Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

Agreed, but the U of the Doctrine of Grace is Unconditional Election (the biblical term, “unconditional selection” might be a more modern vernacular). The point is not that there are no conditions to salvation or to the draw (as you stated, there clearly are conditions to MANY things). The point is that it was no innate condition of merit in those that are saved/drawn that prompted God/Christ to draw and save them.
What are the conditions to salvation?
Simply put, NOBODY is saved by God because we DESERVE it (a CONDITION that warrants MERIT), all are saved “UNCONDITIONALLY” (from the perspective of human merit).
No Christian believes a person is saved by MERIT....
but by faith.

God chooses because it pleases God to choose, not because we deserve choosing.
What does God choose?
If God chooses who will be saved...
then, again, what are the conditions?

Above you state because it pleases God to choose.
So does He let us know the conditions??


In John 6:44, there is no condition of merit, no stated action, that earns the draw. The only condition is “the Father”. It is CONDITIONAL on God’s grace. It is UNCONDITIONAL from human action or merit.
Oh. It is conditional on God's grace.
Just as all Christians believe.

The difference is that other Christians KNOW what God's conditions are.
He has made known to His creatures what they can do to be saved.
His grace----->through our faith in Jesus----->causes salvation.

I suppose God does not let the reformed know what they should do to be saved.
This is a big difference.
 
The word DRAW in John 6:44 means “draw” … like a sword or a net or attention.

If the sword comes out of the sheath it was drawn.
If the sword remains in the sheath, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the net comes out of the water it was drawn.
If the net remains in the water, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the attention focuses on the target it was drawn.
If the attention never notices the target, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the person comes to the Son, he was drawn.
If the person does not come to the Son, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

The CALL may be resisted, but not the DRAW.
You say the CALL may be resisted,
but not the DRAW.
Is there scripture regarding this?

BTW, This is good to know.
IF the DRAW cannot be resisted...
It means all men will be saved.



John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will
draw all men to Myself."

Universalism.
 
The word DRAW in John 6:44 means “draw” … like a sword or a net or attention.

If the sword comes out of the sheath it was drawn.
If the sword remains in the sheath, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the net comes out of the water it was drawn.
If the net remains in the water, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the attention focuses on the target it was drawn.
If the attention never notices the target, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

If the person comes to the Son, he was drawn.
If the person does not come to the Son, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

The CALL may be resisted, but not the DRAW.
We are not literal swords; metaphorical meanings are not meant to be interpreted literally. Drawing one’s attention may or may not be successful in its intended goal. Ask any preacher about the success of their sermon each week for proof of that.
I may get your attention, but that doesn’t mean I convince you! Your response to my post is evidence of that.


Doug
 
We are not literal swords; metaphorical meanings are not meant to be interpreted literally. Drawing one’s attention may or may not be successful in its intended goal. Ask any preacher about the success of their sermon each week for proof of that.
I may get your attention, but that doesn’t mean I convince you! Your response to my post is evidence of that.


Doug
If the person comes to the Son, he was drawn.
If the person does not come to the Son, that was NOT A DRAW.
The definition of draw will not permit an action to be resisted (then it would be “not drawn”).

The CALL may be resisted, but not the DRAW.
 
I may get your attention, but that doesn’t mean I convince you!
You do not “get my attention” if I do not notice you, so even a metaphorical DRAW must DRAW or it is a NOT DRAW.

If I stand in a crowded room jumping up and down and waving my arms in an attempt to “draw” your attention, but you never notice me in the crowd so you never pay any attention to me … Did I DRAW your eye to me (metaphorically) or did I NOT DRAW your eye to me?
 
You do not “get my attention” if I do not notice you, so even a metaphorical DRAW must DRAW or it is a NOT DRAW.
The Pharisees were drawn to Jesus, but resisted. They followed him everywhere, listening to his words, engaging him in debate and conversation, but only a few actually believed.

Doug
 
What, in your view, is the difference between the two?

Doug

The Pharisees were drawn to Jesus, but resisted. They followed him everywhere, listening to his words, engaging him in debate and conversation, but only a few actually believed.

Doug

The context of John 6 answers both of these.

John 6:41-69 [NKJV]
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

[they heard the words … the call … and resisted]

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard [call] and learned from the Father [the difference] comes to Me. [draw] 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?"

(Response of those that heard … the call … but did not learn from God and come to Jesus … the draw).

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


(In the synagogue, the CALL could go out to all … and all sorts of “soils” … but only a few hearts had been prepared by the Father to receive the word, those who had learned of the Father and been DRAWN to the Son.)

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"


[Those that heard the CALL but had not the Father’s DRAW turned back … all but the ‘good soil’]

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

[The response of those not merely able to hear the CALL, but those that ‘learned of the Father’ … remember the verse about “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you” -Matthew 16:17 … and were DRAWN by the Father.]
 
The context of John 6 answers both of these.

John 6:41-69 [NKJV]
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

[they heard the words … the call … and resisted]

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard [call] and learned from the Father [the difference] comes to Me. [draw] 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?"


(Response of those that heard … the call … but did not learn from God and come to Jesus … the draw).

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


(In the synagogue, the CALL could go out to all … and all sorts of “soils” … but only a few hearts had been prepared by the Father to receive the word, those who had learned of the Father and been DRAWN to the Son.)

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"


[Those that heard the CALL but had not the Father’s DRAW turned back … all but the ‘good soil’]

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

[The response of those not merely able to hear the CALL, but those that ‘learned of the Father’ … remember the verse about “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you” -Matthew 16:17 … and were DRAWN by the Father.]
You won't reply to my posts, but I'm sure @TibiasDad will quickly notice that
John 6:45 answers John 6:44....those who HEAR and LEARN.
Not everyone who hears....will also learn.

The ones who LEARN will be given to Jesus for salvation.
John 6:44


And as to CALL....
Romans 8:28-30
So does the CALL of God participate in the golden chain or not?
Is it part of God calling the predestined or not?

Are you now saying that God could call an unpredestinated person?

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He
also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom
He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

God PREDESTINATES verse 29
then
He CALLS verse 30
In these verses,,,God Predestines FIRST and THEN He calls.


So you're saying that God could CALL an unsaved, unpredestinated person?

That would make the Golden Chain fall apart.
 
The context of John 6 answers both of these.

John 6:41-69 [NKJV]
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

[they heard the words … the call … and resisted]

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard [call] and learned from the Father [the difference] comes to Me. [draw] 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?"


(Response of those that heard … the call … but did not learn from God and come to Jesus … the draw).

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.


(In the synagogue, the CALL could go out to all … and all sorts of “soils” … but only a few hearts had been prepared by the Father to receive the word, those who had learned of the Father and been DRAWN to the Son.)

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"


[Those that heard the CALL but had not the Father’s DRAW turned back … all but the ‘good soil’]

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

[The response of those not merely able to hear the CALL, but those that ‘learned of the Father’ … remember the verse about “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you” -Matthew 16:17 … and were DRAWN by the Father.]
6:37 "All that My Father gives Me will come to Me" The primary emphasis of this passage is on the sovereignty of God (cf. John 17:2,6,9,24). The two definitive passages on this theological truth are Romans 9 and Eph. 1:3-14. It is interesting that in both contexts mankind's response is required. Romans 10 has seven all inclusive phrases. This is also the case in the discussions of God's grace in John 6:1-7 which issue in a call to faith in John 6:8,9. Predestination is a doctrine for the redeemed, not a barrier to the unsaved. The key to unlock the doctrine is the love and grace of God, not eternal decrees. Notice that all who God gives to Jesus also "come" to Him. God always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:44,65), but humans must respond (cf. John 1:12; 3:16).
"that everyone who beholds the Son" The PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLES of "beholding" and "believing" are parallel (like "comes" and "believes" in John 6:35, like "sees" and "hears"). These are ongoing actions, not one-time events. The term "beholding" meant "to gaze intently" at something so as to understand or know it.

I surely like the term "everyone" (pas), notice

that all might believe through him, John 1:7
enlightens every man, John 1:9
whoever believes may in Him have eternal life, John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life, John 3:16
that all may honor the Son, John 5:23
all that the Father gives Me, John 6:37
all that He has given Me, John 6:39
everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, John 6:40
everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, John 6:45
everyone who loves and believes in Me shall never die, John 11:26
I, if I, be lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself, John 12:32
everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness, John 12:46
This is the mystery of sovereignty (cf. John 6:38-39; 17:2,24) vs. human freewill. Both are somehow true. For me the theological concept of "covenant" unites them best!


6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:65 and 15:16). Humans are responders not initiators! All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa. 53:6). God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.

The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in John 12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa. 6:9-13; 29:13). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb. 1:1-3).

SPECIAL TOPIC: ELECTION/PREDESTINATION AND THE NEED FOR A THEOLOGICAL BALANCE

6:45 "It is written in the prophets" This is a quote from Isa. 54:13 or Jer. 31:34 which describes the internal (new heart, new mind) aspect of the "New Covenant" (cf. Ezek. 36:22-38).

"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me" It is impossible to claim to know God and reject Jesus (cf. 1 John 5:1-12).

6:46 "Not that any man has seen the Father" Jesus' affirmation is that only through Him can one really understand and know God (cf. John 1:18; 14:6,9). Even Moses never truly saw YHWH (cf. note at John 5:32).

6:47 This verse summarizes Jesus' offer of a free salvation to all humans ("the one believing," PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLE; "eternal life," cf. John 6:51,58; 3:15,16,36; 5:24; 11:26; 20:31). Jesus is the only true revelation of God, the only true door to God (the exclusivism of the gospel, cf. John 10:1-6,7-9; 14:6; 1 John 5:10-12), but this is available to all sons and daughters of Adam (the inclusivism of the gospel fulfills John 1:4,7,12; 3:16; Gen. 3:15; 12:3).

J.
 
This sentence alone shows the twisted logic of Calvinistic arguments: Being predestined to be unsaved is an unconquerable barrier to the unsaved.

Doug
Point of Order: nobody is “predestined to be unsaved”.

The Westminster Confession of Faith [Chapter 3] and the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith [Chapter 3] go to some effort to point out the inequality in God’s “predestination” to salvation and His ‘not predestination’ [they disagree on the term used for those not saved]. Both explain that the details are a MYSTERY but that the confession recognizes the reality because Scripture affirms the duality. Both offer verses.

You are certainly welcome to disagree with their conclusions (confessions are not binding, Scripture is binding Truth), however, HONESTY demands that their views be presented accurately (or you are simply attacking a ‘strawman’ of your own construction).
 
Point of Order: nobody is “predestined to be unsaved”.

The Westminster Confession of Faith [Chapter 3] and the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith [Chapter 3] go to some effort to point out the inequality in God’s “predestination” to salvation and His ‘not predestination’ [they disagree on the term used for those not saved]. Both explain that the details are a MYSTERY but that the confession recognizes the reality because Scripture affirms the duality. Both offer verses.

You are certainly welcome to disagree with their conclusions (confessions are not binding, Scripture is binding Truth), however, HONESTY demands that their views be presented accurately (or you are simply attacking a ‘strawman’ of your own construction).
There is no other logical explanation for the destination of the reprobate: if those who are saved are irrevocably predetermined by God to salvation, then all others are, by default, predetermined irrevocably to damnation. Whether or not there is a formal declaration of this, there is no other alternative than this: the fate of all souls is determined irrevocably by the will of God.


Doug
 
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