Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[Presby02]

Um, you did nothing at all to prove my understanding faulty. You failed to address a single verse, And you responded
in a manner that accidentally affirmed what I posted.

Exactly. This thread is dealing with Ephesians 2.

I never affirmed anything you posted other than "God does not cause sin". I sense now your arguing for arguments sake.

 

[TomL]

Exactly. This thread is dealing with Ephesians 2.

I never affirmed anything you posted other than "God does not cause sin". I sense now your arguing for arguments sake.

You sense incorrectly, and I repeat

Um, you did nothing at all to prove my understanding faulty. You failed to address a single verse, And you responded
in a manner that accidentally affirmed what I posted.

And btw your comment

Repentance is granted or given by God as is belief.

Is a statement in affirmation of total depravity and was the reason for my posting of the verses I had.

Further, Eph 2 as understood by Calvinists, and yourself, holds that faith is given by God

This is a furtherance of the Calvinist belief that man is incapable of having faith as per total depravity.

Note total depravity includes within itself total inability—man does not have the capability of repentance or faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

it is simple if we just read it

for it is by grace we have been saved by grace

Our salvation is solely of grace. if we stopped hear. Calvinistic viewpoints may be correct. because it is a free gift which could never be earned. hence "by Grace"

but we have to finish the sentence

Through faith

God does not force us to receive his grace gift. In his love and mercy and desiring to have a relationship with us, he desires us to freely receive him in faith. Jesus made this clear in the book of John over and over again.

John 1 - But as many as have received him - made children of God
John 3 - Whoever believes will never perish, has eternal life and is not condemned
John 4 - ask and he will give you living water flowing to eternal life
John 5 - Hear and believe and you will live forever. pass from death to life and pass from judgment (not be judged)
John 6 - Eat the food which endures forever. the living food. the bread from heaven - by believing in him, we will never hunger or thirst, never perish, live forever. And have his assurance he will raise us on the last day.

The path of going from a state of unbelief (condemnation) to faith in Christ (no longer condemned) is called repentance. By definition one who0 has trusted God and received his gift has repented and come to salvation (see the tax collector vs the pharisee)

Again, Calvins error is stopping at Grace, it is By Grace THROUGH FAITH not of works (so the works based pharisee is in error as much as calvin is. as they add works to grace cancelling out Grace

 

[TomL]

it is simple if we just read it

for it is by grace we have been saved by grace

Our salvation is solely of grace. if we stopped hear. Calvinistic viewpoints may be correct. because it is a free gift which could never be earned. hence "by Grace"

but we have to finish the sentence

Through faith

God does not force us to receive his grace gift. In his love and mercy and desiring to have a relationship with us, he desires us to freely receive him in faith. Jesus made this clear in the book of John over and over again.

John 1 - But as many as have received him - made children of God
John 3 - Whoever believes will never perish, has eternal life and is not condemned
John 4 - ask and he will give you living water flowing to eternal life
John 5 - Hear and believe and you will live forever. pass from death to life and pass from judgment (not be judged)
John 6 - Eat the food which endures forever. the living food. the bread from heaven - by believing in him, we will never hunger or thirst, never perish, live forever. And have his assurance he will raise us on the last day.

The path of going from a state of unbelief (condemnation) to faith in Christ (no longer condemned) is called repentance. By definition one who0 has trusted God and received his gift has repented and come to salvation (see the tax collector vs the pharisee)

Again, Calvins error is stopping at Grace, it is By Grace THROUGH FAITH not of works (so the works based pharisee is in error as much as calvin is. as they add works to grace cancelling out Grace

Yes, salvation is by grace through faith.

That makes faith necessary for salvation, while it is grace from God that actually saves.

 

[Presby02]

You sense incorrectly, and I repeat



Further, Eph 2 as understood by Calvinists, and yourself, holds that faith is given by God

This is a furtherance of the Calvinist belief that man is incapable of having faith as per total depravity.

Note total depravity includes within itself total inability—man does not have the capability of repentance or faith.

You sense incorrectly, and I repeat



Further, Eph 2 as understood by Calvinists, and yourself, holds that faith is given by God

This is a furtherance of the Calvinist belief that man is incapable of having faith as per total depravity.

Note total depravity includes within itself total inability—man does not have the capability of repentance or faith.

Good. Always trying to further Calvinist belief.

Anything else?

 

[TomL]

Good. Always trying to further Calvinist belief.

Anything else?

That is funny.

You never addressed a single verse I posted that called into question total depravity and its inclusion of total inability.

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (LEB) — 7 One moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to uproot, and to tear down, and to destroy it. 8 But if that nation turns back from its evil that I have threatened against it, then I will relent concerning the disaster that I planned to do to it. 9 And the next moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant it. 10 But if it does evil in my sight, to not listen to my voice, then I will relent concerning the good that I said I would do to it.

Ezekiel 18:21–24 (LEB) — 21 But if the wicked returns from all of his sins that he has done and he keeps all of my statutes and he does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die! 22 All of his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him. Through his righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I delight by any means in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord Yahweh, and not at his turning from his way, so that he lives? 24 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness, so that he does injustice, and does all of the detestable things that the wicked do, then will he live because of all of his righteousness that he did? Those things will not be remembered because of his infidelity that he displayed, and because of his sin that he committed. Through them he shall die.

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Ezekiel 33:13–15 (LEB) — 13 When I say to the righteous, ‘Certainly he will live,’ and he trusted in his righteousness, and he turns and he does injustice, all of his righteousness will not be remembered, and because of his injustice that he did, because of it he will die. 14 And when I say to the wicked, ‘Certainly you will die,’ but he returns from his sin and he does justice and righteousness— 15 for example, the wicked returns a pledge for a loan, he restores stolen property, he goes in the statutes of life so as not to do injustice—certainly he will live; he will not die.

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

Luke 13:24 (LEB) — 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able to,

Deuteronomy 4:29–32 (LEB) — 29 But from there you shall seek Yahweh your God and will find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 In your distress when all these things have found you in the latter days, then you will return to Yahweh your God, and you will listen to his voice. 31 For Yahweh your God is a compassionate God; he will not abandon you, and he will not destroy you, and he will not forget the covenant of your ancestors that he swore to them. 32 “Yes, ask, please, about former days that preceded you from the day that God created humankind on the earth; ask even from one end of the heaven up to the other end of heaven whether anything ever happened like this great thing or whether anything like it was ever heard.

Total depravity is clearly called into question in these verses

Note the obvious support showing the ability to repent, and respond to God, and even to live.

 

[Presby02]

That is funny.

You never addressed a single verse I posted that called into question total depravity and its inclusion of total inability.


Note the obvious support showing the ability to repent, and respond to God, and even to live.

I will say it again. The point of my post was not to address your allged proof texts. What about that statement dont you get?

I will say this for the last time also, so this thread can return to the OP.

Repentance and belief are granted or given by God. No one can come to God unless it is given or granted by God.

You may have the last word so the topic of this thread may continue.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I will say it again. The point of my post was not to address your allged proof texts. What about that statement dont you get?

I will say this for the last time also, so this thread can return to the OP.

Repentance and belief are granted or given by God. No one can come to God unless it is given or granted by God.

You may have the last word so the topic of this thread may continue.

so God withholds or does not grant certain peoples repentance..

Got it

 

[Jim]

I will say it again. The point of my post was not to address your allged proof texts. What about that statement dont you get?

I will say this for the last time also, so this thread can return to the OP.

Repentance and belief are granted or given by God. No one can come to God unless it is given or granted by God.

You may have the last word so the topic of this thread may continue.

To grant and to give in relation to repentance and belief are two different things entirely. To not distinguish the difference between given and grant is to not know and understand either.

 

[TomL]

I will say it again. The point of my post was not to address your allged proof texts. What about that statement dont you get?

I will say this for the last time also, so this thread can return to the OP.

Repentance and belief are granted or given by God. No one can come to God unless it is given or granted by God.

You may have the last word so the topic of this thread may continue.

Translation: You refuse to judge or justify your beliefs based upon the testimony and exegesis of the whole of scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, unrepentant men are not regenerated.

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

Luke 13:3 (LEB) — 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well!

Mark 1:15 (LEB) — 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

Conversion is only for the regenerated person, and Jesus is the author of it, if you read on in Acts 3 you see Jesus actually turned them from their sins Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

He gives them repentance as stated in Acts 5:31 so He gave them conversion Acts 3:19

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

And this is limited to the Covenant children

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

So its only for the elect

 

[TomL]

Conversion is only for the regenerated person, and Jesus is the author of it, if you read on in Acts 3 you see Jesus actually turned them from their sins Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

He gives them repentance as stated in Acts 5:31 so He gave them conversion Acts 3:19

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

And this is limited to the Covenant children

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

So its only for the elect

Yet again ignoring scripture and sellective acceptance of it is a tactic you employ

Sorry, unrepentant men are not regenerated.

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

Luke 13:3 (LEB) — 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well!

Mark 1:15 (LEB) — 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

Now nothing at all is stated about God irresistibly causing this based on an uncondition election from before the start of the world

Acts 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Nor is it stated when they are turned away from their iniquities.

You are simply assuming your theology, reading it into the text while ignoring all texts that are contrary to your theology.

 

[Presby02]

so God withholds or does not grant certain peoples repentance..

Got it

To grant and to give in relation to repentance and belief are two different things entirely. To not distinguish the difference between given and grant is to not know and understand either.

If i say i grant you permission, what does that mean?

 

[Jim]

If i say i grant you permission, what does that mean?

And if I say I have been granted a degree in engineering, what does that mean?

 

[Presby02]

And if I say I have been granted a degree in engineering, what does that mean?

You were given a degree?

 

[Jim]

You were given a degree?

And what is a degree? A piece of paper?

 

[TomL]

To grant and to give in relation to repentance and belief are two different things entirely. To not distinguish the difference between given and grant is to not know and understand either.

Absolutely

God may employ a means externally that may cause you to regret your sin or believe as opposed to internally changing you so that you do repent or believe.

That would be a grant

The first method may be resisted.

The second is irresistible.

Here they would be imparted internally

 

[Presby02]

And what is a degree? A piece of paper?

Ya and? You were still goven it correct?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If i say i grant you permission, what does that mean?

It means you grant me permission to repent.

If God grants me permission but not someone else who is just as guilty as I am,

he has withheld his permission from them..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You were given a degree?

what did he do to get that degree.. as apposed to someone who did not get that agree