Intro:
This is a debate that anyone can join into so long as you KEEP IT ON TOPIC.
Specifically posted in this forum due to the fact that it is the bible that is at the heart of both beliefs and it is good to get it sides defined.
The sides being where you come down on Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship ?
Prologue: of sorts....
The following cut and pastes came from The member Comments of the current limited debate "The Deity of Jesus Christ , True or False" and has been suggested again by
@Red Baker.
Copy starts now to bring all up to date........................................
@Red Baker
@FreeInChrist
I was rushing my self ~meant to write
along, not alone!
Save time and make it simple: Eternal Sonship vss Incarnate Sonship which is biblical? I'll be on the Incarnate Sonship side, and maybe
@dwight92070 can be with me, since what I have read from some of his posit, he seems to be an incarnate believer, even if he does not call himself that.
Or, better yet, just start a thread on this subject, since there are Christians on both side of this subject and some have never even considered the other side and all of its ramifications.
@FreeInChrist
Ill take it under advisement and let you know.
Or better yet.....
Anyone reading this in any way interested in either side of this?
@360watt
I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.
Red
@360watt
Brother, the
good thing is this: there are
believers on both side, one just not yet educated on the Sonship doctrine.
I was first taught the eternal Sonship position, but soon found that it has some serious hole in its position. Many good men that I have high regard for taught the eternal Sonship position. But, we can not follow man, but the scriptures.
I do not know all that Michael Servetus believe in his strong disagreement with John Calvin, that cost him his life. but it was over this very issue,
to what degree we shall never know since Servetus' works were burned with him. But histroy tell us his last words were these:
AI Overview
Michael Servetus's last words, uttered as he was being burned at the stake in 1553, were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me". These words are considered a reflection of his anti-Trinitarian views, as he emphasized Jesus' identity as the "Son of the Eternal God" rather than "eternal Son of God".
Red
One more thought.
John Calvin did not have Servetus burned, because of his understanding, the men of Geneva did. Calvin labored to get him to changed his understanding but refused to do so. Michael Servetus went to Geneva to confront Calvin, which was not wise on his part. I have read some things where Calvin and him disagree but only from Calvin's writings, so, who knows, I would have love to hear exactly what Michael Servetus did truly believe, but his confession sounded
very good, so who knows.
@Eternally Grateful
I would be curious to understand how someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this.
If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?
@Red Baker
The
Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited
logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a
manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~
Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
You said: "
How someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this. If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?"
By the very fact God was his Father, being the
very express image of who God is, more than qualify him to be the very person for God to laid help upon to secure the salvation of his elect.
@Eternally-Grateful
Begotten is his humanity..,
I ask again
How can you trust a God who punishes a mere man for your salvation. And not the eternal God
Scripture said it is through Jesus all things were created.
It calls him God
Jesus said before abraham came into existence. he always existed (he is eternal)
I mean I do not get it.
@Red Baker
Later, I have meeting. I have explained this at length a few times over, but will be happy to do so again Late this afternoon ~ EST.
@FreeInChrist
You say your beliefs are grounded in the bible....
I will repeat from before
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, even of the angels as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.
In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”
The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (
Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).
Back to John ever so briefly:
John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven
John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of
the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
then
John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jesus is stating to the Father they were together before the world was.
If this is not convincing you yet.... answer this
So how does Jesus have the status of being the Word, and how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation?
How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–
just as the Father has this.
How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Can you not understand this is the Son talking to his Father about when they were before the foundation of the world.
John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time;
the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word.
Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5.
This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
@FreeInChrist
I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask
@civic or
@Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.
I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.
So come on in, the water is fine
@Administrator
You can setup whatever you like and it's fine with me. Let me know if you need any help.
@Red Baker
In the morning, I will answer ~ no problem.
@civic
I’m willing to defend the eternal Son side
@Red Baker
In his Deity AS GOD, he created all things. No problem, by separating Jesus' complex nature.
You said:
"irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."
Jesus
as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.
That is not scriptural but someone's opinion with no proof other than the Greek said so, and that does not count. I have more than once explain the meaning of Son and Father relationship to each other. This teaching destroys Jesus' Deity as God
It does not said anything close to that. John is simply stating the the Word was God without any qualifications. I can and will come back later and address John 1:1 in depth. I'm heading back to bed, I could not sleep so I got up, but now very shortly I'm heading.
Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1, so yes in his Divine nature he was God. Even while on earth, he was IN HEAVEN as far as being God manifest in the flesh!
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which
is in heaven.”
Jesus was NOT the Word in the beginning, God was the Word, Jesus was the Son of God born in time.
One more time:
The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by
self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest
contradiction of term. We ask:
can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~
Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms:
Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply
different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand
eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
I'm going to bed..I'll pick up here later. It is past 2:00 am
OKAY PEOPLE... LET THE GAMES BEGIN
AND KEEP IT ON TOPICE, PLEASE........................................................ IF NOT I ASK ADMIN TO DELETE THOSE POSTS.
