Johann
Well-known member
God bless you, brother. I’m still very much a work in progress-prone to mistakes and always in need of wise, godly counsel to help keep me accountable.
J.
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
- Start date
J.
atpollard
Well-known member
I was focusing exclusively on the “call” mentioned in Romans 8:30 … which, based on the surrounding context is a call to “those that love God” and are “predestined” and are “glorified”. For those people, the EXTERNAL CALL and the INTERNAL CALL both ultimately proved EFFECTIVE. Thus the “call” in Romans 8:30 is an effective call.
This does not negate the possibility that OTHER VERSES in scripture may speak of an ineffectual call, only that Romans 8:30 does not speak of an ineffectual call.
This does not prove that all calls are effective, nor does it disprove that some calls are ineffective. Romans 8:30 only speaks about the certainty of the efficacy of the call in Romans 8:30.
To your specific “counter verses” …
- Acts 7:51 – “You stiff-necked people... you always resist the Holy Spirit.”
- Luke 13:34 – “How often I wanted to gather your children... and you were not willing.”
- Matthew 22:3–14 – Many are invited (called) but do not respond.
If we are really to discuss PREDESTINATION and IRRESISTIBLE GRACE, not even all Jews are the true Israel, so certainly not all mankind is the CHOSEN/ELECT of God … Drawn by the Father … as many as were appointed … whose heart of stone was removed.
For ALL MEN …
- They are without excuse (Romans 1:20)
- “THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE” (Romans 3:10)
- “THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD” (Romans 3:11)
- “people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil” (John 3:19)
- “everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed” (John 3:20)
- “And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.” (Ephesians 2:1-3)
Damnation is easy, Salvation is hard.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I don't buy for one bit that Romans 8:30 is speaking only of past believers.
Looking at the context it is a constant subject of "we, we, we, we we, we," Paul is not suddenly changing the subject and it makes no sense.
The past tense is what has been done in Christ for us, whereby we must persevere to obtain, as elsewhere.
Johann
Well-known member
Granted.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Heirs with Christ
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now we know "who are those" and "them"
J.
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I think what comes after this verse is about our future when we are with the Lord, but not after a summarize of of our presence state on Earth.
A further explanation of v18, I am still the opinion Paul when he says -- the manifestation of the sons of God -- speaks about a happening in afterlife.
YMMV.
End of our stay on Earth, Paul now moves to the future when we are with the Lord.
The manifestation of the sons of God ? [v18]
Back to Earth -
A big amen.
What a beautiful chapter.
But, is my analysis right? I doubt a bit.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Actually it'd be a better idea to take ALL RELIGIOUS SYSTEMATICS, and man's "Theology in general" with a truck-load of "salt". WHy not BELIEVE THE BIBLE when it says that you can access WISDOM from the Holy Spirit, as long as you seek it "single-mindedly".
The ONE THING that "Calvinism" teaches accurately is that in EVERYTHING, GOD MOVES FIRST!!!! The rest of it you can ignore.
TULIP is a "flower", not God's WORD.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What do you mean by single-mindedly?
That we each can have our opinion?
EVERY Christian believes the entire universe is sustained by God.
Hebrews 1:2-3a
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
I've got news for you Bob....
To some TULIP is God's word.
Even though it is the teachings of the most famous of all the reformed....
John Calvin.
Your reference John 3:19-20 shows people that resisted God's drawing, *lest their deed be reproved*, ie the drawing can be resisted.
atpollard
Well-known member
I would argue that there are TWO innate conditions of people. We are born into the condition best described in Ephesians 2:1-4 … we are what Paul describes in other places as Slaves to Sin. For me, I take that to be a condition in which men have the freedom to follow their natural desires, but they also have natural desires that are tainted by sin (both being born into a fallen world, and the sin we choose to embrace as we live and learn and grow in that world). This results in the “leopard that cannot change his spots”. We are free to do whatever we will, but we are only free to WILL according to our human nature. The result is every human being (without exception) makes the free will choice to reject God’s offer of salvation. To HIDE FROM Christ and the gospel (which scripture says is foolishness to our natural minds). If God did nothing but “invite”, then HELL would be full and NO ONE would be saved. (Like Romans 3 describes).
However, GOD does not choose to do nothing. There is Ephesians 2:5-10 that describes God making alive those who are dead. It describes God giving a gift. It describes God creating a masterpiece. There is a John 6:44 that describes God the Father DRAWING to God the Son. There is the story of Lydia in Acts where God opens her heart. There is a golden chain in Romans 8 from Foreknew to Glorified. There is an OT promise to remove a heart of stone and give a heart of flesh and place a new spirit in us. In each of these, there is a specific work of God to make the “children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-4) into the God’s masterpiece (Ephesians 2:10).
So the people in John 3:19-20 did not resist the DRAW of God, they followed their ‘children of wrath’ hearts (just like the rest) - Ephesians 2:4 - because they were NOT DRAWN. Once DRAWN, they come to the light to show their good deeds are performed IN GOD per John 3:21.
Their attention must have been drawn or they wouldn't have known to avoid it. They are not just dead. But of course people must be drawn or they won't know to consider it and come.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Exactly.
Irresistible grace is not taught in scripture.
Man is free to reject God.
John 6:45 The verse right after John 6:44
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
Calvinist theology makes a ruin of the bible...
twisting even easy to understand verses to make them fit the Calvinist religion.
Isaiah 55:1
1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
Calvinism teaches that man cannot seek God. The bible is replete with directions to seek God.
COME TO THE WATERS...
COME
an action we must take..
a free will action.
Isaiah 55:3
3 "Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;
God exhorts mankind to LISTEN...that he may live.
No predestination here.
Jeremiah 31:34
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me,
Our God makes Himself be known to all men....
some come to the water....
and some do not.
Those that HEAR and LEARN come to the water...
not all who hear will learn.
Those who have heard AND LEARNED are given to Jesus by the Father for salvation...
John 6:44
Simple.
atpollard
Well-known member
If you are prepared to define THIS ...
Romans 1:18-21 [KJV]
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
... as the DRAW from John 6:44 (No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.) that results in THIS ...
John 3:19-20 [KJV]
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
... instead of THIS ...
Acts 16:14 [KJV]
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
... as the DRAW from John 6:44 that results in THIS ...Romans 8:28-30 [KJV]
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
and THIS ...
Ezekiel 36:26-27 [KJV]
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
... then only the HOLY SPIRIT can give you eyes to see the difference.
Johann
Well-known member
AH! Now we are going somewhere, mention the Holy Spirit and the Scripture you've quoted-ans everything make sense.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What is there to be prepared for atpollard?
Every verse is seen by you with Calvinist colors glasses.
What great scripture!
God has ALWAYS made His presence be known .
And man will be without excuse at the judgment for this very reason.
The wrath of God will be on those that suppressed the truth....
the knowledge of the existence
and
the acceptance or rejection of God.
Why else would the wrath of God be on those that suppress the truth???
In your religious system,,,it is taught that God decrees everything...
so it would be GOD that decrees that some would suppress the truth.
so
Why would God be wrathful toward someone that is only doing what HE decreed for them to do???
Correct.
Those that DO EVIL hate the light.
Those that DO EVIL have been decreed to do so from GOD Himself,,,
in YOUR religious system.
So why would God reprove them??
Yes sir.
Lydia worshipped God BEFORE the gospel was known by her.
Just like those you mentioned in Romans 1:18-20
No conflict in scripture.
God opened her heart to the gospel.
Someone that WORSHIPS GOD is ALREADY saved.
They just may not know the gospel message.
You posted:
TO THEM THAT ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.
Yes. God did predestinate....
He predestinated persons according to His purpose....
He did NOT choose who would be saved or damned.
He did NOT decree every movement of man.
Predestination is always for:
METHOD....or HOW one is saved.
PURPOSE...God saves us for purpose....
Thus we ask WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS LIFE?
It is what God wishes from us and enables us to do through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Again....METHOD.
Whom God FOREKNEW......God Foreknew who would be saved...
He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
As in Romans 12:1
DO NOT BE CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD...BUT BE TRANSFORMED.
God invited - called - those He knew would be saved and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son
to be justified - declared righteous - and, eventually, they will be glorified.
What difference??
God puts a new heart in every born again believer.
Do you deny this?
In the OT,,,,the laws were written on stone.
In the NT...the laws are written on our heart.
Ezekiel also states that we will keep God's judgments?
Do YOU keep all of God's judgments?
None of us do.
Poetic language atpollard.
Learn about poetic language in the OT.
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