Doctrine of eternal punishment

[civic]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal tormentfor the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of thosewho suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.



Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fireis the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Studyman]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal tormentfor the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

I would question the doctrine started by the "other voice" in the garden with Eve, in my view. Namely "Thou shall surely not die". It is said that satan in an immortal being, and the "Lake of Fire" is reserved for him who cannot "die". But men must receive immortality, as they are not born with it. They die, and until God raises them from the dead, they remain dead. I this not true?

Matt. 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

To say men are born with immortality is not supported by Scriptures. Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Jesus of the bible said; Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I have no doubt that the worm, and the Fire will remain forever to destroy any mortal being that is dropped into it. And I can certainly understand the anguish and the anger of those who will be shown they could have been granted eternal "LIFE" if they had just turned to God. But the implication of this ancient doctrine of the RCC, that all men are born immortal, or that God gives "ALL" men "Immortality" so they can suffer forever with the angel that deceived them, though popular, is not Scriptural, in my view.

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

No doubt there will be "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that will be pleading with Him. "Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are? We taught in your name!! We built massive shrines of worship in your name". We got folks off of drugs in your name. But when Jesus tells them that because the worked iniquity He doesn't know them, No doubt they will become angry and curse Him shortly before being cast into the Lake of Fire, reserved for immortal beings.

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, I have no doubt that God preserves their soul until the final Judgment. As the Christ of the Bible teaches. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If the reward for the Righteous is "Life Everlasting", this would then mean that we didn't already have "Life Everlasting", Yes? Shall the Reward for the Unrighteous not be "Death Everlasting"? That is, a "Second Death", a death in which there is not return, no more resurrections, an "Eternal Death"?

2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

2 Peter 2: 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If Hell is eternal torment, and Hell gave up their dead to be judged, how does that make sense? How did they get into eternal torment, before the Judgment? And if they were "DEAD" how were they tormented?

How were unjust men "Reserved" unto the Judgment? They were "DEAD", Yes? And what of those men written in the book of Life? Were they also not "Dead" before God raised them?

Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of thosewho suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

What happened to the men of Sodom? Did God not kill them with Fire and Brimstone? Would this not be His Eternal Fire? Are the men of Sodom wailing and gnashing their teeth in the Middle East somewhere? Or were they killed, and are awaiting the final Judgment when they will be raised from the Dead and judged according to their works?

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

True, but there is nothing here that say these men will last forever. Only that the Darkness and Destruction promised has been preserved forever.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Yes, not the "Second Life"? This is an Eternal Death, a death from which there is no return. "Death Everlasting". Nothing here about humans becoming immortal and living forever.

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Is the "Beast" a mortal being? Did Paul not say that satan itself was disguised as an Angel of Light? Do you not believe that there are evil angels among us?

2 Cor. 11: 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Wasn't the Lake of Fire preserved for these very beings, who are immortal.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This doesn't say that mortal men are tormented forever, only the immortal angel called the devil, and his angels that were cast down with him. They were tormented forever. Mortal men, both body and soul, will be destroyed. Killed by eternal fire. A death in which there is no return. Death Everlasting!!
Psalms 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fireis the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This doesn't say "Second Life" in torment with immortal beings forever. This is "Death eternal".

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:


Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

Truly the consequences for the wicked is Death. Eternal Death, a Death in which there is no return. Death everlasting.

The wages of sin is death, not life everlasting. The teaching that God punishes mortal humans with eternal life, to suffer along with the angels that deceived them, is popular in the religions of this world. But when a man studies only the Scriptures apart from the influence of ancient religious doctrines of the RCC, they will find that God is not that kind of monster. That His Inspired Word doesn't teach such a thing. As His Son teaches.

Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Their reward is this life, not life everlasting in torment.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Do the Study my friend. Try to separate yourself from the influences of this world's religions we were both born into. If you do, I think you will find what I and others have found. That eternal life is something we are not born with, but a reward that the Christ of the Bible brings with Him, on His Return.

 

[civic]

I would question the doctrine started by the "other voice" in the garden with Eve, in my view. Namely "Thou shall surely not die". It is said that satan in an immortal being, and the "Lake of Fire" is reserved for him who cannot "die". But men must receive immortality, as they are not born with it. They die, and until God raises them from the dead, they remain dead. I this not true?

Matt. 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

To say men are born with immortality is not supported by Scriptures. Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Jesus of the bible said; Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I have no doubt that the worm, and the Fire will remain forever to destroy any mortal being that is dropped into it. And I can certainly understand the anguish and the anger of those who will be shown they could have been granted eternal "LIFE" if they had just turned to God. But the implication of this ancient doctrine of the RCC, that all men are born immortal, or that God gives "ALL" men "Immortality" so they can suffer forever with the angel that deceived them, though popular, is not Scriptural, in my view.



No doubt there will be "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that will be pleading with Him. "Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are? We taught in your name!! We built massive shrines of worship in your name". We got folks off of drugs in your name. But when Jesus tells them that because the worked iniquity He doesn't know them, No doubt they will become angry and curse Him shortly before being cast into the Lake of Fire, reserved for immortal beings.



Again, I have no doubt that God preserves their soul until the final Judgment. As the Christ of the Bible teaches. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

If the reward for the Righteous is "Life Everlasting", this would then mean that we didn't already have "Life Everlasting", Yes? Shall the Reward for the Unrighteous not be "Death Everlasting"? That is, a "Second Death", a death in which there is not return, no more resurrections, an "Eternal Death"?


2 Peter 2: 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If Hell is eternal torment, and Hell gave up their dead to be judged, how does that make sense? How did they get into eternal torment, before the Judgment? And if they were "DEAD" how were they tormented?

How were unjust men "Reserved" unto the Judgment? They were "DEAD", Yes? And what of those men written in the book of Life? Were they also not "Dead" before God raised them?



What happened to the men of Sodom? Did God not kill them with Fire and Brimstone? Would this not be His Eternal Fire? Are the men of Sodom wailing and gnashing their teeth in the Middle East somewhere? Or were they killed, and are awaiting the final Judgment when they will be raised from the Dead and judged according to their works?



True, but there is nothing here that say these men will last forever. Only that the Darkness and Destruction promised has been preserved forever.



Yes, not the "Second Life"? This is an Eternal Death, a death from which there is no return. "Death Everlasting". Nothing here about humans becoming immortal and living forever.



Is the "Beast" a mortal being? Did Paul not say that satan itself was disguised as an Angel of Light? Do you not believe that there are evil angels among us?

2 Cor. 11: 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Wasn't the Lake of Fire preserved for these very beings, who are immortal.



This doesn't say that mortal men are tormented forever, only the immortal angel called the devil, and his angels that were cast down with him. They were tormented forever. Mortal men, both body and soul, will be destroyed. Killed by eternal fire. A death in which there is no return. Death Everlasting!!
Psalms 37: 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


This doesn't say "Second Life" in torment with immortal beings forever. This is "Death eternal".



Truly the consequences for the wicked is Death. Eternal Death, a Death in which there is no return. Death everlasting.

The wages of sin is death, not life everlasting. The teaching that God punishes mortal humans with eternal life, to suffer along with the angels that deceived them, is popular in the religions of this world. But when a man studies only the Scriptures apart from the influence of ancient religious doctrines of the RCC, they will find that God is not that kind of monster. That His Inspired Word doesn't teach such a thing. As His Son teaches.

Matt. 6: 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Their reward is this life, not life everlasting in torment.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Do the Study my friend. Try to separate yourself from the influences of this world's religions we were both born into. If you do, I think you will find what I and others have found. That eternal life is something we are not born with, but a reward that the Christ of the Bible brings with Him, on His Return.

Our souls are immortal

 

[Studyman]

Our souls are immortal

I know this is a popular religious doctrine. But the Jesus of the Bible told men to fear the Power who can kill both the Body and Soul. If we are born immortal, then there is no Power that can kill both body and soul. Just as God has no Power to "Kill" satan.

If we are born immortal, then immortality is not a gift that Jesus brings at the last trump.

1 Cor. 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

If Paul's soul wasn't immortal in this letter, then my soul certainly isn't. And this would certainly explain why the Jesus of the Bible warned of the Power who can not only kill the Body, but the Soul as well.

Nevertheless, I wanted to share my understanding regarding this popular doctrine. I know how deeply it is believed on by this world's religions.

Thanks for the opportunity to share.

 

[atpollard]

Luke 16 (CSB)

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen, feasting lavishly every day. 20 But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was lying at his gate. 21 He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side. 24 ‘Father Abraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’

25 “ ‘Son,’ Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.’

27 “ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house —  28 because I have five brothers — to warn them, so that they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’

30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ”


A simple question, if ECT is false, why did Jesus (the only person that knew the truth) lie about it in the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus?

 

[Studyman]

Luke 16 (CSB)

The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen, feasting lavishly every day. 20 But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was lying at his gate. 21 He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side.

Where was Abraham. He had not yet received the Promise at the first coming of the Christ.

Heb. 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

David was also still dead and buried according to Peter.

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

So would Abraham be raised before David? Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Cor. 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This had not yet happened in Peter or Paul's Time.

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So then, Abraham David and Lazarus were raised in the First Resurrection, Yes? Which had not yet happened in New Testament Times, but some time afterwards, at the return of the Lord's Christ. An event that has not yet happened, at least I don't believe it has happened. But this is a Parable about the 2nd resurrection. It has to be.

The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side.

So according to the Scriptures, this must be speaking of the "Second" Resurrection. Those who were not raised in the First one, with Abraham, David and Lazarus. The Scriptures say they "Lived not again" until the thousand years were finished. Well he is living now, and he saw Abraham, who had been raised with Lazarus and David for a thousand years. It seems he also sees the Lake of Fire and knows he is about to be killed, both body and soul.

24 ‘Father Abraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’

How long has he been there? Is he just now seeing Abraham afar off? Has Abraham and Lazarus not been alive with Christ for a thousand years? It seems the rich man just got here.

25 “ ‘Son,’ Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.’

This is the outer darkness, this guy just woke up, and finds himself in a bad spot. But Abraham, who has been alive for a thousand years, can't cross that gulf to help him where he is. The point being, it's too late for him, and he is finding this out.

27 “ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house —  28 because I have five brothers — to warn them, so that they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

It's been a thousand years, where are his brothers? Surely they are dead and buried by now. They aren't raised with Abraham, so it appears they are waiting their turn for the judgment. It appears we face the judgment alone. This guy doesn't mention the others Jesus said would be also cast into the fire. He only sees those who have already been resurrected in the first resurrection.

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Perhaps we would be wise to really consider what the Parable is saying.

A simple question, if ECT is false, why did Jesus (the only person that knew the truth) lie about it in the story about the Rich Man and Lazarus?

According to what is written in Scriptures regarding the 2 resurrections and the thousand years between them, I can't see where Jesus lied at all. When the rich man is dropped into the Lake of Fire, it will kill both his body and his soul, and bring him into "Death Everlasting". To believe otherwise, would be calling Jesus a liar, in my view.

 

[atpollard]

Where was Abraham. He had not yet received the Promise at the first coming of the Christ.

Heb. 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

David was also still dead and buried according to Peter.

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

So would Abraham be raised before David? Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1 Cor. 15: 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This had not yet happened in Peter or Paul's Time.

Rev. 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

So then, Abraham David and Lazarus were raised in the First Resurrection, Yes? Which had not yet happened in New Testament Times, but some time afterwards, at the return of the Lord's Christ. An event that has not yet happened, at least I don't believe it has happened. But this is a Parable about the 2nd resurrection. It has to be.



So according to the Scriptures, this must be speaking of the "Second" Resurrection. Those who were not raised in the First one, with Abraham, David and Lazarus. The Scriptures say they "Lived not again" until the thousand years were finished. Well he is living now, and he saw Abraham, who had been raised with Lazarus and David for a thousand years. It seems he also sees the Lake of Fire and knows he is about to be killed, both body and soul.



How long has he been there? Is he just now seeing Abraham afar off? Has Abraham and Lazarus not been alive with Christ for a thousand years? It seems the rich man just got here.




This is the outer darkness, this guy just woke up, and finds himself in a bad spot. But Abraham, who has been alive for a thousand years, can't cross that gulf to help him where he is. The point being, it's too late for him, and he is finding this out.



It's been a thousand years, where are his brothers? Surely they are dead and buried by now. They aren't raised with Abraham, so it appears they are waiting their turn for the judgment. It appears we face the judgment alone. This guy doesn't mention the others Jesus said would be also cast into the fire. He only sees those who have already been resurrected in the first resurrection.



Perhaps we would be wise to really consider what the Parable is saying.



According to what is written in Scriptures regarding the 2 resurrections and the thousand years between them, I can't see where Jesus lied at all. When the rich man is dropped into the Lake of Fire, it will kill both his body and his soul, and bring him into "Death Everlasting". To believe otherwise, would be calling Jesus a liar, in my view.

Just one small comment … NOBODY hearing that story could possibly have reached that understanding. You have made Jesus’ clear message into an incomprehensible prophecy to the original hearers that required a second vision to decipher almost a hundred years later.

I disagree with your understanding of the simple message about three people in the land of the dead.

 

[Studyman]

Just one small comment … NOBODY hearing that story could possibly have reached that understanding. You have made Jesus’ clear message into an incomprehensible prophecy to the original hearers that required a second vision to decipher almost a hundred years later.

I don't believe that the Jesus of the Bible didn't know about the first and second "death" when HE gave His Disciples and the Pharisees who derided Him this Parable.

I don't believe that Jesus didn't understand what was later revealed about the Lake of Fire HE Himself said men would be cast into. And, as I pointed out, nothing Jesus said in the Parable contradicted what was later revealed. If it were not for Catholic doctrine, there is nothing in Scriptures which would promote the popular belief, promoted by the other voice in the garden since the beginning, that "You shall surely not die". It's a seductive philosophy to be true and worked to keep men giving money to the various religious businesses of this world for a very long time. But I simply don't believe the Scriptures promote the popular religious philosophy, "You shall surely not die".

You are simply viewing scriptures through the prism of ancient catholic traditions that both you and I were born into. Though the prism of the popular religious philosophy that everyone is given by God the gift of immortality, some just spend it in torment.

I have provided Biblical evidence, strong evidence including the Words of the Christ Himself, which exposes this religious philosophy as questionable at least, and an outright deception at most.

It seems worthy to me, of study and examination of Scriptures. All of them, not just ones that can be used to preserve the tradition.

I disagree with your understanding of the simple message about three people in the land of the dead.

No, you are promoting the doctrine that nobody dies. I don't believe the scriptures support this doctrine and have posted scriptures for your review and examination explaining why. And you don't acknowledge or have any desire to examine them. That's fine, you are free to do as you wish. I am simply sharing a perspective of one who hasn't adopted ancient religious doctrine or traditions regarding this topic.

Thanks for the discussion though, it is good for men to "test the spirits" in my view.

 

[atpollard]

THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE SECOND DEATH:

• [Rev 2:11 NASB20] 11 'The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
• [Rev 20:6, 14 NASB20] 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ...
• 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
• [Rev 21:8 NASB20] 8 "But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

THE FIRE NEVER ENDS (IT IS UNQUENCHABLE):

• [Mat 3:12 NASB20] 12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
• [Mat 18:8 NASB20] 8 "And if your hand or your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or without a foot, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire.
• [Mat 25:41 NASB20] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
• [Mar 9:43, 48 NASB20] 43 "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. ... 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT EXTINGUISHED.
• [Luk 3:17 NASB20] 17 "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

WITHIN THIS LAKE OF FIRE, THE GUILTY FIND ETERNAL PUNISHMENT / TORMENT:

• [Luk 16:23, 28 NASB20] 23 "And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. ...
• 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not come to this place of torment as well.'
• [Rev 14:11 NASB20] 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
• [2Th 1:6-10 NASB20] 6 For after all it is [only] right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and [to give] relief to you who are afflicted, [along] with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--because our testimony to you was believed.
• [Mat 25:46 NASB20] 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

No pagan imagery, just clear Biblical imagery repeated as a warning … over and over and over.
(and it works)

Hebrews 10:26-31 [CSB]

For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. Anyone who disregarded the law of Moses died without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who has said, ​

Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, ​

and again, ​

The Lord will judge his people. ​

It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

 

[atpollard]

I don't believe that the Jesus of the Bible didn't know about the first and second "death" when HE gave His Disciples and the Pharisees who derided Him this Parable.

Jesus knows everything, He is God … His listeners would only have His words in the story to understand from … they could not know about a future revelation that turns the meaning on its head. It is a story about three men in the land of the dead … Abraham (the father of faith and patriarch of the Hebrew people), A Rich Man trapped in fiery torment and concerned about his brothers joining him, and Lazarus, receiving comfort in death that he was denied in life. That is what the hearers would have heard.

So why did Jesus deliberately mislead everyone if that is not an accurate picture of the fates of men? Why do so many verses support EXACTLY that view of sorting people into two groups, one for eternal blessings and the other for eternal suffering and fire?

 

[Studyman]

Jesus knows everything, He is God …

Yes, Jesus knew Abraham and the righteous would be raised and reign with HIM for a thousand years, before the Rich Man in the Parable "Lived again". His Parable showed that Abraham was already raised when he opened eyes.

His listeners would only have His words in the story to understand from … they could not know about a future revelation that turns the meaning on its head.

This Parable was a rebuke to the Pharisees. It was not a lesson regarding the return of the Christ, which in the Parable had already happened.

Luke 16: 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

It is a story about three men in the land of the dead …
Abraham (the father of faith and patriarch of the Hebrew people), A Rich Man trapped in fiery torment and concerned about his brothers joining him, and Lazarus, receiving comfort in death that he was denied in life. That is what the hearers would have heard.

No, the rebuke, is about what an unrighteous dead man sees when his eyes are opened for the first time after being dead and buried, in who knows how many thousands of years. And why he was there. "He didn't hear Moses and the Prophets"

So why did Jesus deliberately mislead everyone if that is not an accurate picture of the fates of men?

He deceived no one. You are viewing His Words through the prism of ancient religious tradition. Jesus already told you what befalls the fates of men. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Peter tells you where Abraham and David are.

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David understood. Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Isaiah understood this.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

You have been convinced by the other voice in the garden, that men "shall surely not die". But men are born mortal. Immortality is a gift mortal humans must be given. The Lake of fire was reserved for immortal angels. It will destroy the Souls of mortal men, if they are dropped into it.

Would you be scared and then angry if you believed the religion you adopted taught you the truth, even though the Scriptures exposed it as false. And you died and were buried, and after thousands of years, which only seemed like a second to a dead man, your eyes open and you see the Righteous afar off with Abraham, but you are near a lake of fire and just learned you were going to be thrown into it?

Jesus said what it would be like in Matt. 7. First many will say, "In that day" that the rich man was in, "But wait a minute Jesus, didn't I go to church every week? Didn't I teach in your name? Only to have Him say, "depart from me" into the lake of fire. No doubt there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why do so many verses support EXACTLY that view of sorting people into two groups, one for eternal blessings and the other for eternal suffering and fire?

I agree there are two groups. But I don't agree that God gives both groups, based on what is actually written, "Eternal Life". So then, one group of mortals receive "Eternal Life". The other group of mortals receive "Eternal death".

There is nothing in this Parable Jesus told, that contradicts this. But the doctrines of mortals receiving eternal life to share with the demons that deceived them, there is no real support for that popular doctrine.

Is that really how men see the God of Abraham.

Nevertheless, it is a great discussion to have, and an important one in my view.

 

[civic]

Yes, Jesus knew Abraham and the righteous would be raised and reign with HIM for a thousand years, before the Rich Man in the Parable "Lived again". His Parable showed that Abraham was already raised when he opened eyes.



This Parable was a rebuke to the Pharisees. It was not a lesson regarding the return of the Christ, which in the Parable had already happened.

Luke 16: 14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.



No, the rebuke, is about what an unrighteous dead man sees when his eyes are opened for the first time after being dead and buried, in who knows how many thousands of years. And why he was there. "He didn't hear Moses and the Prophets"



He deceived no one. You are viewing His Words through the prism of ancient religious tradition. Jesus already told you what befalls the fates of men. Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Peter tells you where Abraham and David are.

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David understood. Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Isaiah understood this.

Is. 38: 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

You have been convinced by the other voice in the garden, that men "shall surely not die". But men are born mortal. Immortality is a gift mortal humans must be given. The Lake of fire was reserved for immortal angels. It will destroy the Souls of mortal men, if they are dropped into it.

Would you be scared and then angry if you believed the religion you adopted taught you the truth, even though the Scriptures exposed it as false. And you died and were buried, and after thousands of years, which only seemed like a second to a dead man, your eyes open and you see the Righteous afar off with Abraham, but you are near a lake of fire and just learned you were going to be thrown into it?

Jesus said what it would be like in Matt. 7. First many will say, "In that day" that the rich man was in, "But wait a minute Jesus, didn't I go to church every week? Didn't I teach in your name? Only to have Him say, "depart from me" into the lake of fire. No doubt there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



I agree there are two groups. But I don't agree that God gives both groups, based on what is actually written, "Eternal Life". So then, one group of mortals receive "Eternal Life". The other group of mortals receive "Eternal death".

There is nothing in this Parable Jesus told, that contradicts this. But the doctrines of mortals receiving eternal life to share with the demons that deceived them, there is no real support for that popular doctrine.

Is that really how men see the God of Abraham.

Nevertheless, it is a great discussion to have, and an important one in my view.

Thanks and I can appreciate a good discussion where we might disagree with someone and keep the dialogue respectful. Good job to you and @atpollard !

 

[Complete]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal tormentfor the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of thosewho suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.



Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fireis the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

Hello @civic,

The references you have given appear to all refer to the fires of end-time judgment. The fires of Gehenna being for destruction at the end of the age. I do not believe that the Scriptures refer to Hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

 

[civic]

Hello @civic,

The references you have given appear to all refer to the fires of end-time judgment. The fires of Gehenna being for destruction at the end of the age. I do not believe that the Scriptures refer to Hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus

Yes the eternal flames are in the lake of fire that burns forever and ever.

 

[Complete]

Yes the eternal flames are in the lake of fire that burns forever and ever.

@civic said:-
The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Hello @civic,

I would ask you to reconsider, for that is not my conclusion: following a study on the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, with all their separate usages, including 'hell': Hell being a middle-English word meaning 'to conceal or cover', used for, 'the place of the dead', or. 'the grave'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

Hello @civic,

I would ask you to reconsider, for that is not my conclusion: following a study on the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo, with all their separate usages, including 'hell': Hell being a middle-English word meaning 'to conceal or cover', used for, 'the place of the dead', or. 'the grave'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

See below why I believe its everlasting, eternal, never ending.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Complete]

Hello @civic,

The Beast and the False Prophet are to be tormented day and night, 'for ever and ever': but In Revelation 20:12-15, it is 'the DEAD', and death and Hades themselves which are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second DEATH.

DEATH is the absence of life, where there is no life there is no consciousness: no sense, nothing with the ability to experience anything. This is final destruction.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chirs

 

[atpollard]

Matthew 25:46 [NASB] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

• same "eternal" for both destinies.
• Eternal PUNISHMENT [G2851: penal infliction:—punishment, torment] not Eternal DESTRUCTION

 

[civic]

Hello @civic,

The Beast and the False Prophet are to be tormented day and night, 'for ever and ever'. In Revelation 20:12-15, it is 'the DEAD', and death and Hades themselves which are thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second DEATH.

DEATH is the absence of life, where there is no life there is no consciousness: no sense, nothing with the ability to experience anything. This is final destruction.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chirs

Death is not the absence of life. To be absent from the body ( dead ) is to be present with the Lord. Our spirit/ souls are eternal . They had a beginning but do not have an end. I will be glad to discuss this some more with you after I’m off work today.

 

[Complete]

'We are confident, I say,
and willing rather
to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.'
(2Co 5:8)

Hello @civic,

Death is indeed the absence of life. The Body (dust) returns to the earth where it came from, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it (Genesis 2:7/Eccl. 11:7) and man ceases to be a living soul: for the soul is not immortal. (see Ezekiel 18:4 & 20). It is only the power of the resurrection which can quicken and restore to life, and this will take place at that time of God's choosing.

Sadly, your use of 2 Corinthians 5:8 (above) is a misuse.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris