Faith precedes life !

[civic]

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

 

[Angelo]

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


hope this helps !!!

Really? Why did Christ say that you have to be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? Why does Paul say that the carnal mind doesn't understand the things of the Spirit of God? Why do sinners pursue what they desire; the passions of the flesh and mind? Why did Christ say we are in bondage to sin? Why does Scripture say only Christ can set us free? Why does Christ speak in parables if the message was meant for everyone according to you?

I can go on and on...​

 

[Dizerner]

Irresistible grace is like saying, "I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse."

He's God the Father, not the Godfather.

 

[Angelo]

Irresistible grace is like saying, "I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse."

He's God the Father, not the Godfather.

And resistible Grace is like God know your role, I'll let you know if I need you or not, back into your bottle.

 

[civic]

Irresistible grace is like saying, "I'm gonna make you an offer you can't refuse."

He's God the Father, not the Godfather.

Yep

 

[civic]

Really? Why did Christ say that you have to be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven? Why does Paul say that the carnal mind doesn't understand the things of the Spirit of God? Why do sinners pursue what they desire; the passions of the flesh and mind? Why did Christ say we are in bondage to sin? Why does Scripture say only Christ can set us free? Why does Christ speak in parables if the message was meant for everyone according to you?

I can go on and on...​

Evasion deal with the scriptures in my post . Jesus is the authority on the topic not you or Calvin.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith in a Gospel sense is obeying the Truth Rom 10:15-16

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Obeying the Truth is through the Spirit hence regeneration before faith obedience 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Its of the operation of the Spirit to work faith/obedience in us 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

 

[TomL]

Faith in a Gospel sense is obeying the Truth Rom 10:15-16

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Obeying the Truth is through the Spirit hence regeneration before faith obedience 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Sorry in the context of 1Pe 1:22

1 Peter 1:22–24 (ESV) — 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,

obeying the truth does not refer to believing the gospel but loving the brethren

You are twisting scripture again

 

[civic]

Sorry in the context of 1Pe 1:22

1 Peter 1:22–24 (ESV) — 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,

obeying the truth does not refer to believing the gospel but loving the brethren

You are twisting scripture again

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry in the context of 1Pe 1:22

1 Peter 1:22–24 (ESV) — 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,

obeying the truth does not refer to believing the gospel but loving the brethren

You are twisting scripture again

Faith in a Gospel sense is obeying the Truth Rom 10:15-16

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Obeying the Truth is through the Spirit hence regeneration before faith obedience 1 Pet 1:22

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Its of the operation of the Spirit to work faith/obedience in us 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Sorry in the context of 1Pe 1:22

1 Peter 1:22–24 (ESV) — 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,

obeying the truth does not refer to believing the gospel but loving the brethren

Absolutely False, yet loving the brethren is also through the Spirit. Believing in Christ and loving the brethren are both effects and evidences of having been born of God, like John wrote 1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Barnes on 1 Pet 1:22

In obeying the truth - That is, your yielding to the requirements of truth, and to its fair influence on your minds, has been the means of your becoming pure. The truth here referred to is, undoubtedly, that which is revealed in the gospel - the great system of truth respecting the redemption of the world.

Through the Spirit - By the agency of the Holy Spirit. It is his office to apply truth to the mind; and however precious the truth may be, and however adapted to secure certain results on the soul, it will never produce those effects without the influences of the Holy Spirit. Compare Titus 3:5-6; the notes at John 3:5.

JFB

22. purified … in obeying the truth—Greek, "in your (or 'the') obedience of (that is, 'to') the truth (the Gospel way of salvation)," that is, in the fact of your believing. Faith purifies the heart as giving it the only pure motive, love to God (Ac 15:9; Ro 1:5, "obedience to the faith").

Matt poole

In obeying the truth; in subjecting yourselves to the truth of the gospel, by faith, to which the purification of the heart is ascribed, Acts 15:9, not only as to justification, and purging away the guilt of sin, but as to sanctification, and cleansing from the defilement of it: q.d. Seeing ye have begun to purify your hearts by faith in Christ, set forth in the gospel, and made sanctification to them that believe, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Through the Spirit; by the operation of the Spirit working faith in you.

John Gill

in obeying the truth; of the Gospel, by receiving, believing, and embracing it in the love of it; which teaches outward purity, and is a means in the hand of the spirit of inward purity, and of directing to the purifying blood of Jesus, who sanctifies and cleanses by the word:

through the Spirit; this clause is left out in the Alexandrian copy, and some others, and in the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions, but is in the Arabic version, and ought to be retained; for, as Christ died to purify to himself a peculiar people, the Spirit of Christ does from him purify the heart by faith in his blood; by sprinkling that on the conscience, and by leading the faith of God's people to the fountain of it, to wash it for sin, and for uncleanness; even both their consciences and their conversation, garments; whereby they obtain inward and outward purity:

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Absolutely False, yet loving the brethren is also through the Spirit. Believing in Christ and loving the brethren are both effects and evidences of having been born of God, like John wrote 1 Jn 5:1

You fail to prove that the context of 1Pe 1 22 is speaking of believing the gospel through irresistible grace infusing faith in man

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Simply shows the life of continuing faith demonstrates one has been born again

Barnes on 1 Pet 1:22

In obeying the truth - That is, your yielding to the requirements of truth, and to its fair influence on your minds, has been the means of your becoming pure. The truth here referred to is, undoubtedly, that which is revealed in the gospel - the great system of truth respecting the redemption of the world.

influence - speaks of conviction and resultant belief not infused faith

Through the Spirit - By the agency of the Holy Spirit. It is his office to apply truth to the mind; and however precious the truth may be, and however adapted to secure certain results on the soul, it will never produce those effects without the influences of the Holy Spirit. Compare Titus 3:5-6; the notes at John 3:5.

Influence and conviction not irresistibly infusing faith

JFB

22. purified … in obeying the truth—Greek, "in your (or 'the') obedience of (that is, 'to') the truth (the Gospel way of salvation)," that is, in the fact of your believing. Faith purifies the heart as giving it the only pure motive, love to God (Ac 15:9; Ro 1:5, "obedience to the faith").

Calvinist

Matt poole

In obeying the truth; in subjecting yourselves to the truth of the gospel, by faith, to which the purification of the heart is ascribed, Acts 15:9, not only as to justification, and purging away the guilt of sin, but as to sanctification, and cleansing from the defilement of it: q.d. Seeing ye have begun to purify your hearts by faith in Christ, set forth in the gospel, and made sanctification to them that believe, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Through the Spirit; by the operation of the Spirit working faith in you.

Newsflash saving faith is required before one possesses the spirit

Galatians 3:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is

Matthew Poole on Acts 15:9

By faith; faith is the instrument, God is the efficient cause, of our justification and renovation.

and on 1Pe 1:22

In obeying the truth; in subjecting yourselves to the truth of the gospel, by faith, to which the purification of the heart is ascribed, Acts 15:9, not only as to justification, and purging away the guilt of sin, but as to sanctification, and cleansing from the defilement of it: q.d. Seeing ye have begun to purify your hearts by faith in Christ, set forth in the gospel, and made sanctification to them that believe, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

John Gill

in obeying the truth; of the Gospel, by receiving, believing, and embracing it in the love of it; which teaches outward purity, and is a means in the hand of the spirit of inward purity, and of directing to the purifying blood of Jesus, who sanctifies and cleanses by the word:

Hyper Calvinist

 

[brightfame52]

You fail to prove that the context of 1Pe 1 22 is speaking of believing the gospel through irresistible grace infusing faith in man



Simply shows the life of continuing faith demonstrates one has been born again










influence - speaks of conviction and resultant belief not infused faith



Influence and conviction not irresistibly infusing faith

Calvinist

Newsflash saving faith is required before one possesses the spirit

Galatians 3:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is

Matthew Poole on Acts 15:9

By faith; faith is the instrument, God is the efficient cause, of our justification and renovation.

and on 1Pe 1:22

In obeying the truth; in subjecting yourselves to the truth of the gospel, by faith, to which the purification of the heart is ascribed, Acts 15:9, not only as to justification, and purging away the guilt of sin, but as to sanctification, and cleansing from the defilement of it: q.d. Seeing ye have begun to purify your hearts by faith in Christ, set forth in the gospel, and made sanctification to them that believe, 1 Corinthians 1:30.




Hyper Calvinist

So you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you.

 

[TomL]

So you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you.

That is because you are incapable of demonstrating irresistible grace from scripture

 

[brightfame52]

That is because you are incapable of demonstrating irresistible grace from scripture

So you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you.

 

[TomL]

So you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you.

I reject your twisted version of scripture

 

[brightfame52]

I reject your twisted version of scripture

you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you

 

[TomL]

you reject the scripture evidence I have provided you

No I reject your twisting of scripture

 

[civic]

No I reject your twisting of scripture

As should all good Bereans