Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you believe GOD creates evil things then we are at odds for I believe evil can only be created by the free will of a person and GOD is LIGHT which destroys dark, it does not create it.

I do share that belief, my brother.
Perhaps I am not understanding you right.
Animals cannot choose between good and evil, so they cannot be wicked.

 

[TedT]

I do share that belief, my brother.
Perhaps I am not understanding you right.
Animals cannot choose between good and evil, so they cannot be wicked.

That is only true IF animals could never choose by their free will but if they could choose and chose to be evil and then were given bodies and minds to engage in the evil they chose, where is the problem? The devil sows the evil spirits of the evil one into this world, Matt 13:39, but it doesn't really say they were all sown into the human lineage, eh?

The "every worldly spirit was created on earth" theory fails again....sigh.

 

[synergy]

We can discuss that in the thread within the forum of soteriology.
I would like my Muslim and Jewish brothers to recognize that Jesus gave his life in sacrifice in the cross.
I would like them to share the theology I embrace… But I am not a man of theology.
If they are crucifying the old man and being born to a new man, they are participating in the cross and resurrection of Christ, even if they don’t know it. What I will do is to praise God for their existence,

That is the part some Evangelicals miss from the cross and the resurrection: the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ is powerful enough to have an effect over the people despite their theological disagreements. Bahá’u’lláh says that at the time of Jesus death, “all created things” were infused with a special power of God. When He says “all created things” which includes all men.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping.
By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.”

*********

Bahá’u’lláh missed out on many things Christ and the Holy Spirit did to the natural world and to our human nature, besides creating it of course. Here are a few thoughts off the top of my head. There could be more:

1. Christ healed human nature by becoming man: This is central to Christian theology. By the Incarnation, Christ took on human nature, sanctifying it and restoring it to its intended dignity.

2. The Holy Spirit tore the sky at Christ's Baptism: The Gospel of Mark (1:10) vividly describes the heavens being "torn open" when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a dove. This act declares the breaking of barriers between heaven and earth, ushering in a new era where God's Spirit is actively working in the world, pointing to the fulfillment of God's kingdom.

3. Christ healed the natural world at His Baptism: Christ's Baptism in the Jordan is often understood as a sanctification of the waters and, by extension, the natural world. It’s through the waters, representing creation, that it was healed and made holy by his presence, preparing the waters to become the means of grace in Christian Baptism.

4. The Transfiguration of Christ's Human Body at his Transfiguration. That's the glory that awaits us and our bodies at our Resurrection.

5. Through Christ's Cross and Resurrection, he healed our brokenness caused by sin, offering humanity a path to Reconciliation with God and a share in the Divine Life.

What if this Christmas you go out to seek your Jew brother ant tell him/her:
“I just want to tell you that Jesus was born, lived and died for you even when you disagree with me or don’t understand what that means.
I want to tell you today that Jesus was raised from the dead so that you can live a new kind of life, even if you disagree with me on any thing I’m saying. I know you love Hashem ( or Allah, if a Muslim) and I want you to know He loves you back with infinite love”.

If they show interest in learning more about Jesus, tell them more about his love, his suffering, his victory… in your own terms, humbly, not from a position of exegetical superiority (as sometimes I do, in my stupidity).
If they don’t show any interest, bless them all the same.
Forgiveness and regeneration is not your responsibility. It is God’s. Trust Him. He will do what He knows is best for each of his children.

Sounds good.

 

[Studyman]

That is only true IF animals could never choose by their free will but if they could choose and chose to be evil and then were given bodies and minds to engage in the evil they chose, where is the problem? The devil sows the evil spirits of the evil one into this world, Matt 13:39, but it doesn't really say they were all sown into the human lineage, eh?

The "every worldly spirit was created on earth" theory fails again....sigh.

Perhaps you might consider what God did actually say, and then base your knowledge of God's creation based on HIS Word and not your own musings.

Gen. 1: 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Clearly there is a distinct difference between God's Creation of animals, and God's creation of "MAN" that was to have dominion over the animals.

It seems prudent to point these Biblical Truths out, when discussing God's Creation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is only true IF animals could never choose by their free will but if they could choose and chose to be evil and then were given bodies and minds to engage in the evil they chose, where is the problem? The devil sows the evil spirits of the evil one into this world, Matt 13:39, but it doesn't really say they were all sown into the human lineage, eh?

The "every worldly spirit was created on earth" theory fails again....sigh.

I don’t understand your explanation, TedT. My apologies. Could you please elaborate further ?

 

[TedT]

I don’t understand your explanation, TedT. My apologies. Could you please elaborate further ?

GOD cannot create evil by any means except by giving HS creation a free will and then they chose to be evil, as you intimated. GOD cannot go or create against HIMself or HIS reason for our creation to be HIS heavenly Bride. Therefore HIS creation was perfectly good and perfectly able to become HIS Bride until the fall when some chose to reject HIS proposal of marriage and repudiated HIM as a false god.

So what came first - the animal or the evil in the animal? They (some) are specifically said to be evil so this proves to those who believe what is written that they must have chosen to be evil at some time...a time before they were sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

GOD cannot create evil by any means except by giving HS creation a free will and then they chose to be evil, as you intimated. GOD cannot go or create against HIMself or HIS reason for our creation to be HIS heavenly Bride. Therefore HIS creation was perfectly good and perfectly able to become HIS Bride until the fall when some chose to reject HIS proposal of marriage and repudiated HIM as a false god.

So what came first - the animal or the evil in the animal? They (some) are specifically said to be evil so this proves to those who believe what is written that they must have chosen to be evil at some time...a time before they were sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39.

Thank you very much for the clarification, TedT.

 

[synergy]

GOD cannot create evil by any means except by giving HS creation a free will and then they chose to be evil, as you intimated. GOD cannot go or create against HIMself or HIS reason for our creation to be HIS heavenly Bride. Therefore HIS creation was perfectly good and perfectly able to become HIS Bride until the fall when some chose to reject HIS proposal of marriage and repudiated HIM as a false god.

So what came first - the animal or the evil in the animal? They (some) are specifically said to be evil so this proves to those who believe what is written that they must have chosen to be evil at some time...a time before they were sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39.

Evil did enter the world way before man was created. Satan and his minions were banished to the Earth when they rebelled against God. Now I don't know if there's a connection with that and the animal kingdom.

 

[Dizerner]

Satan and his minions were banished to the Earth when they rebelled against God.

I'm wondering where you got this idea, just curious.

It seems to me they most likely rebelled before the earth even existed.

 

[synergy]

I'm wondering where you got this idea, just curious.

It seems to me they most likely rebelled before the earth even existed.

Either way, the important thing is that they were banished to Earth way before man was created and that sinful influence could have easily caused an anomaly to the animal kingdom. Notice that satan appeared in the Garden as a snake in its pre-slithering state. Did he possess that snake? There's a strong indication that he did.

 

[Dizerner]

Either way, the important thing is that they were banished to Earth way before man was created and that sinful influence could have easily caused an anomaly to the animal kingdom. Notice that satan appeared in the Garden as a snake in its pre-slithering state. Did he possess that snake? There's a strong indication that he did.

Wouldn't Satan have been the first evil spirit to enter?

It wasn't a random coincidence they bumped into each other.

 

[synergy]

Wouldn't Satan have been the first evil spirit to enter?

Enter the Garden? I guess. There's no record of any other demon entering the Garden. It looks like satan took it upon himself to cause the Fall. I don't think he trusted any of his comrades to accompany him because they could easily have botched it all up. Especially, if it looked like they were ganging up on Eve.

It wasn't a random coincidence they bumped into each other.

I totally agree that it was not a random coincidence that Eve bumped into the snake. Satan had his eye out to get to Adam through Eve. I wonder if any other animals were possessed by satan's minions, outside of the Garden at least?

 

[TedT]

Evil did enter the world way before man was created.

Exactly.

But we still must account for the fact that some angels were seduced into sin and then were flung to the earth just before Satan's war with GOD, Rev 12:4-9. Why fling them away when he needed them the most? Maybe because they would not fight for him against their chosen GOD?

Does not their being sinners but without hating GOD enough to war against HIM also describe the sinful elect destined to salvation by faith, the sinful believers of John 3:18, ie, the never condemned, as opposed to the never believers condemned already in Satan's demonic army?

Wouldn't Satan have been the first evil spirit to enter?

This does seem to interfere with the fact that Adam was the first to bring sin into the world...unless Adam was an already fallen spirit (though elect) when he was sown into his new body of dust in the garden and not newly created as innocent and pure from sin when he was sown, not created into this word, Matt 13:36-39. He would have been one of the stars Satan flung to the earth before he was flung down himself with the demonic reprobate, Rev 12:4-9. As the first person to be sown into this world bringing his sin with him, he was the first sinner in the world though the third to sin in the garden itself.

It wasn't a random coincidence they bumped into each other.

...BUT if Eve was just newly created and without any sinfulness, why did GOD not warn her of the evil intent of the serpent when he sought her out? HE did not even warn her the serpent was her worst enemy! This is not the way of a loving father. HE could have completely changed the tenor of all creation with one simple warning !! but HE withheld that warning because - why? BUT...
but IF she was a star flung to the earth for already befriending the epitome of evil pre-earth, and if having her meet him again in the garden was GOD's plan to have her eyes opened to Satan's perfidy as her worst enemy, not a friend at all, because she was sinfully resisting HIM about that, then HIS plan worked perfectly!

 

[Behold]

Dear readers

In this thread I intend to defend the thesis that our physical bodies decay and die not because the sin of Adam and Eve,

Nonsense.

Just read this verse and then find something better to do @Pancho Frijoles
--

Though your body is subject to death BECAUSE OF SIN, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. New Living Translation And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. English Standard Version But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead BECAUSE OF SIN, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Berean Standard Bible But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Berean Literal Bible But if Christ is in you, the body is indeed dead on ACCOUNT OF SIN, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. King James Bible And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. New King James Version And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. New American Standard Bible If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. NASB 1995 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead BECAUSE OF SIN, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. NASB 1977 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Legacy Standard Bible But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Amplified Bible If Christ lives in you, though your [natural] body is dead because of sin, your spirit is alive because of righteousness [which He provides]. Christian Standard Bible Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. Holman Christian Standard Bible Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. American Standard Version And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. Contemporary English Version But Christ lives in you. So you are alive because God has accepted you, even though your bodies must die BECAUSE OF SINS. English Revised Version

 

[TedT]

Though your body is subject to death BECAUSE OF SIN, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

ImCo,
this should be interpreted as because of THEIR own sin without reference to Adam and Eve.

GOD is light. Light cannot create darkness.
GOD is love. Love cannot create evil.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit, Matthew 7:18. A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water, James 3:11. NO ONE inherited any sin, sin nature, evil propensity or liability for sinfulness from Adam!!!

 

[Dizerner]

We should face the death of our bodies with peace, joy and gratitude to God, who gave it to us as a temporary gift.

Might I point out this is true for both views here, it is not somehow changed because we are under a curse and moving on to a better life. Knowing we are redeemed and passing on to a better place gives us much more joy and gratitude than if we just fed some worms and became mulch.

Paul's reference to Adam and Christ as persons who introduced death and life (correspondingly) should also be understood spiritually, as salvation is about passing from spiritual death to the life of the spirit, and not about the eternal preservation of our bones or kidneys.

Well, amen. This is true in both views. Physical death was never the "only" death in Scripture, that's never been the case. It's the "lesser" death, the merely "symbolic" death of something so much worse and more terrible, our spiritual death because of sin.

Biological death, just as metabolism or reproduction, is inherent to biological life. It does not imply destruction of matter or energy, but rearrangement, reuse, within the big picture of life in the planet.

Yes, indeed, from a naturalistic perspective where humankind is nothing more than some meat on a bag of bones, from dust we return, and to dust we shall go. But we know we are made in the image of God, and we know that when our body decomposes something has gone, something is missing, our real self is no longer there, the body was just a temporary housing, a tent in a strange land.

Now we need to see that even though the human body's decomposition can help some worms and grass, this is not to prove or imply that this an ideal picture. We all desire institutionally to experience life, to enjoy life, to really find some experience of happiness, and that dying, if that were all there was to it, is a bad thing because it ends all our hopes for anything better. And we recognize that if we put a precious work of art in the ground, it may decompose and help out some worms and grass, but that precious work of art was meant for better things, and expresses something far higher in worth and dignity than becoming worm food. We recognize that marring a work of art, watching it fade away, is an inherently negative and improper thing, because we see that death is an expression of loss and a destructive perversion of the idea.

Death, indeed, is the wages of sin, both physical death, and spiritual death—that far greater judgment for all our sins in God's eternal wrath.

 

[synergy]

Exactly.

But we still must account for the fact that some angels were seduced into sin and then were flung to the earth just before Satan's war with GOD, Rev 12:4-9. Why fling them away when he needed them the most? Maybe because they would not fight for him against their chosen GOD?

Does not their being sinners but without hating GOD enough to war against HIM also describe the sinful elect destined to salvation by faith, the sinful believers of John 3:18, ie, the never condemned, as opposed to the never believers condemned already in Satan's demonic army?

The visions and images of Revelation are not always recorded in chronological order. Rev 12:7 of the Heavenly war did not necessarily happen after Christ was born in verse 5. Because of that I don't agree with your speculation that Adam was a fallen spirit or that Eve was one also.

BTW, I'll just say that Mormons believe that all humans were preexisting spirits which I don't think you are one.

This does seem to interfere with the fact that Adam was the first to bring sin into the world...unless Adam was an already fallen spirit (though elect) when he was sown into his new body of dust in the garden and not newly created as innocent and pure from sin when he was sown, not created into this word, Matt 13:36-39. He would have been one of the stars Satan flung to the earth before he was flung down himself with the demonic reprobate, Rev 12:4-9. As the first person to be sown into this world bringing his sin with him, he was the first sinner in the world though the third to sin in the garden itself.


...BUT if Eve was just newly created and without any sinfulness, why did GOD not warn her of the evil intent of the serpent when he sought her out? HE did not even warn her the serpent was her worst enemy! This is not the way of a loving father. HE could have completely changed the tenor of all creation with one simple warning !! but HE withheld that warning because - why? BUT...
but IF she was a star flung to the earth for already befriending the epitome of evil pre-earth, and if having her meet him again in the garden was GOD's plan to have her eyes opened to Satan's perfidy as her worst enemy, not a friend at all, because she was sinfully resisting HIM about that, then HIS plan worked perfectly!

 

[TedT]

BTW, I'll just say that Mormons believe that all humans were preexisting spirits which I don't think you are one.

Thank you. So many who dislike PCE dump Mormonism on me to give me a stench, sigh. It's too funny because I was cursed by three so called Mormon elders for following an evil spirit.

I don't claim to have the only truth nor is pce necessary for salvation but it certainly provided me with a focus I could wholeheartedly trust...People who say that they see how my interpretations of scripture can indeed support our pre-conception existence but they just don't accept it as proper are very acceptable to me.

 

[synergy]

Thank you. So many who dislike PCE dump Mormonism on me to give me a stench, sigh. It's too funny because I was cursed by three so called Mormon elders for following an evil spirit.

I don't claim to have the only truth nor is pce necessary for salvation but it certainly provided me with a focus I could wholeheartedly trust...People who say that they see how my interpretations of scripture can indeed support our pre-conception existence but they just don't accept it as proper are very acceptable to me.

Origen was one of the first people within Christianity to believe and the promote preexistence of souls, not spirits. He introduced the concept of reincarnation or reembodiment. His unique interpretation of reincarnation and the pre-existence of souls was controversial and was heavily dependent on Platonism. His teaching were unceremoniously condemned by subsequent Church Councils.

 

[TedT]

Origen was one of the first people within Christianity to believe and the promote preexistence of souls, not spirits. He introduced the concept of reincarnation or reembodiment. His unique interpretation of reincarnation and the pre-existence of souls was controversial and was heavily dependent on Platonism. His teaching were unceremoniously condemned by subsequent Church Councils.

Yeah, his Christology was even worse!

But are you a Catholic that deems the Fathers to be as perfect as the bible or are you a Protestant who follows the Spirit?

Origen was one of the first people within Christianity to believe and the promote preexistence of souls, not spirits.

Perhaps we should say, one of the first theologians to believe and the promote pre-existence of souls, eh? Also, since nothing can pre-exist its existence, the use of preexistence for a life previous to our earthly life or to a pre-conception existence is moot.

As for souls, not spirits, I consider these to be much the same thing except a soul is (probably) a spirit held in a body ...