The answer to that question again is from James 2!
Need help Tom? Why do you not take Romans 4 and James two and show us the true biblical sense we are to understand each passages?
Eternal Justification !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
Active Member
I gave you the truth but you cant believe it
You do not know how to establish truth
You continue to run
The filibustering continues without answer to the question originally asked
Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?
Still no answer
What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?
Still no answer
Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What did they do that they might be justified by the faith of Christ?
The fact you cannot address these verses and questions shows you belief is false
Laughable seeing as you have ignored these questions and text for over a dozen replies
Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?
Still no answer
What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?
Still no answer
Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What did they do that they might be justified by the faith of Christ?
You continue to divert because your theology has no answer
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont but God does
Tom, you know that's false, others know your statement is not true. I went to great length to prove it, and what have you done in response?
That's as deep as you have gone thus far, and probably as deep as you can go, that's yet to be seen~but, it is sure trending in that direction for sure.
"Not so that they can be," but by faith and other good works, like charity, the greatest of all good works in their life as one truly seeking his legal justification through Christ's obedience and faith~by not trusting in any of their own works, such as faith, charity, etc., since they know in their best efforts, and most holy duties, evil is mixed in with their good works and acts of faith, no child of God can escape, or rise above, this biblical truth.
Sorry I know no such thing. From the very beginning, I asked you explain these scriptures according to the text
Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?
Still no answer
What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?
Still no answer
Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What did they do to be justified by the faith of God
I can go further but will not until you actually respond to those text and answer the questions asked of you
This is not ping pong
If your theology is true, you should be able to answer those verses consistent with your theology
If you can't your theology is false
it's that simple. I have had much experience with those who are not able to address the questions put to them, who then run to other texts or skirt the text without addressing the particular point
That is what you have done.
Doesn't help you as you have no understanding of exegesis.
Tom you cannot go further, for if you could, you would! I have address those scriptures from different angles/avenues. You remind me of what Christ said
True wisdom will be justified by that which it produces and, or, by its followers! Most folks of professing Christians in this world, including men like Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Jimmy Swaggart and all who follow such men will agree with your work gospel. RCC and all other false cults will agree with your work gospel, so, at least you are not alone on this broad road, it you are looking for company, and a few amens. I rather walk alone than on that Broad road, that will lead many right to the final judgment only to hear Christ say~depart from me....but Lord, have we not DONE many wonderful works? Did we not make a decision to follow thee........Only to hear the Lord say, I "never" knew you!
You are dodging
you will not address what is asked of you
Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
What did Abraham do to be justified according to the text?
Still no answer
What must one do to have his faith counted for righteousness?
Still no answer
Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What did they do to be justified by the faith of God
here are a couple of more scripture
Gal 3:8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
How are the gentiles justified
Rom 3:30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
how are the circumcised and the uncircumcised justified
Romans 3:21–26 (ESV) — 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
BTW your appeal to James is irrational, Remember you believe Justification is eternal and not by works
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Tom, you have not provided anything to me that would cause me to evade your posts, that hasn't been dealt with more than a few times over. Besides, you certainly have not even elaborated very much beyond saying the same two phrases over and over again, that's just about as deep as you go. No pun intended sir, but, maybe it is as far as you are capable of doing. You have not even attempted to take my posts and show me (or, others who may be reading them) where I'm wrong, even if you think that my post have not dealt fairly with yours, you at least could prove that you are correct in what you are saying, you have not even done as much as this.
Coming up very soon. In the meantime, I desire you to take Ephesians 2:8,9 and give me your understanding.
Tom, I believe both, in the sense in which they both are scriptural. I have already explain how both are so, one eternally, that is true, based on the purpose of God's will in giving mercy and grace to us in Christ Jesus before the foundation of this world, electing us, and placing us in Christ as member's of his elect body, Christ being the head thereof.......Isaiah 42-24 read all of them! and seen in the lives of the Noah, who found grace in the eyes of the LORD; and Abraham, who was a friend of God; And David, a man after God's own heart~ with God revealing portions of the everlasting covenant of grace to each of them a little at a time~ all this before the death of Jesus Christ, and with much of his redemption work unknown to them except in visions, types, and animals offerings.
Those few who truly seek to be justified by Jesus' faith, obedience, by the faith freely given to them, also are careful to maintain good works, or else, they are liars.
Selah
Isaiah 42-44~please note the correction
Rockson
Active Member
Sorry RB and no offence but you've allowed yourself to slip into a sad delusion here as do all Calvinists. You're claiming any ACT of something constitutes or is seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law.
Gal 2:20 states, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." That's talking about seeking justification by keeping every aspect of the Jewish laws, rituals and ceremonies. In oontext it had nothing to do with reaching out by faith and receiving God's grace.
So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal 2:16
Putting our FAITH in Christ if NOT being saved by a work of the law BUT...BUT....IT IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO DO. You can't take this in reverses and claim it's not. It is.
But it's not something you can claim constitutes a work of the law or seeking to be saved through the law of Moses. You can continue to embrace this false notion all the rest of the days of your life but you would have made a big mistake. There's really no reason to make it really.
Sure. But it's not a work you accomplished by the keeping of the law none the less your free will has been involved in the process of cooperating with God.
Greetings Rockson, do not worry concerning offending me, that would be almost impossible, of course it could be done to any man, but as long as we all stay with the scriptures and not attacking the person there should be no concerns.
Beside, my friend, I just have not slipped into the sad delusion of Calvinism ~ first of all, since I'm not a Calvinist in the true sense of Calvinism; also, Unconditional election of grace has been around long before John Calvin~the printing press was the means of attacking Calvin's name to the doctrine of soteriology, since he wrote his popular Institutes of the Christian religion just after the printing press was invented at the young age of twenty seven. Where he put all of the Christian Religion's doctrine systematically into a book form. That's how the doctrine of unconditional election of grace became a household teaching, sadly today, it is no longer known as it was once known and taught throughout this world.
Secondly, I have held to this doctrine since my mid twenties when I first came to Christ, and begin to search the scriptures while attending a armenian church who taught free will, etc. I soon found myself without a church with my small family of four from the age of six and under~that was fifty years ago!
Well, yes for a few reasons. 1. So did Paul~in Galatians it was as simple, just eating with the Gentiles which Peter did, until some of the men who believe in Christ yet still cling to Moses' law of.... "this do and live sin and die" ~which is basically the sum of God's law. Whether it be being circumcised, wearing certain clothing, not eating certain meats, and a hos tof other man made teaching that crept in according to Matthew 15; Mark 7, etc.
Sir, man according to the word of God is dead in tresspasses and sin, he needs spiritual life to be imparted to him before being able to hear, see, and understand. Which life take the same power that brought again the Lord Jesus from the dead o bring a sinner from being spiritually dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ, per the word of God this is not the teaching of pure Calvinism per say. Ephesians 1:19-2:8.
More on this later, the Lord willing.
It does not~all Paul was addressing was Peter's sin of simply withdrawing from Gentiles believers, and not eating with them as though they were still unclean and Judaism was still the religion of God, as though these things make you acceptable to God~but Paul will shows in Galatians' epistle that the true Israel of God are those who like Isaac are born again not by works of the flesh, but by the Spirit of God alone according to two immutable acts of God~ God's pure grace and his oath to carry out his promises!
If anyone teaches a system of being acceptable to God by any works of his flesh, then that person is corrupting the doctrine of grace, this is the overall teachings of Galatians, as I hope we shall prove.
Sir, what could ahve Isaac done to secure his birth? Pray to tell me. I'll answer this for you~not one thing, and neither could the will of his parents contribute to his birth~ John 1:13 This will be the overall teaching in Galatians when it is all said and one.
It is impossible for a man at enmity against God and who is dead spiritual toward the things of God to do this! Yes, do!
Once God quickens a man to life, then from that point forward they can believe and they WILL seek by faith their justification by Christ alone! Per Galatians 2:16,17, etc.
I'll be back and add to this, very soon. RB
SIr, did you mean:
I think you probably did, no problem, I do the same at times, moving too fast.
It is the same and it is what is dealt with by Paul in Galatians from 2:16 to 5:4
Question for you: Consider Abraham having a son by Hagar by the will and energy of his flesh~which Paul clearly said that that represented the covenant of WORKS, and Isaac the covenant of free grace, based upon two immutable acts of God~his oath and his promises of mercy to Abraham.
Yes, believers flee for refuge to lay hold of God's promises of grace, after God shows his power in us, by regenerating us according to his mighty power and mercy promised to us, in our surety, Jesus Christ, his Son. Which promises you can read of in Psalms 89.
The elect seed of Jesus Christ given to him from his Father, and their salvation from sin and condemnation is based on two immutable acts of the God of heaven who cannot lie~his promises of MERCY and his holy oath. I can fully trust in that more so in my feeble acts of faith, that are mixed with sin to our shame.
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brightfame52
Active Member
6. "Christ's atonement and bearing sin was in the eye of God from eternity, as if already done: hence the patriarchs were actually and personally justified by it,"
as Dr. Isaac Chauncy well observes. Neonomianism Unmasked, London, 1692, Part 2, p. 53. Therefore why may it not be concluded that the elect were justified from everlasting, since God had the atonement of Christ then in His eye? I should be glad to see these arguments thoroughly examined, and solidly refuted, if they do not sufficiently prove what they are brought for.
We know this point to be True because of such scriptures as 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 3
as Dr. Isaac Chauncy well observes. Neonomianism Unmasked, London, 1692, Part 2, p. 53. Therefore why may it not be concluded that the elect were justified from everlasting, since God had the atonement of Christ then in His eye? I should be glad to see these arguments thoroughly examined, and solidly refuted, if they do not sufficiently prove what they are brought for.
We know this point to be True because of such scriptures as 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 3
civic
Active Member
And salvation is for all mankind without exception, all the world for which Christ made atonement- 1 John 2:2. Gods grace through Christa atonement is for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Timothy 1:10
And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared
hope this helps !!!
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Timothy 1:10
And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared
hope this helps !!!
Rockson
Active Member
Yes you're correct. Instead of IF it should have been IS. Thanks for pointing that out. A typo
And I think your main focus is on Gal 4:23 right? Still doesn't mean in Abraham's real life he couldn't have shown restraint and not have went in and had relations with Hagar. He could have chosen to let it be through Sarah from the start. I think from the way you're saying words you're implying he never could have done that as that would be a spiritual choice. All can make a spiritual choice today for God has the gospel being preached to ALL
Rockson
Active Member
So don't you see that you don't have regeneration as being a part of the promise of grace?
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