today’s Roman Catholic Church. Under the rule of England’s Charles I, many Puritans in England dispersed, and civil war broke out in 1642. The Puritan parliament then called a church synod—the Westminster Assembly—to lay the foundation for a Reformed Church of England. The resulting document did not solve all the religious and political strife in England, but it did provide a brilliantly written and influential statement of biblical doctrine. The Westminster Confession of Faith is considered by many to be the best statement of systematic theology ever framed by the Christian church. As an attempt to “correctly handle the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15), the Westminster Confession of Faith has stood the test of time and remains a prime doctrinal standard for Protestants and evangelicals everywhere.
brightfame52
Active Member
Good document, I agree with it and the scriptures set forth.
atpollard
Active Member
I got some problems with “baptizin dem babies”.
… but, generally, I agree.[although the language tends to be about as much fun as reading a KJV bible].
I find the Heidelberg Catechism gives you 90% of the bang for 20% of the fuss.
MTMattie
Active Member
I find all of them tedious. And my church has decided to quote from different ones each Sunday.I got some problems with “baptizin dem babies”.
[although the language tends to be about as much fun as reading a KJV bible].
I find the Heidelberg Catechism gives you 90% of the bang for 20% of the fuss.
atpollard
Active Member
Tedious, yes, ... but I like Catechisms that make statements and include a link to verses that they believe support the statement.
It serves as a sort of "advanced concordance" for locating which chapters to read first when exploring a subject. Then you can reach your own conclusions about what the author had in mind based on the biblical context.
I like the Heidelberg Catechism because it is one of the oldest and predates a lot of the Calvinism vs Arminianism fine-point arguments, yet it doesn't add all of the RCC "Tradition" teaching as Biblical Fact ... and it includes scripture links so you can go all Berean on them.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah, I was agreeing with the quoted portion.I got some problems with “baptizin dem babies”.
[although the language tends to be about as much fun as reading a KJV bible].
I find the Heidelberg Catechism gives you 90% of the bang for 20% of the fuss.
atpollard
Active Member
Behold
Active Member
The idea that "God predestines it all" , is based on John Calvinism, who was very educated but kinda stupid when it came to realising the NT, "doctrinally".
See, here is what he did.. He read.....>>"God's Foreknowledge"..........and that means that God KNOWS everything BEFORE.. it happens next.....and He didnt understand this definition, so, he falsely redefined God Knowing it all is "God predestined it all".
And he sold this false doctrine of "predestination".... to innocent people who became decived by it....and they evolved it into more false (TULIP) Doctrine, and this is taught by deceived People on Fourms like this one, and in Pulpits, and in commentaries, and in Youtube Videos, and on "Calvinism" websites and on TV.
So, one mans wrong comprehension of " God's Foreknowledge" became this HUGE 500 yr old = universal LIE that is " " God predestined" it all., that has lasted for 500 yrs, and just keeps growing and mind blinding people, who then define themselves as "Calvinists".
Result?
God creates CHRISTIANS
Calvin creates Calvinists
These are not the same.
See, here is what he did.. He read.....>>"God's Foreknowledge"..........and that means that God KNOWS everything BEFORE.. it happens next.....and He didnt understand this definition, so, he falsely redefined God Knowing it all is "God predestined it all".
And he sold this false doctrine of "predestination".... to innocent people who became decived by it....and they evolved it into more false (TULIP) Doctrine, and this is taught by deceived People on Fourms like this one, and in Pulpits, and in commentaries, and in Youtube Videos, and on "Calvinism" websites and on TV.
So, one mans wrong comprehension of " God's Foreknowledge" became this HUGE 500 yr old = universal LIE that is " " God predestined" it all., that has lasted for 500 yrs, and just keeps growing and mind blinding people, who then define themselves as "Calvinists".
Result?
God creates CHRISTIANS
Calvin creates Calvinists
These are not the same.
atpollard
Active Member
Here I thought the idea came from God ...
Eph 1:11 ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Rom 11:33 ... O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Hbr 6:17 ... Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Rom 9:15 ... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:18 ... Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Recurring theme of scripture: God does not TRY or ASK PERMISSION, God just DOES (and He does "just because" He is God.)
It goes with the job description.
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