Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[FreeInChrist]

That you don't know that the Redeemer is the One Prophesied to become the Messiah, is why I don't listen to all the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in.

Look Adam, how are the dandelions, pigweed and nut hedges in your garden?

The habit of omitting the words of others is frustrating. Here, lets look at what I actually said in response to your statement; "some, likely many, argue that it does not explicitly refer to the Messiah but rather emphasizes God's authority and presence."

To which I replied;



Wouldn't this same "Messiah" not also "emphasize His God's authority and presence" when HE was "up where HE was before"? When HE was "with the glory which HE had with God "before the world was".?

YOU knew what I was saying and referencing therefore additional copy or statements are not necessary as I was responding to you TYVM

 

[FreeInChrist]

Continue from #78

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel ~ Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus as God's Son had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9

Now, please address my three post if you think I'm wrong, you cannot avoid what I have given to prove my position using scriptures. Or, at least be honest enough to say.....I need more time to ponder this, which all can understand that, for we all have been there.

Unbelivable....

You got lucky because I had an hour into a reply to you and it disappeared.

I disagree. There is proof... and I dont have time at the moment.

 

[Jim]

@Studyman

Now that I have time to spare let me wade through your muddy waters of understanding and see if I can clear up these waters somewhat.

So, why would you use this scripture and say that I'm denying the deity of Jesus Christ, is beyond me. You said:

The person the prophet is speaking about was no other than The LORD Jehovah, the everlasting Father of all things. This is true in Jesus' Deity as the God of Genesis 1;1 cp Colossians 1:15-17.

Isaiah 48:12,13​

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”

Studyman, you truly do not believe Isaiah 48 since you more than once have mocked God's election of grace, and Isaiah of all prophets said the most concerning this blessed truth, even in the verse before us, he clearly said: "“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called"....but since this thread is not about this truth, we can wait for another day concerning addressing this biblical teaching.

O Jacob and Israel, my called. Called for what? Salvation of select individuals? I don't think so.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Continue from #78

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel ~ Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus as God's Son had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9

Now, please address my three post if you think I'm wrong, you cannot avoid what I have given to prove my position using scriptures. Or, at least be honest enough to say.....I need more time to ponder this, which all can understand that, for we all have been there.

Part of my reply... I am posting before it is gone.

Who was He talking to when he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46

Who was He referencing when he said " And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

Or

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Both in John 17

These are separate, not one . If they were one, a Godhead would not be needed....

 

[Aeliana]

Part of my reply... I am posting before it is gone.

Who was He talking to when he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46

Who was He referencing when he said " And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

Or

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Both in John 17

These are separate, not one . If they were one, a Godhead would not be needed....

You can save you posts as a Draft, (see upper right corner of your post) as you are typing it.

 

[civic]

@civic

YES. Brother, the only way any man can protect Jesus' deity.

The best way for you to prove me wrong, if you think I am, then take my post above and below and do it. You will have trouble doing so, trust me. I once was taught your position and held it for around ten years or so, (early seventies to mid 80's) until I was able to search it on my own without listening to outside voices and I was converted to where I am now by the scriptures and with the help of men down through the church history who debated this very subject. The Particular Baptist split over this very subject as far back as 1650 and could be back even further than that date ~but, I know for sure around then.

You just confessed Unitarianism before creation.

 

[civic]

Continue from #78

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel ~ Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus as God's Son had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9

Now, please address my three post if you think I'm wrong, you cannot avoid what I have given to prove my position using scriptures. Or, at least be honest enough to say.....I need more time to ponder this, which all can understand that, for we all have been there.

Now modalism.

 

[civic]

Part of my reply... I am posting before it is gone.

Who was He talking to when he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46

Who was He referencing when he said " And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

Or

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Both in John 17

These are separate, not one . If they were one, a Godhead would not be needed....

Correct before creation he confessed Unitarianism and after creation Modalism. He is not a Trinitarian and should not be debating the Trinity. He is misrepresenting the Trinity and its historic doctrine throughout church history.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Unbelivable....

You got lucky

I got lucky? Well, I do not believe in luck, so we will let that go, but maybe God allow you to lose it, keeping you from being put to shame. But, I understand how frustrating it is to lose hard work, whether right or wrong. It is happened to me, and my thoughts were maybe for reason it God allowed it.

Who was He talking to when he said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46

Jesus the Son of God in his humanity speaking to God who was indeed the Father of his flesh, the body that God prepared for him to be the surety of His people. God is a Spirit that inhabits eternity, this has never change nor will it ever change, impossible.

Who was He referencing when he said " And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

Before the world worlds were created, in his Deity, he was God. Jesus Christ is the eternal, self-existent God, the Jehovah of teh scriptures, is clearly demonstrated in the Scriptures, and in the personal experience of every saint. For if he is not God in an absolute and unrestricted sense, he cannot be the Savior. He says: “I am God, and beside me there is no Savior.” We must, and will be, be excused from indorsing a doctrine, however popular or plausible, that would rob us of a Savior, or present him in a character in which we are forbidden to worship him. This doctrine of a begotten Godhead is, to us, equivalent to a denial of his Godhead in all but a nominal sense.

Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

@FreeInChrist again, Jesus praying in his humanity to his Father. Maybe we just need to do a verse by verse of John 17 to let all see exactly how we would put the proper sense on Jesus' prayer to his Father.

I did make a few post above that I would like for you and other to comment on.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Correct before creation he confessed Unitarianism and after creation Modalism. He is not a Trinitarian and should not be debating the Trinity. He is misrepresenting the Trinity and its historic doctrine throughout church history.

Civic, you are misrepresenting me, and If you address my post above then we shall see WHO truly is protecting Jesus' Deity as the TRUE God and eternal life. That does not mean you do not believe in Jesus' Deity, because I know that you do, but your teaching is denying it, because you are simply clinging to what you have been taught to believe, and it is hard for you to let it go.