Doctrine of Burning in Hell Keeps People From Christ

[Wrangler]

Do you believe that in order to understand the Bible properly, it requires abdicating your reasoning mind?

Besides the trinity, the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell, is one of the biggest IDOLS keeping people from Christ. I know it was for me for decades! Consider the following 9 reasons:

1. INCOMPATIBLE WITH AN ALL-LOVING GOD

This is the big one. In the end, for most people, an all-loving God should be distinguishable from pure evil. There cannot be an idea more purely evil than to distort any notion of love or justice with ECT, eternal conscious torment.

Death is merciful & loving, not ECT.

2. OT DOESN’T TEACH ECT BUT DEATH

God told Adam that sin will result in death @ GE 2:17. If ECT is true, it means God lied.

except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.​

GE 2:17 (NLT)​

According to Peter, God does not want to prevent us from burning eternally but prevent us from death.

The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promise, as some consider him to be slow, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to be destroyed but for everyone to come to repentance.​

2 Peter 3:9​

3. JUSTICE

There is nothing equal about temporary sin resulting in eternal punishment. A human hardly lives a century. Even the most wicked life cannot be equally punished by ECT.

Some make an Appeal to Ignorance, supposing the human mind cannot understand the concepts of love and justice when preceded by the word divine.

Jesus is a man and can understand it. Jesus says many and few blows – not infinite in Luke 12:48. This suggests proportional punishment for wrongdoing, a balance justice demands, not an infinite number of blows for everyone, regardless of their sin, which is ultimately the case for ECT.

In order for ECT to be true, it means God and Jesus both lied.

4. BETTER OFF WITHOUT JESUS?

Before Jesus, the understanding from the OT was sin results in death.

Behold, they will be like stubble, the fire will burn them up. They will not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.​

IS 47:14 (REV)​

​

They will go out and look on the dead bodies of the people who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched​

IS 66:24 (REV)​

It is the worm that does not die, not us! It is the fire that is burns endlessly, not people!

Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says Lord Yahweh, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desire that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?’​

EZ 33:11 (REV)​

​

For I have told you often, and now tell you again in tears, that many walk as enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction.​

Phil 3:18-19​

If anything Jesus said is taken to reveal ECT is true, it means most people would be better off if Jesus had not come. The Good News of Jesus Christ cannot be for most, the punishment for sin went from death to ECT!

5. 2nd DEATH:

Dead is most common way to describe unbelievers, not ECT.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have life in the age to come.​

John 3:16 (REV)​

NOTE: John 3:16 does not say God sent his son to prevent ECT. Some make another Appeal to Ignorance, that “perish” or die means something mystical or spiritual, etc. This is either adding to God’s word or extreme eisegesis.

6. DEATH IS SUBSTITUTE FOR SIN, NOT ECT

There is not a single instance where sin is paid for with ECT. Every substitute for sin in Scripture is death.

If the penalty for sin is eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the full price.

7. SATAN’S LIE, YOU WON’T NOT DIE

ECT embraces Satan’s 1st lie.

8. OUR PEACE IN PARADISE

How could we enjoy paradise knowing ECT for our loved ones? True, the Bible says tears will be wiped away not that our emotional responses will be altered in the knowledge that people we loved in life are being tormented without end.

In Scripture “forever and ever” means “until the end of the age.” It does not mean unending.

9. ETERNAL PUNISHMENT FOR DEMONS ONLY

Trinitarians go to technique to “support” their doctrine is what I call artificial synthesis, cherry picking verses and splicing them together. There is no verse that says unrepentant, evil humans are fated for ECT.

Then he will also say to the ones on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the fire in the age to come, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.​

Mat 25:41 (REV)​

​

14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:14 (ESV)​

 

[jeremiah1five]

Do you believe that in order to understand the Bible properly, it requires abdicating your reasoning mind?

NOPE. Isaiah 1:18.
If one is born-again, they are literally saved.
And if one is born-again and saved then holding erroneous doctrine/understanding only affects relationship. And if one holds to erroneous understanding about God then they have erected an idol and it is the idol they worship, not the One True God.
At this point/date of your poll it is 2 to one "NO."

Besides the trinity, the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell, is one of the biggest IDOLS keeping people from Christ. I know it was for me for decades! Consider the following 9 reasons:

The one reason 'keeping someone from Christ' is their love for darkness and hatred of the light (Jn. 3:19-20.) Unless the stronger man bids the strong man and pilfers their goods those in possession of the strong man remain lost forever.

1. INCOMPATIBLE WITH AN ALL-LOVING GOD

This is the big one. In the end, for most people, an all-loving God should be distinguishable from pure evil. There cannot be an idea more purely evil than to distort any notion of love or justice with ECT, eternal conscious torment.

Death is merciful & loving, not ECT.

ECT? Evangelicals and Catholics Together?

2. OT DOESN’T TEACH ECT BUT DEATH

God told Adam that sin will result in death @ GE 2:17. If ECT is true, it means God lied.

except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.​

GE 2:17 (NLT)​

According to Peter, God does not want to prevent us from burning eternally but prevent us from death.

The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promise, as some consider him to be slow, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to be destroyed but for everyone to come to repentance.​

2 Peter 3:9​

Peter writes to Jewish Christians. Taking note of those he's addressed his letter to "elect" means God's chosen and it is these that will all come to repentance. And they all will 'in His time.'

3. JUSTICE

There is nothing equal about temporary sin resulting in eternal punishment. A human hardly lives a century. Even the most wicked life cannot be equally punished by ECT.

Some make an Appeal to Ignorance, supposing the human mind cannot understand the concepts of love and justice when preceded by the word divine.

Jesus is a man and can understand it. Jesus says many and few blows – not infinite in Luke 12:48. This suggests proportional punishment for wrongdoing, a balance justice demands, not an infinite number of blows for everyone, regardless of their sin, which is ultimately the case for ECT.

In order for ECT to be true, it means God and Jesus both lied.

He's the only one this side of heaven who can understand it.

4. BETTER OFF WITHOUT JESUS?

Before Jesus, the understanding from the OT was sin results in death.

Behold, they will be like stubble, the fire will burn them up. They will not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.​

IS 47:14 (REV)​

​

They will go out and look on the dead bodies of the people who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched​

IS 66:24 (REV)​

It is the worm that does not die, not us! It is the fire that is burns endlessly, not people!

Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says Lord Yahweh, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desire that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?’​

EZ 33:11 (REV)​

​

For I have told you often, and now tell you again in tears, that many walk as enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction.​

Phil 3:18-19​

If anything Jesus said is taken to reveal ECT is true, it means most people would be better off if Jesus had not come. The Good News of Jesus Christ cannot be for most, the punishment for sin went from death to ECT!

The "worm" is the mind. The consciousness. This word is interchangeable with "serpent" in Genesis.

5. 2nd DEATH:

Dead is most common way to describe unbelievers, not ECT.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have life in the age to come.​

John 3:16 (REV)​

NOTE: John 3:16 does not say God sent his son to prevent ECT. Some make another Appeal to Ignorance, that “perish” or die means something mystical or spiritual, etc. This is either adding to God’s word or extreme eisegesis.

God sent His Son to atone for those whose names are written by God in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. There was a great deal of activity in the heavenly Tabernacle before God created heaven, earth, and man.

6. DEATH IS SUBSTITUTE FOR SIN, NOT ECT

There is not a single instance where sin is paid for with ECT. Every substitute for sin in Scripture is death.

If the penalty for sin is eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the full price.

The definition of "sin" is death. The definition of "death" is sin. Sin IS death.

7. SATAN’S LIE, YOU WON’T NOT DIE

ECT embraces Satan’s 1st lie.

That's what the woman said to herself in the Garden. The carnal mind is enmity against God and His Law.

8. OUR PEACE IN PARADISE

How could we enjoy paradise knowing ECT for our loved ones? True, the Bible says tears will be wiped away not that our emotional responses will be altered in the knowledge that people we loved in life are being tormented without end.

In Scripture “forever and ever” means “until the end of the age.” It does not mean unending.

No, it means eternal.

9. ETERNAL PUNISHMENT FOR DEMONS ONLY

Trinitarians go to technique to “support” their doctrine is what I call artificial synthesis, cherry picking verses and splicing them together. There is no verse that says unrepentant, evil humans are fated for ECT.

Then he will also say to the ones on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the fire in the age to come, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.​

Mat 25:41 (REV)​

​

14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:14 (ESV)​

According to 2 Peter 2:4 that is the judgment the angels that sinned are awaiting.

 

[Wrangler]

I appreciate your post but need to ask.

ECT? Evangelicals and Catholics Together?

There was a great deal of activity in the heavenly Tabernacle before God created heaven, earth, and man.

Huh?

 

[Wrangler]

At this point/date of your poll it is 2 to one "NO."

I'm disappointed so few participate in their own culpability in denying Christ, in keeping others from Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I appreciate your post but need to ask.




Huh?

Moses was commanded to build the earthly Tabernacle using the pattern of the heavenly Tabernacle.
There was no use for a heavenly Tabernacle where sacrifice is performed unless there was a lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8.

49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Lk 11:49–51.

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:19–20.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:3–5.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt 25:34.

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Mt 13:35.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb 4:3.

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:26.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Jn 17:23–24.

Seems to me there was activity in the heavenly Tabernacle before God created heaven, earth, and man.
1. Christ was foreordained.
2. A lamb was slain.
3. A people were chosen.
4. The blood of the Lord's prophets was shed.
5. A kingdom was prepared.
6. Someone suffered "often" (but on earth once.)
7. Works were finished.
8. Christ [Logos] was loved.
9. Things were kept secret.

It is for these reasons also that I believe God created man (Adam) sin-ful. But that's another subject and thread.

So, what is ECT? I get the feeling it's not what I identified above.

 

[civic]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matt 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 25:46

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.


Rev 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Rev 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched

The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

hope this helps!!!

 

[Wrangler]

So, what is ECT?

Defined in the OP.

ECT, eternal conscious torment.

 

[Wrangler]

There was no use for a heavenly Tabernacle where sacrifice is performed unless there was a lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8.

I really cannot understand your claim or the condition that you assert requires it. From a nice translation:

Revelation 13:8

Contemporary English Version
​

8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed

I think you are getting confused with the wording of Scripture to mean something about time it did not mean.

The bigger point is the assertion that a lamb was slain in heaven and if this were not so, there would be no need for a heavenly tabernacle. You seem to be connecting things that are not connected. Why can't a tabernacle have a purpose other than slaying lambs as a sacrifice?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I really cannot understand your claim or the condition that you assert requires it. From a nice translation:

Revelation 13:8​

​

Contemporary English Version​

​

8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed

I think you are getting confused with the wording of Scripture to mean something about time it did not mean.

The bigger point is the assertion that a lamb was slain in heaven and if this were not so, there would be no need for a heavenly tabernacle. You seem to be connecting things that are not connected. Why can't a tabernacle have a purpose other than slaying lambs as a sacrifice?

Whatever activity and purpose of the earthly Tabernacle was patterned after the heavenly Tabernacle as commanded by God to Moses.
The heavenly pattern did not sit empty or without purpose.
God's will on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
● Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the
body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom
ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea,
I say unto you fear Him.

Was Christ wrong to instill a fear of God within his friends? No; I think he was
110% justified. For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the
US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein
we were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents involving
burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation,
crushing, and the like.

Let me tell you: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp
distinction between the fool and the wise. Somebody like Billy Graham needs to get
out there and let people know that they're up against a celestial despot far more
dangerous than the CCP and/or North Korea's Kim Jong-Un.

A Danger Foreseen;
Is Half-Avoided.
(Cheyenne Proverb)

A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton
goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
(Prov 22:3)

The kindness of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of what to expect
in the afterlife. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well
advised to use what time they have remaining to begin preparing themselves for
the worst when they cross over to the other side.
_

 

[Diserner]

Fear of hell has definitely been a grace that helped me stay devoted to Christ.

Hell in the Bible is very clearly ECT, and all deniers show in their arguments they reject it just because they don't like the idea.

 

[Wrangler]

Fear of hell has definitely been a grace that helped me stay devoted to Christ.

Hell in the Bible is very clearly ECT, and all deniers show in their arguments they reject it just because they don't like the idea.

No actual Bible verses necessary and no need to addres the actual Bible verses in the OP. Hmmm.

 

[Diserner]

No actual Bible verses necessary and no need to addres the actual Bible verses in the OP. Hmmm.

Yeah, people can make the verses say whatever they want.

Proof-texting never gets anywhere or proves anything, it's pointless self-affirmation.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Do you believe that in order to understand the Bible properly, it requires abdicating your reasoning mind?

Besides the trinity, the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell, is one of the biggest IDOLS keeping people from Christ. I know it was for me for decades! Consider the following 9 reasons:

1. INCOMPATIBLE WITH AN ALL-LOVING GOD

This seems to be a very common error in reasoning on this board. We are in no position to decide what is compatible or incompatible with a loving God. Take scripture for what it says. If you can't take scripture for what it says, then ask God to increase your faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yeah, people can make the verses say whatever they want.

Proof-texting never gets anywhere or proves anything, it's pointless self-affirmation.

Has the doctrine of everlasting torment actually brought you closer to God?

Do you remember when Jesus sought intimacy with His disciples.... by calling them friends?

While we are servants, the goal isn't one of absolute authority over us. It is agreement that God seeks from us.

How can two walk together except they be agreed?

Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

Serving from a place of "compliance" doesn't create intimacy brother.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This seems to be a very common error in reasoning on this board. We are in no position to decide what is compatible or incompatible with a loving God. Take scripture for what it says. If you can't take scripture for what it says, then ask God to increase your faith.

Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

There is a reason this board has "berean" in the name. There is nobility to be found in questioning what someone else tells you. If your goal is the Truth, then question away......

God is not afraid of being questioned. Sometimes the answer that God gives requires a certain level of faith to understand but it always stands up to scrutiny.

 

[Grace ambassador]

This seems to be a very common error in reasoning on this board. We are in no position to decide what is compatible or incompatible with a loving God.

Amen! Excellent!!:

"For My Thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My Ways,​

Saith The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So Are My​

Ways higher than your ways, and My Thoughts than your thoughts."​

(Isaiah 55:8-9)​

​

Amen.

 

[Diserner]

Has the doctrine of everlasting torment actually brought you closer to God?

I would have to answer a very strong yes.

While we are servants, the goal isn't one of absolute authority over us. It is agreement that God seeks from us.

What?!!

All authority in heaven and earth.

Serving from a place of "compliance" doesn't create intimacy brother.

Neither does over familiarity and making God your "buddy."

 

[GeneZ]

Do you believe that in order to understand the Bible properly, it requires abdicating your reasoning mind?

Besides the trinity, the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell, is one of the biggest IDOLS keeping people from Christ. I know it was for me for decades! Consider the following 9 reasons:

1. INCOMPATIBLE WITH AN ALL-LOVING GOD

This is the big one. In the end, for most people, an all-loving God should be distinguishable from pure evil. There cannot be an idea more purely evil than to distort any notion of love or justice with ECT, eternal conscious torment.

Death is merciful & loving, not ECT.

2. OT DOESN’T TEACH ECT BUT DEATH

God told Adam that sin will result in death @ GE 2:17. If ECT is true, it means God lied.

except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.​

GE 2:17 (NLT)​

According to Peter, God does not want to prevent us from burning eternally but prevent us from death.

The Lord is not slow in fulfilling his promise, as some consider him to be slow, but he is patient toward you, not wanting anyone to be destroyed but for everyone to come to repentance.​

2 Peter 3:9​

3. JUSTICE

There is nothing equal about temporary sin resulting in eternal punishment. A human hardly lives a century. Even the most wicked life cannot be equally punished by ECT.

Some make an Appeal to Ignorance, supposing the human mind cannot understand the concepts of love and justice when preceded by the word divine.

Jesus is a man and can understand it. Jesus says many and few blows – not infinite in Luke 12:48. This suggests proportional punishment for wrongdoing, a balance justice demands, not an infinite number of blows for everyone, regardless of their sin, which is ultimately the case for ECT.

In order for ECT to be true, it means God and Jesus both lied.

4. BETTER OFF WITHOUT JESUS?

Before Jesus, the understanding from the OT was sin results in death.

Behold, they will be like stubble, the fire will burn them up. They will not deliver themselves from the power of the flame.​

IS 47:14 (REV)​

​

They will go out and look on the dead bodies of the people who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched​

IS 66:24 (REV)​

It is the worm that does not die, not us! It is the fire that is burns endlessly, not people!

Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says Lord Yahweh, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but desire that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?’​

EZ 33:11 (REV)​

​

For I have told you often, and now tell you again in tears, that many walk as enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction.​

Phil 3:18-19​

If anything Jesus said is taken to reveal ECT is true, it means most people would be better off if Jesus had not come. The Good News of Jesus Christ cannot be for most, the punishment for sin went from death to ECT!

5. 2nd DEATH:

Dead is most common way to describe unbelievers, not ECT.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have life in the age to come.​

John 3:16 (REV)​

NOTE: John 3:16 does not say God sent his son to prevent ECT. Some make another Appeal to Ignorance, that “perish” or die means something mystical or spiritual, etc. This is either adding to God’s word or extreme eisegesis.

6. DEATH IS SUBSTITUTE FOR SIN, NOT ECT

There is not a single instance where sin is paid for with ECT. Every substitute for sin in Scripture is death.

If the penalty for sin is eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the full price.

7. SATAN’S LIE, YOU WON’T NOT DIE

ECT embraces Satan’s 1st lie.

8. OUR PEACE IN PARADISE

How could we enjoy paradise knowing ECT for our loved ones? True, the Bible says tears will be wiped away not that our emotional responses will be altered in the knowledge that people we loved in life are being tormented without end.

In Scripture “forever and ever” means “until the end of the age.” It does not mean unending.

9. ETERNAL PUNISHMENT FOR DEMONS ONLY

Trinitarians go to technique to “support” their doctrine is what I call artificial synthesis, cherry picking verses and splicing them together. There is no verse that says unrepentant, evil humans are fated for ECT.

Then he will also say to the ones on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the fire in the age to come, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels.​

Mat 25:41 (REV)​

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14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:14 (ESV)​

All that didn't keep you from Christ.
Did it?

Nothing is going to cause someone who is His own to refuse to believe.

That's how secure He is in His integrity.
"Tell them about Hell."
People will still get saved.... Those who hear His voice always do.

We're not supposed to seduce them into the kingdom.

The message of ECT, eternal conscious torment is for angels ears as well.
They take great pleasure to hear how that the sadistic b*stard Satan is going to get justice he deserves.
Satan gloats on all the torment, misery, and death he causes... like with Hamas decapitating babies.
Such knowledge of the Lake of Fire gives the angels a strong upper hand when having to be around the low life fallen angels.

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It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you. These things have now been ​

announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. ​

The angels have an insatiable desire to bend over and concentrate on." 1 Peter 1:12​

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That is why we who have the gift to teach God's Word, are to teach objective truth that (when need be) shows no regard for human bias and sentiment. Angels who hear the words are not hung up like small thinking fallen men who make their feelings, not truth, their main concern.

In Christ....

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would have to answer a very strong yes.

Do you children say the same thing about you when you promise to torture them for all Eternity if they don't listen to you?

What?!!

All authority in heaven and earth.

Do you know how empty such compliance is?

Lets just walk through this.....

I warn you of damnation for not believing me.
You ask me to save you because you're scared of damnation.
The trial of your faith begins. Every person faces it. It is "no strange thing" to consider that God is validating to you what your actions actually mean.
Up till this point all you've done is "comply". Your basic answer back to God is "I did what you asked".
"I've stopped all these "bad things" I believe you don't like. Please don't punish me".......

and you actually think this pleases God?

When the willing servant was given the opportunity to go free........

He REFUSED because He actually agreed with God.... Fellowship to that servant was more than just a means of compliance. This is the danger I've warned you about most of our interaction with one another when it comes to your "Arminian" position.

You believe repentance is a changing your mind and complying with God's request. Repentance is more than this. It is where WE.... agree with one another. Not only on sin but relationship.

Neither does over familiarity and making God your "buddy.".

I've heard that false claim most of my adult life. I have never called God "buddy". However, I NEED His fellowship. I don't want to live without it. Life to me is meaningless without it.

Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: