Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TomL]

God either created man with the ability to sin or God created man without the ability to sin. There is no alternative (unless God did not create man, which the Bible says is false).

If God created man with the ability to sin, then it was THAT act by God that allows sin to exist. If God had not created man with that ability, then man COULD NOT have sinned. Thus God is the "FIRST CAUSE" (the cause that has no prior cause - nothing created God) and man is the "SECOND CAUSE" (the cause that is the result of some prior cause - God created man). Thus God made man, and man made sin. So God is the UNCREATED CAUSE of Sin and man is the IMMEDIATE CAUSE of Sin.

Sorry, but if Adam had the ability to not sin, then God was not the cause of sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Quoted for truth.

and who does God grant this to?

 

[TomL]

I realize this is probably incomprehensible to you, but not EVERYTHING is about Calvinism.

But determinism is.

 

[Dizerner]

Here, i fixed it for everyone - @civic @Dizerner @TomL @TibiasDad @Jim

The Holy Scriptures declare to us it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen. FYI - i am NOT a calvinist

Why did you tag me.

God enables faith, but he does not force it.

 

[atpollard]

Here is what Leighton Flowers has to say

Yes, repentance is granted, but “granted” does not mean “to effectually cause.” Therefore, this passage does not mean repentance is effectual or irresistibly granted to a relatively small number of people mysteriously chosen for unknown reasons before the world began.

Poor Leighton Flowers, his God has a short arm.

 

[TomL]

Why did you tag me.

God enables faith, but he does not force it.

But apparently he believes that God does.

 

[TomL]

Poor Leighton Flowers, his God has a short arm.

Not at all. He can allow free will and still accomplish what he wants in the end.

Your God is not able to.

 

[Dizerner]

But apparently he believes that God does.

His words do permit some ambiguity, we should let him clarify what he means.

I do not think he is a Calvinist.

 

[atpollard]

But determinism is.

I was not speaking of determinism, but of "the Law of First Cause" ...

The "law of first cause," or more accurately the First-Cause Argument, is a philosophical concept, also known as the cosmological argument, that posits that everything in existence has a cause, and tracing this chain of causality backward eventually leads to an uncaused, self-existent First Cause, which is often identified as God. This argument is based on the premises that:​

1. everything that begins to exist has a cause,
2. the universe began to exist, and therefore,
3. the universe has a cause.

• The argument suggests that something cannot come from nothing. If the universe had a beginning, it requires a cause. Since this cause must be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial to avoid containing time, space, and matter, it logically points to a supernatural being, such as God.
• The concept has roots in ancient Greek philosophy, with figures like Aristotle positing an "unmoved mover". Medieval philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas further developed the argument, integrating it into Judeo-Christian thought.
• The concept of a beginning to the universe is supported by scientific discoveries, including Einstein's theory of relativity and Hubble's red shift observations, which provide evidence for a cosmic beginning.

 

[civic]

Is "good" also not a creation, but a result or consequence of obedience?
GOOD and EVIL either exist or they do not exist.

• If they exist, then they are either eternal or they have a beginning.
  • If they are eternal, that places them in the realm of GOD.
  • If they have a beginning then SOMETHING is responsible for that beginning ... the FIRST CAUSE that started "good" and/or "evil".
• If they do not exist, then NIHILISM is correct ... there is no GOOD or EVIL, they are imaginary constructs.

Good is an attribute of God so you are conflating

 

[Dizerner]

still accomplish what he wants in the end.

Well, God does want everyone saved, but also wants free will to exist, so there is a hierarchy of desires.

God gets what his primary desires are (free will), but does not always get what his secondary desires are (salvation for all).

There is a sense in which we must admit God both created and is responsible for all that exists.

However, he has the authority to delegate that responsibility as well to the things he creates.

 

[civic]

I was not speaking of determinism, but of "the Law of First Cause" ...

The "law of first cause," or more accurately the First-Cause Argument, is a philosophical concept, also known as the cosmological argument, that posits that everything in existence has a cause, and tracing this chain of causality backward eventually leads to an uncaused, self-existent First Cause, which is often identified as God. This argument is based on the premises that:​

1. everything that begins to exist has a cause,
2. the universe began to exist, and therefore,
3. the universe has a cause.

• The argument suggests that something cannot come from nothing. If the universe had a beginning, it requires a cause. Since this cause must be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial to avoid containing time, space, and matter, it logically points to a supernatural being, such as God.
• The concept has roots in ancient Greek philosophy, with figures like Aristotle positing an "unmoved mover". Medieval philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas further developed the argument, integrating it into Judeo-Christian thought.
• The concept of a beginning to the universe is supported by scientific discoveries, including Einstein's theory of relativity and Hubble's red shift observations, which provide evidence for a cosmic beginning.

That’s philosophy

 

[atpollard]

That’s philosophy

I said as much at the start (post #19)

So what power/being external to God and creation compelled (first cause) sin to exist? [If we are going to go down that "metaphysical/philosophical" bunny trail of "first cause".]

 

[TomL]

Well, God does want everyone saved, but also wants free will to exist, so there is a hierarchy of desires.

God gets what his primary desires are (free will), but does not always get what his secondary desires are (salvation for all).

There is a sense in which we must admit God both created and is responsible for all that exists.

However, he has the authority to delegate that responsibility as well to the things he creates.

His desire for the salvation of all, however, is limited by his desire for faith on the part of the one he will save.

 

[Dizerner]

His desire for the salvation of all, however, is limited by his desire for faith on the part of the one he will save.

I think this is imprecisely worded, but I think you meant to say the right thing.

God does actually and really desire the salvation of all while not getting it.

 

[TomL]

I think this is imprecisely worded, but I think you meant to say the right thing.

God does actually and really desire the salvation of all while not getting it.

Yet it is also his will to not save rejectors of his grace.

 

[Jim]

Here, i fixed it for everyone - @civic @Dizerner @TomL @TibiasDad @Jim

The Holy Scriptures declare to us it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

The Holy Scriptures declare no such thing.

FYI - i am NOT a calvinist

You may not be a Calvinist, and I accept that you are not. However, you are buying into one of the Calvinist generated fallacies.

 

[TomL]

Well, God does want everyone saved, but also wants free will to exist, so there is a hierarchy of desires.

God gets what his primary desires are (free will), but does not always get what his secondary desires are (salvation for all).

There is a sense in which we must admit God both created and is responsible for all that exists.

However, he has the authority to delegate that responsibility as well to the things he creates.

Um God is not responsible for the sin of man.

 

[TibiasDad]

Here, i fixed it for everyone - @civic @Dizerner @TomL @TibiasDad @Jim

The Holy Scriptures declare to us it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

FYI - i am NOT a calvinist

That’s what a Calvinist would say…so whether you call yourself that or not, your beliefs are identical.

Doug

 

[TomL]

I was not speaking of determinism, but of "the Law of First Cause" ...

​

Um if determinism were true, then God would be the first cause of everything.