Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[civic]

You are ... I am trying desperately to leave an unprofitable topic.
[But that was a clever TIT FOR TAT]

No worries

 

[atpollard]

Nothing you have shown would convince us of total inability.

Bad news ... as an Arminian, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to convince people of Truth: they are saved or damned based on YOUR ability.

Good news ... I am not an Arminian, so it is a Sovereign God that has both the POWER and RESPONSIBILITY to convince people of Truth: People are saved or damned on God's ability and not my ability.

If I was unable with the help of God. then my gripe still stands

See above and take your "gripe" to God. I merely present what God says as Truth. The relationship between YOU and HIM is none of my business.

God still forces people to believe,

"Forces" is a strange term. I think "Empowers" or "Enables" is more accurate. Did your "significant other" (husband or wife) FORCE you to fall in love with them? Even if they "made" you fall in love with them through their actions and character ... do you object to it?

and refuses to allow others the possibility to believe, hence in reality forcing them to not Believe.,

While there are some HARD DETERMINISTS that believe this, most do not and even the WCF makes a distinction between God's relationship to the saved and his relationship to the lost "implying" they are not equal and opposite [ie. God does not 'push away']. In any event, I am a Particular Baptist (so I reject the WCF) and embrace Compatibalism. God does not "refuse to allow" anyone to believe. Everyone is honestly invited to believe. EVERYONE Freely follows their fallen will and refuses to believe. God is not willing to allow EVERYONE to perish (which would be JUSTICE), so MERCY extends Grace (undeserved Favor) to some and saved then "against their fallen will" by giving them a NEW WILL. So some are permitted the Justice they freely choose and others are DRAWN into a Mercy they do not deserve. No one experiences "Injustice".

This is not the god of the bible

I believe, based upon Romans 3 and Romans 8 and Romans 9 and John 3 and Ephesians 2 and a plethora of other places, that this is EXACTLY the God of the Bible ... a God of Justice and Mercy.

For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. - Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Bad news ... as an Arminian, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to convince people of Truth: they are saved or damned based on YOUR ability.

well I am not an arminian.

so just like the person in another thread who is accusing me of being a calvinist.

Your already a day late and dollar short as they say. You can not appose me, or like I told him, debate with me, when you do nto even know what I believe.

I reject arminian theology
I reject calvinist theology.

Good news ... I am not an Arminian, so it is a Sovereign God that has both the POWER and RESPONSIBILITY to convince people of Truth: People are saved or damned on God's ability and not my ability.

No. Your a calvinist.

See above and take your "gripe" to God. I merely present what God says as Truth. The relationship between YOU and HIM is none of my business.

No. My gripe is with fatalism.

If God can not HELP me to chose. then my gripe still stands, according to what you said, God can not help me

"Forces" is a strange term. I think "Empowers" or "Enables" is more accurate. Did your "significant other" (husband or wife) FORCE you to fall in love with them? Even if they "made" you fall in love with them through their actions and character ... do you object to it?

Keep denying it.. Thats on you

While there are some HARD DETERMINISTS that believe this, most do not and even the WCF makes a distinction between God's relationship to the saved and his relationship to the lost "implying" they are not equal and opposite [ie. God does not 'push away']. In any event, I am a Particular Baptist (so I reject the WCF) and embrace Compatibalism. God does not "refuse to allow" anyone to believe. Everyone is honestly invited to believe. EVERYONE Freely follows their fallen will and refuses to believe. God is not willing to allow EVERYONE to perish (which would be JUSTICE), so MERCY extends Grace (undeserved Favor) to some and saved then "against their fallen will" by giving them a NEW WILL. So some are permitted the Justice they freely choose and others are DRAWN into a Mercy they do not deserve. No one experiences "Injustice".

alot of word salad here

If God will not allow you to believe, because you are unable.

then God in effect forces you to not believe.

I believe, based upon Romans 3 and Romans 8 and Romans 9 and John 3 and Ephesians 2 and a plethora of other places, that this is EXACTLY the God of the Bible ... a God of Justice and Mercy.

For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. - Romans 9:15-16 [NLT]

Yep He is the God of mercy - All have sinned and fall short

He is also the God of love - He died for every person who ever lived. so that whoever believes in him will never perish, but live forever.

you can;t claim someone has perfect love, when they do not love everyone.. Selective love is not love

 

[GodsGrace]

The law is not even a command.

God did not say keep this and you will be saved

On the contrary, he said cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word,

Thats how the law is to lead us, as we realise, we are curated. Because we did not heed and obey every word

And neither can we obey every word or command.
We can only do our best.
We have the free will to present ourselves to the one who we will obey:

Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we wish to obey....
Free Will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure it is …

… all appearances to the contrary not withstanding.

The Essence of the Gospel​

Charles Haddon Spurgeon December 4, 1870

Who doesn't like C. Spurgeon?
John Calvin also gave excellent sermons.
So does MacArthur and Sproul.

But there's a difference between their preaching and their teaching.
Preaching has its own purpose....one of which is to comfort the hearer and provide some
nourishment at the end of a week. To give them hope and show God's love for them.

Teaching will actually provide what any given denomination believes that the bible is stating to man...
God revealing what He expects from man...how to become saved...and all such other theology.

Although Calvin's sermons were good....his writing is what offers, to us, what he taught.
What he taught will be found in The Institutes....

Therein there is no gospel to be found...
no hope to be found....

Just a God that does not practice justice and does not love mankind...
the very mankind He created. What kind of a God would create human kind to send most of them to damnation,
and for no reason that can possibly be determined?

Not a God any of us should be worshipping.

Calvinists feel better than other Christians because they feel they can accept a God that others cannot.
But some Calvinists leave Christianity altogether because it's difficult to come to terms with such an unmerciful God.


So, I would say that we should learn what Calvinism teaches....
What it preaches sounds really good, but is not what it teaches.

 

[GodsGrace]

That does not say man is able to seek God. It's simply stating what man should do not what he necessarily has the moral ability or desire to do.

No further comment Presby.

Those reading along can clearly see what the verses I posted state.

 

[GodsGrace]

You know exactly what it means. Abraham knew the gospel. How you ask? Great question. Because it was preached to him. You know. Like the text says.

However you need to cope. Glad I can help

“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”​

― Alan Greenspan

 

[GodsGrace]

... and THAT is why I respond to verses that you post. Even if we disagree on the exegesis (which of course we will or we would not be having a conversation, we would just be offering 'likes' to posts in another conversation), you are at least willing to extend the courtesy of talking about the verse I actually posted beyond "no, it means the opposite of what it says because [insert 10 other verses]".

Are you referring to me??
I addressed the verse you posted in two different ways:
1. I addressed the word DRAW.
2. I addressed TOTAL INABILITY

I posted 10 verse PROVING that God commands man to SEEK HIM.
There were at least 30 more, but felt 10 should suffice.

THIS was to show the CONFLICT that calvinism causes.
Either John 6:44 is correct and all those verses are wrong...

or

There's a different explanation for John 6:44
and I also offered different explanations by exegeting 6:44....

If you don't accept them...then that's is what you should say....
NOT criticize my posts.

It's impossible to have a decent conversation with the reformed....
sooner or later it turns ugly and personal insults are strewn about.

Sadly, this feels more "tag-team" than "conversation" since whoever I respond to ... someone other than that person seems to want to respond to my post. So, I have given up attempting to convince @GodsGrace and @Eternally-Grateful of the truth of "Total Inability" [the point that both Calvinsts and Arminians agreed upon since scripture was so clear on the need for God to do something to initiate saving a fallen people].

This is a public and open forum and thread and anyone can reply to any member.
It is not to be thought of as a private conversation between you and the other member.
You are free to reply or not to any post....just as your usual MO is to ignore me 90% of the time.
So, apparently, you know how this works.

And, atpollard, you shouldn't think so highly of yourself that you think you could convince that their belief system is wrong.
That is rather proudful of you.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY/INABILITY does not exist in the NT.
So how do you think you could convince anyone of any other denomination of a teaching that is not in the bible??

And it would be nice if the reformed stopped defining others as arminiuns.
Most of us don't know who Arminius was and we don't care.
We trust our bible.

God did something to attract/invite persons to salvation...
but IT IS NOT what the reformed/calvinist teach.

God DOES NOT choose who will be saved and who will be lost.
Man has the free will to decide if he wishes to be saved or not.

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." - Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]​

... THESE people were never going to be able to choose God without some help from God. John Wesley called that help "prevenient grace". Luther called that help the "mystery of Grace". Reformed called that help "Irresistible Grace" (in the 1900's). Classic Arminians called it "Human Inability". However all agreed that GOD must make the first move and disagreed on "WHO" and "HOW" of that move ... but agreed on the NEED FOR God's "something".

WHERE does Ephesians 2:1-3 state that those people were NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE to go to God on their own?
How many more verses should I post stating that MAN CAN SEEK GOD?

I've mentioned PREVENIENT GRACE to you several times over the years.
GOD MUST MAKE THE FIRST MOVE.
Right.

BUT God does not CHOOSE who will be saved based on nothing that we can know....
calling it all a mystery.

God is not mysterious.
He revealed Himself to us so that we can know Him.
So that we can spend eternity with Him.

WHY would Jesus have had to die IF God is going to choose who will be saved??

Even YOU acknowledge that something in John 6:44 ... "the ones who have heard from the Father, learned from the Father and are drawn by the Father to the Son" ... which is different from those who stand and deny any inability on the part of man and refuse to discuss John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..." except to say that "GOD DRAWS EVERYONE" as a simple "taint so" to the scripture I presented.

More than 10 verses are a simple TAINT SO??
Some intellectual honesty would be nice.

And you want to stop at NO ONE CAN COME TO ME??

Nice atpollard.
Have you ever heard of CONTEXT?

I want to stop at:
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD....

Ah. But most Calvinists don't believe God loves everyone.
Looks like He even hated Esau.

So do we just all STOP at our favorite few words without using any context?



Did God create evil? Looks like He did ! Judging from this one verse.
Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Presby02]

“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”​

― Alan Greenspan

Do you know what he means? LOL

 

[Presby02]

No further comment Presby.

Those reading along can clearly see what the verses I posted state.

I agree. The problem is they do not say what you claim you say.

My point stands. Not every last person has been invited. It's hard to be invited if you never recieve a invitation.

Also, as has been rightly pointed out, Romans one, CONTEXTUALLY, has nothing to do with the gospel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree. The problem is they do not say what you claim you say.

My point stands. Not every last person has been invited. It's hard to be invited if you never recieve a invitation.

Also, as has been rightly pointed out, Romans one, CONTEXTUALLY, has nothing to do with the gospel.

Jesus came to save the world. Not select individuals that God lifts up on a pedestal for whatever reason that makes them great people. and with holding his salvation from others. and remember, Few enter by the narrow gate. so few are chosen.. What does that say about a loving God?

 

[Presby02]

Jesus came to save the world. Not select individuals that God lifts up on a pedestal for whatever reason that makes them great people. and with holding his salvation from others. and remember, Few enter by the narrow gate. so few are chosen.. What does that say about a loving God?

God does not "withhold salvation". Those who want to be saved are saved. The problem is not one does unless God acts.

Why wouldn't your "loving God" simply save everyone?

 

[civic]

I agree. The problem is they do not say what you claim you say.

My point stands. Not every last person has been invited. It's hard to be invited if you never recieve a invitation.

Also, as has been rightly pointed out, Romans one, CONTEXTUALLY, has nothing to do with the gospel.

The gospel is mentioned by Paul no less than 5 times in the first 17 verses.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God does not "withhold salvation". Those who want to be saved are saved. The problem is not one does unless God acts.

Then God withholds from those in which he does not act

Why wouldn't your "loving God" simply save everyone?

He is offering salvation to everyone. that's why he is loving.

because he does not force it on everyone means some will freely chose to reject his gift of salvation.

THEN the end is on them not God..

God gets the glory, he offered them salvation they willfully rejected him

there is no glory for God in fatalism

 

[Presby02]

The gospel is mentioned by Paul no less than 5 times in the first 17 verses.

Ya, and?

 

[Presby02]

Then God withholds from those in which he does not act

He is offering salvation to everyone. that's why he is loving.

because he does not force it on everyone means some will freely chose to reject his gift of salvation.

THEN the end is on them not God..

God gets the glory, he offered them salvation they willfully rejected him

there is no glory for God in fatalism

Loving would be to save all despite themselves. Would you watch your child burn simply because they will not call you Father??

No one says He forces anyone.

No one here is a fatalist.

 

[Presby02]

Jesus came to save the world. Not select individuals that God lifts up on a pedestal for whatever reason that makes them great people. and with holding his salvation from others. and remember, Few enter by the narrow gate. so few are chosen.. What does that say about a loving God?

Then He is a miserable failure. The whole world will not be saved despite His best efforts. However tge Bible does say "He WILL save His people from their sins."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Loving would be to save all despite themselves.

no. Because when you do not hold people accountable. you do not love them..No judgment means no responsibility.. A parent that does not chasten their kids and just lets them get away with anything does not love that child

Would you watch your child burn simply because they will not call you Father??

Love can not overrule justice.

No one says He forces anyone.

Yes you do.. even though you do not use the words.

the fact you can not see this is troublesome

No one here is a fatalist.

lol there are alot of fatalists here my friend..

sadly,, they all deny it.. Its no different in a person who teaches salvation by works yet deny they teach works.

just because people deny it. does not mean it is reality

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then He is a miserable failure. The whole world will not be saved despite His best efforts. However tge Bible does say "He WILL save His people from their sins."

nope.

He did not fail them, They failed.

You are talking fatalist language.. Open up your mind, and you will see..

God came to save everyone, He will not force them though.

 

[Presby02]

no. Because when you do not hold people accountable. you do not love them..No judgment means no responsibility.. A parent that does not chasten their kids and just lets them get away with anything does not love that child

Love can not overrule justice.


Yes you do.. even though you do not use the words.

the fact you can not see this is troublesome

lol there are alot of fatalists here my friend..

sadly,, they all deny it.. Its no different in a person who teaches salvation by works yet deny they teach works.

just because people deny it. does not mean it is reality

Really? So you bear no responsibility for Christ's death? Interesting

Then your in trouble. We all are. We don't not get what we rightly deserve.

We deny because we are not fatalists. Do you believe God is omniscient? If so you are also a fatalist.

Define fatalism.