Educating unitarians on biblical worship

You are ignoring the fact that I gave you a passage that directly calls Jesus ὁ Θεός, the God; a type of passage that you said couldn’t be found.

Jesus did not correct Thomas, didn’t rebuke him as the angel in Rev 1 rebuked John.

Again, Jesus says he was worthy of the same honor as the Father. Only God is worthy of such honor, and by claiming to be worthy of it, he was saying he was God too- which was what the Jewish leaders accused him of saying by calling himself the Son of God and thereby making himself equal with God! John 5:18

Doug
It technically doesn't address Jesus as Thomas didn't say "You are the god." You also haven't demonstrated why it needs to be capitalized and why Jesus responded with a rebuke immediately afterwards, suggesting that Thomas is not blessed.
 
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Sure sounds like Jesus, the Lamb, was being worshipped by “every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea” as well as “the four living creatures…and the elders”!


Doug
Read the context beginning in verse 7. Jesus isn't the throne-sitter.

In Revelation 5 Lamb approached the One on the throne, the elders encircled the throne, then fell down and worshipped.

Revelation 5: 7 "He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne."
Revelation 5:11 "many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders."
Revelation 5:14 "the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped."

As we can see here, the glorified, resurrected, exalted, and ascended Jesus is still not being worshipped as God in heaven.
 
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It technically doesn't address Jesus as Thomas didn't say "You are the god." You also haven't demonstrated why it needs to be capitalized and why Jesus responded with a rebuke immediately afterwards, suggesting that Thomas is not blessed.
“The God” is precisely what he said! Anytime you have ὁ Θεός, it literally means “the God” in Greek, which when translated to English is always written as God. (The only exception to this that I can recall is 2Cor 4:4, where Satan is called “the god of this world”. There may be other examples that refer the deities of other people that I don’t recall off the top of my head.)

Jesus didn’t rebuke Thomas for saying “My Lord and my God”, but said that he had to see to believe had risen, but those who will believe without seeing are more blessed.

Doug
 
Read the context beginning in verse 7. Jesus isn't the throne-sitter.

In Revelation 5 Lamb approached the One on the throne, the elders encircled the throne, then fell down and worshipped.

Revelation 5: 7 "He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne."
Revelation 5:11 "many angels encircling the throne, and the living creatures and the elders."
Revelation 5:14 "the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped."

As we can see here, the glorified, resurrected, exalted, and ascended Jesus is still not being worshipped as God in heaven.
Didn’t say that he was the one “on the throne”; I am saying that both the one seated on the throne and the Lamb, Jesus, are the ones being worshipped. Grammatically, they are a corporate subject of worship.


Doug
 
“The God” is precisely what he said! Anytime you have ὁ Θεός, it literally means “the God” in Greek, which when translated to English is always written as God. (The only exception to this that I can recall is 2Cor 4:4, where Satan is called “the god of this world”. There may be other examples that refer the deities of other people that I don’t recall off the top of my head.)
Even if Thomas was meaning to address Jesus, it would would identify Jesus as the god Thomas, but no one else in the Bible. It's not repeatable either. Jesus never taught anyone that he is the God, no one else called him the God, John and Peter didn't believe Jesus is the God (Acts 4:23-31) and many other examples. You're likely misunderstanding the context since the Bible only teaches about the Father being God alone.
Jesus didn’t rebuke Thomas for saying “My Lord and my God”, but said that he had to see to believe had risen, but those who will believe without seeing are more blessed.

Doug
In John 20:24, Thomas said “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” and after Thomas' "my god" comment, Jesus didn't reply with praise, but rather by telling Thomas he isn't blessed for his doubting attitude “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
Didn’t say that he was the one “on the throne”; I am saying that both the one seated on the throne and the Lamb, Jesus, are the ones being worshipped. Grammatically, they are a corporate subject of worship.


Doug
Doesn't say any such thing about the the Lamb being worshipped. It says the One on the throne and the Lamb have praise and honor and glory and power, but no mention of a shared worship. Actually, they are only worshipping physically around the throne where the Lamb is not. The Lamb is probably worshipping God with them if I had to guess.
 
Doesn't say any such thing about the the Lamb being worshipped. It says the One on the throne and the Lamb have praise and honor and glory and power, but no mention of a shared worship. Actually, they are only worshipping physically around the throne where the Lamb is not. The Lamb is probably worshipping God with them if I had to guess.
Wrong!

Rev5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Doug
 
In John 20:24, Thomas said “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” and after Thomas' "my god" comment, Jesus didn't reply with praise, but rather by telling Thomas he isn't blessed for his doubting attitude “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
He didn’t say Thomas wasn’t blessed, he said Thomas didn’t believe the reports that Jesus was risen until he actually saw him at that moment; but “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

There is nothing that says Thomas wasn’t blessed. There is no condemnation of Thomas, and Jesus was not neutral about anyone.

Doug
 
Doesn't say any such thing about the the Lamb being worshipped. It says the One on the throne and the Lamb have praise and honor and glory and power, but no mention of a shared worship. Actually, they are only worshipping physically around the throne where the Lamb is not. The Lamb is probably worshipping God with them if I had to guess.
Praise is an act of worship!


Doug
 
Wrong!

Rev5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Doug
That's a different throne. See verse 7 "He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne." and there is no mention of returning to the other throne. The elders were worshipping at a different throne while the Lamb was presumably either standing off to the side or worshipping God with them. I have a handful of trinitarian commentaries that agree with this by the way. Let me know if you need me to show you.
 
Praise is an act of worship!


Doug
No it isn't. Did you know believers receive praise in the Bible? You're conflating words again. You attempted to do it with honor in John 5, now you're trying to do it with praise in Revelation 5. I think you're just making things up as you go along at this point.
 
He didn’t say Thomas wasn’t blessed, he said Thomas didn’t believe the reports that Jesus was risen until he actually saw him at that moment; but “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

There is nothing that says Thomas wasn’t blessed. There is no condemnation of Thomas, and Jesus was not neutral about anyone.

Doug
Thomas said "Unless I see I will never believe."
Jesus said " blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doesn't meet the requirements for the blessing.
 
Now that we have schooled trinitarians on proper Biblical worship, this thread is settled
If we must honor the Son just as we honor the Father (John 5:23), then worshiping Jesus isn’t wrong — it’s required.

κρεῖσσον ἐστὶ δοκεῖν μωρὸν εἶναι ἢ ἀνοίξαντα τὸ στόμα πᾶσαν ἀμφιβολίαν ἀφελεῖν.
 
If we must honor the Son just as we honor the Father (John 5:23), then worshiping Jesus isn’t wrong — it’s required.
John 5:22,23 says the reason why Jesus is honored is because he is the appointed judge, not because he is God. Judgement in the Bible is delegated many times (Exodus 18:26, Deuteronomy 1:17, Psalm 81:1-17, etc) but delegation does not imply deity.

Furthermore, the word honor is not equal to the word worship. Words about worship or prayer don't appear here at all. People like Jesus and others are honored in the Bible: Parents (Matt 15:4), kings (1 Peter 2:17) elders (1 Tim 5:17) Jesus (John 5:23,24) and so on.

The son was assigned all judgement, meaning he didn't already have it until after he was assigned it. Means Jesus isn't co-equal with God. and "just as" refers to honor as a representative not being identical to God.

No mention of worship here. Actually, this verse is a major argument against trinitarianism.

John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
κρεῖσσον ἐστὶ δοκεῖν μωρὸν εἶναι ἢ ἀνοίξαντα τὸ στόμα πᾶσαν ἀμφιβολίαν ἀφελεῖν.
Your words to start living by soon.
 
John 5:22,23 says the reason why Jesus is honored is because he is the appointed judge, not because he is God. Judgement in the Bible is delegated many times (Exodus 18:26, Deuteronomy 1:17, Psalm 81:1-17, etc) but delegation does not imply deity.

Furthermore, the word honor is not equal to the word worship. Words about worship or prayer don't appear here at all. People like Jesus and others are honored in the Bible: Parents (Matt 15:4), kings (1 Peter 2:17) elders (1 Tim 5:17) Jesus (John 5:23,24) and so on.

The son was assigned all judgement, meaning he didn't already have it until after he was assigned it. Means Jesus isn't co-equal with God. and "just as" refers to honor as a representative not being identical to God.

No mention of worship here. Actually, this verse is a major argument against trinitarianism.

John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Your words to start living by soon.
Dont worry, be happy.... I hit ignore before this reply
 
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