Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift

[TomL]

1 Corinthians 2:14 [ESV] 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

How will the natural person overcome this handicap and “believe” that which “is folly to him, and he is not able to understand” without GOD acting first? As in …

Ephesians 2:1-9 [ESV]
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

There is a process, but God is the author of the process from first to last … from opening Lydia’s heart to listen to the final glorification of those sealed with His Holy Spirit.

Please address

Hardly as there is a logical order beginning with faith.

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

Receiving Christ here is believing in his name

believing in his name precedes regeneration, spiritual life, becoming a child of God

12. To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.

John divides the world into two groups—those who reject and those who accept. In verse 12 God gives those who accept and believe a new status and authority: “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” Receiving and believing are the antithesis of “not knowing/receiving” and are virtual synonyms, with “believe” another key term in John, occurring ninety-eight times versus a total of thirty-four in the Synoptic Gospels and fifty-four in all of Paul’s writings. It is always a verb, stressing the dynamic process of faith-decision. This belief is “in his name,” meaning the full reality and person behind “the Word.” To believe is to immerse one’s self in all that is Jesus as the Word of God.

Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 32.

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a, b, c, d.—οἱ ὑπηρέται ῥαπίσμασιν αὐτὸν ἔλαβον Mk 14:65 does not mean ‘the servants took him into custody with blows’ (BWeiss, al.), but is a colloquialism (Bl-D. §198, 3 app. αὐτὸν κονδύλοις ἔλαβεν; Act. Jo. 90) the servants treated him to blows (cf. Moffatt), or even ‘got’ him w. blows (perh. a Latinism; Cicero, Tusc. 2, 14, 34 verberibus accipere. Bl-D. §5, 3b; cf. Rob. 530f); the v.l. ἔβαλον is the result of failure to recognize this rare usage.

 

[atpollard]

Um Paul is speaking to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to fleshly people, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to eat it. But now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and do you not live like unregenerate people? 4 For whenever anyone says, “I am with Paul,” and another, “I am with Apollos,” are you not merely human?

They were of a fleshly, unregenerate nature, but they had believed the gospel.

Fine, you believe that people are innately good and all the verses to the contrary are about “something else”. We will have to agree to disagree.

No point wasting any more time on this.

 

[atpollard]

Not even Calvin accepts your theology here

As a Baptist, nothing could interest me less that what Calvin believes. I came to my beliefs from John and Paul … Sola Scriptura … neither Calvin nor Augustine nor the ECFs mean diddly to me.

 

[atpollard]

Hardly as there is a logical order beginning with faith.

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

Receiving Christ here is believing in his name

believing in his name precedes regeneration, spiritual life, becoming a child of God

12. To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.

John divides the world into two groups—those who reject and those who accept. In verse 12 God gives those who accept and believe a new status and authority: “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” Receiving and believing are the antithesis of “not knowing/receiving” and are virtual synonyms, with “believe” another key term in John, occurring ninety-eight times versus a total of thirty-four in the Synoptic Gospels and fifty-four in all of Paul’s writings. It is always a verb, stressing the dynamic process of faith-decision. This belief is “in his name,” meaning the full reality and person behind “the Word.” To believe is to immerse one’s self in all that is Jesus as the Word of God.

Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 32.

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a, b, c, d.—οἱ ὑπηρέται ῥαπίσμασιν αὐτὸν ἔλαβον Mk 14:65 does not mean ‘the servants took him into custody with blows’ (BWeiss, al.), but is a colloquialism (Bl-D. §198, 3 app. αὐτὸν κονδύλοις ἔλαβεν; Act. Jo. 90) the servants treated him to blows (cf. Moffatt), or even ‘got’ him w. blows (perh. a Latinism; Cicero, Tusc. 2, 14, 34 verberibus accipere. Bl-D. §5, 3b; cf. Rob. 530f); the v.l. ἔβαλον is the result of failure to recognize this rare usage.

You requested that I “please address” the above.
There is nothing to address. My response is in post #290 and you fundamentally disagree that all the acts associated with salvation are simultaneous … so your response means nothing to me. You are incorrect. God does EVERYTHING needed to justify someone in an instant and the “Ordo Salutis” is an imaginary construct of men rather than a Biblical construct of God.

Hearing, believing, repenting and being saved are all part of a single transformative event. There is no magical incantation that requires spoken words and there is no somatic component to the spell that requires ablution. There is a quickening that transforms from death to life, from old man to new man … and it is a GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF YOURSELF [Ephesians 2:8-9] from first to last.

You believe God, the Great I AM, requires your help to save you … and you are mistaken.

 

[TomL]

As a Baptist, nothing could interest me less that what Calvin believes. I came to my beliefs from John and Paul … Sola Scriptura … neither Calvin nor Augustine nor the ECFs mean diddly to me.

As a Baptist you however were touting Calvinist theology.

Reformed Baptist?

The rest of my post


Salvation (this, it) is not the results of works



And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5) and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God.

 

[TomL]

You requested that I “please address” the above.
There is nothing to address. My response is in post #290 and you fundamentally disagree that all the acts associated with salvation are simultaneous … so your response means nothing to me. You are incorrect. God does EVERYTHING needed to justify someone in an instant and the “Ordo Salutis” is an imaginary construct of men rather than a Biblical construct of God.

Hearing, believing, repenting and being saved are all part of a single transformative event. There is no magical incantation that requires spoken words and there is no somatic component to the spell that requires ablution. There is a quickening that transforms from death to life, from old man to new man … and it is a GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF YOURSELF [Ephesians 2:8-9] from first to last.

You believe God, the Great I AM, requires your help to save you … and you are mistaken.

Of course there is

Received him speaks of belief in his name per the verse, commentaries, and a Greek lexicon.

Hardly as there is a logical order beginning with faith.

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

Receiving Christ here is believing in his name

believing in his name precedes regeneration, spiritual life, becoming a child of God

12. To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.

John divides the world into two groups—those who reject and those who accept. In verse 12 God gives those who accept and believe a new status and authority: “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” Receiving and believing are the antithesis of “not knowing/receiving” and are virtual synonyms, with “believe” another key term in John, occurring ninety-eight times versus a total of thirty-four in the Synoptic Gospels and fifty-four in all of Paul’s writings. It is always a verb, stressing the dynamic process of faith-decision. This belief is “in his name,” meaning the full reality and person behind “the Word.” To believe is to immerse one’s self in all that is Jesus as the Word of God.

Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 32.

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a, b, c, d.—οἱ ὑπηρέται ῥαπίσμασιν αὐτὸν ἔλαβον Mk 14:65 does not mean ‘the servants took him into custody with blows’ (BWeiss, al.), but is a colloquialism (Bl-D. §198, 3 app. αὐτὸν κονδύλοις ἔλαβεν; Act. Jo. 90) the servants treated him to blows (cf. Moffatt), or even ‘got’ him w. blows (perh. a Latinism; Cicero, Tusc. 2, 14, 34 verberibus accipere. Bl-D. §5, 3b; cf. Rob. 530f); the v.l. ἔβαλον is the result of failure to recognize this rare usage.

 

[TomL]

Fine, you believe that people are innately good and all the verses to the contrary are about “something else”. We will have to agree to disagree.

No point wasting any more time on this.

That is incorrect.

I do not so believe.

Um Paul is speaking to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to fleshly people, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to eat it. But now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and do you not live like unregenerate people? 4 For whenever anyone says, “I am with Paul,” and another, “I am with Apollos,” are you not merely human?

They were of a fleshly, unregenerate (i.e., natural) nature, but they had believed the gospel.

Calvinists invariably draw the inference that they cannot believe the gospel even though the passages never mention the gospel. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. In this verse, the Calvinists find the concept directly taught that unsaved man (the "natural man") is not able to receive "the things of the Spirit of God," namely the gospel. But as we shall see, the entirety of 1 Corinthians 2 has nothing whatever to do with total depravity. Instead of addressing total depravity, Paul is making an argument about the current spiritual condition of his Christian audience that is reflected in their divisions and strife. Paul is speaking to the saved people in the church of Corinth about his desire to teach them the deeper things of God. We can summarize Paul's argument in 2:1 through 3:3 as follows: (1) when Paul came to Corinth, he did not speak in words of human wisdom, but simply preached the gospel and demonstrated the power of God (2:1-5); (2) but Paul does teach a type of wisdom to mature believers (2:6-8); (3) this wisdom was received by direct revelation from the Spirit and could not be obtained in any other way (2:9-16); (4) this wisdom of God cannot be understood by a natural person because it involves deep spiritual matters (2:13-15); and (5) because the Corinthians are carnal, Paul cannot yet teach them this wisdom (3:1-3). Paul is comparing the capacity of the Corinthian believers for the deeper things of God with the limitations faced by a natural or unsaved man. The gospel is not even in view. It is the meat of the Word that Paul is concerned about so that he can move them on to maturity. Paul says this in the first two verses of the chapter: "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." Paul did not come to them with man's wisdom but with the gospel and "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power." (1 Corinthians 2:4) But even though Paul did not come to Corinth in "excellency of speech or of wisdom" he does teach a different type of wisdom to mature or "perfect" believers: "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought." (1 Corinthians 2:8) Paul explains why the wisdom he speaks about is directed to the mature believers. This was a hidden wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:9) that could not be naturally deduced, but only received by direct revelation from God. Paul states: 1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Natural observation will not allow us to learn God's wisdom ("eye hath not seen"), neither can it be learned from men ("nor ear heard"), nor can we deduce God's wisdom from our own minds ("neither have entered into the heart of man"). Instead of being naturally deduced, this knowledge was revealed "unto us by his Spirit." This is not just another wisdom in the arena of ideas, but indeed, "the deep things of God." It is important to notice that the "us" in verse 10 is the same as the "we" in verse 8, namely a reference to Paul and probably the other apostles, not all believers. Paul confirms again in 2:11 that only the Spirit of God knows the deep things of God: "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." Then Paul says of himself and the select others to whom God made special revelation: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (1 Corinthians 2:12) The common misinterpretations of chapter 2 arise from taking the "us" and "we" to indicate Christians generally rather than Paul and the other apostles, individuals specially selected by God for the purpose of revealing His wisdom by special revelation. Paul is saying that he received direct revelation from God, much as he also said in Galatians 1, and as Jesus promised to the apostles in John 16:13. Paul continues in 2:13 and explains that he is about the business of teaching what was revealed to him by God's Spirit: "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." We must remember at this point how Paul started off. He spoke of his first and primary mission of preaching the gospel and not "excellency of speech or of wisdom," but then made a contrast and explained that there is a type of wisdom that he teaches to perfect or mature believers, namely "the deep things of God." This wisdom that he teaches to the mature believers was received by direct revelation from God. And it is this wisdom that he teaches to mature believers that is being referred to in 2:13 when Paul says "which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth." Where Paul is heading is that just as this wisdom could not be naturally deduced, but only received by direct revelation from God, it can only be taught to spiritually mature people, for it is wisdom "which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." This brings us to the Calvinist stronghold, 1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This verse begins with "but," indicating that it is in contrast to the prior statements Paul made about the source of his teachings and his statement that he teaches certain things to mature believers. The "deep things of God" cannot be understood by the natural man because they are spiritual matters, but Paul is not speaking about the gospel here. We must remember that Paul is writing to a church made up of people who have already professed faith in the gospel. There is no need for Paul to address whether or not they have the capacity to believe the gospel because they already have. What they have not done is matured as believers, and that is the issue he is speaking to, as he will explicitly state in the opening verses of chapter 3. Ignoring that contextually it is doctrine fit for mature believers and not the gospel that Paul has in mind, Calvinists extricate the phrase "for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." They insist that the gospel is foolishness to the unsaved person in the sense that he hears it but cannot comprehend it. However, it is because they are "natural" that the ramifications of God's deeper truths are lost on them, and in that sense they cannot "know them." Since it is the deeper things of God in view here, and not the gospel, this does not mean that the natural man cannot become a believer by faith and, as he matures, come to know these deeper truths Paul wants to teach the Corinthians. As we will see in chapter 3, the saved but immature and carnal believers in Corinth face the same limitations as the unsaved person when it comes to grasping the ramifications of the deep things of God for their lives, and that is Paul's whole point in teaching what he does in chapter 2. What we have in chapter 2 is Paul contrasting the natural man with the mature believer. But of the spiritual or mature believer, he says they "judgeth all things." (1 Corinthians 2:15) The "all things" refers to the content of Paul's teaching that he received by direct revelation. The mature person has the ability to evaluate these things and understand the ramifications for their lives. Paul concludes:

 

[atpollard]

Hardly as there is a logical order beginning with faith.

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

Receiving Christ here is believing in his name

At what point in John 1:12 were they “unsaved”?
Do the “unsaved” really have the AUTHORITY to become children of God?

 

[TomL]

At what point in John 1:12 were they “unsaved”?
Do the “unsaved” really have the AUTHORITY to become children of God?

To those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

According to scripture, when they believed in his name

John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,

unsaved before they believed

John 3:36 (LEB) — 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life—but the wrath of God remains on him.

Mark 16:16 (LEB) — 16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

2 Thessalonians 1:8–9 (LEB) — 8 with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

John 8:24 (LEB) — 24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (LEB) — 3 But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[TomL]

At what point in John 1:12 were they “unsaved”?
Do the “unsaved” really have the AUTHORITY to become children of God?

Continuing

John 1:6–13 (NASB95) — 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The overall context concerns belief in the true light, Jesus Christ.

True Light is truth. One can receive the truth, or one may not receive the truth.

His people, the Jews, did not receive him as the true light; that is, they did not believe in him overall.

John 10:24–26 (LEB) — 24 So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep!

Matthew 13:57–58 (LEB) — 57 And they were offended by him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own hometown and in his own household.” 58 And he did not perform many miracles in that place because of their unbelief.

Receiving him clearly did not refer to an indwelling of him, as one cannot even speak of an indwelling of Christ, or regeneration by the Spirit, before the cross.

John 7:38–39 (NASB95) — 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So we are back to the fact

John 1:12–13 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God.

Those who believed in his name became children of God, and were born of him, the true light.

Contrary to Calvinism, man must first believe before they are regenerated, given life, born of God.

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

They were of a fleshly, unregenerate (i.e., natural) nature, but they had believed the gospel.

Yeah but they had the advantage of also being regenerated and having the Spirit in them to receive the truth of the Gospel. The most spiritual Christians can be also carnal Paul said he was Carnal as a believer Romans 7

 

[TomL]

@TomL


Yeah but they had the advantage of also being regenerated and having the Spirit in them to receive the truth of the Gospel. The most spiritual Christians can be also carnal Paul said he was Carnal as a believer Romans 7

Not before they believed

1 Corinthians 1:21 (LEB) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore, what is Apollos and what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) — 2 by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

1 Corinthians 15:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore whether I or those, in this way we preached, and in this way you believed.

 

[FreeInChrist]

1 Corinthians 2:14 [ESV] 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

How will the natural person overcome this handicap and “believe” that which “is folly to him, and he is not able to understand” without GOD acting first? As in …

How was it that from the time I was 7 or 8 years old I was told and believed what Jesus had done for me/us?
That was the reason we celebrated Christmas as in celebrating His birth and not the Santa garbage.

I believed and knew it to be true.

How at that age?

Ephesians 2:1-9 [ESV]
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

There is a process, but God is the author of the process from first to last … from opening Lydia’s heart to listen to the final glorification of those sealed with His Holy Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

How was it that from the time I was 7 or 8 years old I was told and believed what Jesus had done for me/us?
That was the reason we celebrated Christmas as in celebrating His birth and not the Santa garbage.

I believed and knew it to be true.

How at that age?

I think it unfair to ask ME questions that are so far above my pay grade that they belong to GOD.

To quote Master Oogway …

 

[civic]

I think it unfair to ask ME questions that are so far above my pay grade that they belong to GOD.

To quote Master Oogway …
View attachment 2296

I like your answer , wisdom speaks

 

[TomL]

@TomL


Yeah but they had the advantage of also being regenerated and having the Spirit in them to receive the truth of the Gospel. The most spiritual Christians can be also carnal Paul said he was Carnal as a believer Romans 7

Regeneration is after one believes

Ephesians 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:2–3 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be made complete by the flesh?

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

Regeneration is after one believes

Ephesians 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Galatians 3:2–3 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be made complete by the flesh?

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yep belief before birth

 

[TomL]

Yep belief before birth

Yet somehow Calvinists will posit birth before belief despite the testimony of scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Yet somehow Calvinists will posit birth before belief despite the testimony of scripture.

I cannot speak for what others believe, but there seems to be some confusion over the use of the term “birth”. Some reserve “birth” for “repentance leading to Justification” (which clearly comes after one hears and believes). Others include the work of God that leads us to that point, as these verses describe …

• [John 6:45 ESV] It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
• [Act 16:14 ESV] One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

So it becomes a question of defining “birth” starting at delivery or the first labor pains.

 

[brightfame52]

Not before they believed

1 Corinthians 1:21 (LEB) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore, what is Apollos and what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) — 2 by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.

1 Corinthians 15:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore whether I or those, in this way we preached, and in this way you believed.

Believing is the evidence of salvation. Even though the Corinthians acted carnally in their behaviour at times as all born again believers do, they still were regenerated and gifted with the Spirit to understand the deep Gospel Truths preached to them. Vs 12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

They had received the Spirit of God in order to know the things freely given to them, which things are spoken to them by their gospel preaching of Christ.

The words feely given in the greek is charizomai :

to give graciously, give freely, bestow:

And its the same word Paul wrote here in Rom 8:32 in connection with Christ dying or us

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So they had been given the Spirit in order to know/understand the things of Christ freely given them. So believing is an evidence one has the Spirit given them.