civic
Well-known member
yes by default calvins predestination is actually double predestination. There is no other option.
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
- Start date
Exactly right. AMEN!
atpollard
Well-known member
Respectfully, the Bible is FULL of Paradoxes.
- Last shall be first, and first shall be last.
- those that seek to save their life shall loose it, and those that loose their life shall gain it.
- God chose the foolish things to shame/confound the wise.
- Many are called, but few are chosen.
- God is love ... God hated Esau.
- Choose this day who you will serve ... You did not choose me, but I chose you.
- "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:16] ... but ... "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" [Philippians 2:12] ... but ... "it is God who works in you both to will and to do" [Philippians 2:13] ... "I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me" [Philippians 3:12]
atpollard
Well-known member
Determined, perhaps ... but SCRIPTURE only uses "predestined" in reference to the Elect and Salvation, so the WCF and Baptist equivalent chose a different word for the damned since SCRIPTURE indicates an unequal relationship between God and those he DRAWS to salvation and God and those he does not. WCF says "ordains" lost and "predestines" the saved. Baptists describe "leaving the rest". They (the confessions and scripture) make a distinction, so I do as well.
atpollard
Well-known member
Absolutely not.
... And what some claim is a "direct logical contradiction" may merely be a paradox, or as the Lutherans would describe it, a "Mystery".
atpollard
Well-known member
Darn good thing NOBODY joined his church!
The DoG allow for other options alongside HARD DETERMINISM and DOUBLE PREDESTINATION as Supalapsarianism.
Dizerner
Well-known member
TibiasDad
Well-known member
It is not a paradox, but a logical necessity to say that if all members humanity are lost; and all who are lost will either be saved or remain lost.Respectfully, the Bible is FULL of Paradoxes.
That any systematic theology (like the Doctrines of Grace) acknowledges a Biblical paradox should really come as no surprise.
- Last shall be first, and first shall be last.
- those that seek to save their life shall loose it, and those that loose their life shall gain it.
- God chose the foolish things to shame/confound the wise.
- Many are called, but few are chosen.
- God is love ... God hated Esau.
- Choose this day who you will serve ... You did not choose me, but I chose you.
- "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." [Romans 9:16] ... but ... "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" [Philippians 2:12] ... but ... "it is God who works in you both to will and to do" [Philippians 2:13] ... "I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me" [Philippians 3:12]
Your theology says that God has predestined some of humanity to be saved without recourse. These are the only people who can be and will be saved; the rest are without hope.
The predestination of group A to be the only ones saved makes the predestination of group B, all who are not predestined to be saved, are just as determined/predestined to be lost without hope as those who are to be ultimately saved. The limited and closed nature of group A enforces the closed nature of group B. Group B is equally determined as group A. Neither group has any real choice, for God has chosen the outcome beforehand, “before the foundation of the world”.
Doug
GodsGrace
Well-known member
More reformed foolishness.
Double predestination: To be or not to be.
IF God predestinates those that will be saved....
and just goes over those that are not chosen....
Does He not, by not picking those He just goes over...
predestine them to hell?
The confessions speak of double-predestination and how God does not employ
double predestination.
IOW,,, God is only responsible for SAVING those He wishes to be saved....
But
He is NOT responsible for the lost.
Reminds me of Richard Nixon and Watergate and what was said of Nixon:
Nixon originally claimed he knew nothing about it.
This is what a reporter stated:
NIXON WAS EITHER RESPONSIBLE
OR IRRISPONSIBLE.
Can we say this about God?
May it never be!
John Calvin was not afraid to state the truth of Calvinism and not try to sugar-coat it as the confessions do.
This is what John Calvin taught:
This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5
atpollard
Well-known member
Unless you are prepared to argue that some people are born SAVED ... then that statement holds equally true for any FREE WILL theology as well.
It is not an "if".
Let us stay within the "orthodoxy" of what Scripture teaches.
Does God desire all men to be saved?
Are all men saved?
... then there is a paradox (unless we discard the OMNI-everything definition of God and place "god" alongside Zeus as a limited being.)
atpollard
Well-known member
As an argument of HUMAN LOGIC ... yes.
However, SCRIPTURE (the 'norma normans non normata') does not say that.
Scripture is clear that God predestines to salvation and Scripture NEVER claims God as responsible for (or uses the term "predestine" for) damnation.
As good stewards of SOLA SCRIPTURA ... we will not state what is contrary to scripture. We accept the "Mystery" (Lutheran) or "paradox" (vernacular) that is present in Scripture.
You may INVENT a human will that supersedes God's will and both CONTRADICTS the verses on predestination in scripture and creates a HUMAN LOGIC impossibility of a God subservient to His creation ... but we will not accept you fantasy as scripture.
atpollard
Well-known member
No, an actual contradiction is "How many angels were in Jesus' tomb according to the Gospels?"
Dizerner
Well-known member
Huh?
They do not make a definitive statement on it.
There were thousands in there no doubt.
atpollard
Well-known member
Incorrect.
There were multiple women that entered the tomb and multiple Gospels that recorded what they saw.
Thousands of angels were not seen in Jesus tomb.
Feel free to read the accounts for yourself.
You should never take my word for it, but channel your inner Berean.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I don’t believe I suggested that this wasn’t true for us: all men are lost! All men will either be saved or lost.
I used to”if” as an expression of assumption of facts. Such as- if all men are lost, and if some men believe and are saved, while others don’t believe and are not saved…
Yes
No
That is not a paradox; it is an assumption of the fact that all are lost but not all are saved.
A paradox is two statements that appear to be contradictory are both true, a paradoxical statement from your perspective would be “ God loves and desires all men to be saved yet only decrees some to be saved.”
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
But this is what you believe isn’t it?
Keep sticking your head in the sand, my brother, and you’ll suffocate. If you decide that only X number can come to your birthday party then all others are irrevocably excluded from the number of those whom you have chosen to come. You can’t have one without the other!
God saves all who believe that Christ died for their sins. Christ died for “the sins of the whole world” so that all may believe!
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
“I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
Richard Nixon
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