Salvation is for humans, not trilobites.
Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I fully agree with you.
I am asking the question for @civic, as he might think that believing that trilobites died before Adam’s Fall is an attack against the foundations of the message of the cross.
civic
Well-known member
no animals/humans died before adams sin.
death is a result of sin- this means no animals or humans died before sin. Bible 101.
civic
Well-known member
no their fossils like every other fossil record is a result of Noahs flood.
next fallacy
civic
Well-known member
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
That was not my question. My question is relevant because you declared:
Is @synergy destroying the foundations of the message of the cross by admitting that trilobites could have gone extinct before Adam?
That shows you just how much human fell when God decreed that humans will henceforth experience the separation of body and soul because of Adam's sin (Gen 3:19).
civic
Well-known member
I'm not going to play your game by causing discord with synergy and I.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I will honor the time you spent in gathering your videos and links…. I will honor that by watching and reading
I just want to know if you have some background on science or scientific method, so that I know we are speaking the same language.
civic
Well-known member
I understand the scientific methods used for dating but I’m not a science scholar nor do I have any degree in that field.
Do you have any biblical degrees ?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It is not a game. This is serious.
Take responsibility for your posts.
It is your view who is causing discord with any Christian who accepts that the earth has existed for millions of years.
You also sated that the Christian pastors who have signed the letter in favor of that had betrayed the faith.
To me, whether you deny or accept the extinction of trilobites before man is irrelevant for your salvation.
I know you will be in paradise. I know you have crucified the old man and resurrected with Christ.
I am including you, but you are excluding me and @synergy.
Please reflect on that. If you need to retract from what you posted, please do it. We all make mistakes.
civic
Well-known member
No you are jumping to conclusions and I never said it was salvific so don’t put words in my mouth .
Also I was quoting a source
We're losing focus on what's really at issue here: the Cross. Because of the Cross everyone will be resurrected before the Great White Throne where we will all be judged. So whether you like it or not, you will see your kidneys and toes again in some form or another.
civic
Well-known member
Yes along with a face, eyes, ears, mouth , tongue , nose, skin, bones, flesh etc
101G
Well-known member
Greeting my brother.
may 101G ask a LITERAL question... "WHO MADE ALL THINGS?". supportive scripture, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
without any argument, is this the same one person in both scriptures that "MADE ALL THINGS", YES or NO? please note, in Isaiah 44:24, the LORD was "ALONE" and "BY" himself when he MADE ALL THING.
your answer please.... a YES or NO will do. thanks in advance.
101G
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
This thread is about biological death as the result of Adam’s sin.
Indeed, the message of the cross should not be at stake.
Christians of all denominations should not feel their faith threatened by the perspective of physical death as part of God’s design of lifecycles.
Why? Because the important thing is the salvation of our souls. If in addition God gives us physical immortal bodies as a bonus, great, praise be to Him!
If you, Christian brothers and sisters, have that hope, please keep it and enjoy it !
Just don’t put as ANOTHER condition for salvation to stick to a literal interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis!
This brings us straight back to the Cross. That is the condition for our salvation, spiritually and physically. Allah can forgive all he wants but without the Cross he is no better than a demon, which by the way he is.
Also, Genesis aligns perfectly with science so that any attack on it as being just a pagan myth is a direct attack on the purpose of the Cross and on the Cross itself which is our only path to salvation
I believe this story is a Parable with Spiritual meaning, and I don't believe that God created herbivore snakes that can talk to humans and only eat dust. Just as I don't believe I am required by God to find the Literal Flesh and Blood of the Ascended Christ and eat and drink it, before I can be accepted by God.
Can you provide me with any evidence that snakes can only eat dust, or show me the Flesh and Blood of the Christ you profess to have eaten? And if not, then why can't you consider the possibility that this story was a Parable with Spiritual meaning that had nothing to do with literal snakes and animals at all?
In this Parable, man was to have dominance over the animals and subdue them. If the man having dominion over them was a sinful, greedy, careless sinner, would they not be cursed, but less that the teacher of this behavior? What if this Parable wasn't about "animals" at all, but the wicked influence of sin on all of God's creation? I believe the Parable was about our thoughts which direct our deeds. Both clean and righteous and unclean and unrighteous, and the righteousness of having free will and choosing the good over the evil, as defined by God.
After all, it is written in our Bible;
Ps. 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this choice Jesus made) God, "thy God", hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Where is it written that God brought the flood because of the violent nature of animals HE made violent. At Noah's time, could a Lion choose to be harmless? Was it the same for men?
Gen. 6: 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And even if your philosophy is true, then why did God save the animals in the Ark, along with Noah.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man (Like Abel, yes?) and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
If the religious philosophy you have adopted is true, then why did God save all these violent, sinful animals along with a righteous, obedient and humble servant Noah to preserve their lives?
I respectfully disagree with this popular religious philosophy of this world you have adopted. An animal has no choice in its behavior. A lion is a lion, a goat is a goat. One is violent by nature, one is not. But men have a different spirit. A spirit in which we can "Choose" to rule over violence and sin, or choose not to rule over violence and sin.
There are "other voices" in the Garden God placed us in, that quote some of God's Word, that "Profess to know God", that would deceive us into believing a lie, if we listen to them, just as it deceived Eve.
The imagination of the hearts of men, is what the Parable is about, in my view. Not dust eating snakes.
Gen 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all living creatures has come before Me, because through them the earth is full of violence. Now behold, I will destroy both them and the earth.
Animals were considered by GOD to be wicked and cursed along with men. Some people were chosen to survive and some animals were chosen to survive.
If you believe GOD creates evil things then we are at odds for I believe evil can only be created by the free will of a person and GOD is LIGHT which destroys dark, it does not create it.
Just another case of GOD not being able to tell the story properly eh? I don't think so.
Just an
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
We can discuss that in the thread within the forum of soteriology.
I would like my Muslim and Jewish brothers to recognize that Jesus gave his life in sacrifice in the cross.
I would like them to share the theology I embrace… But I am not a man of theology.
If they are crucifying the old man and being born to a new man, they are participating in the cross and resurrection of Christ, even if they don’t know it. What I will do is to praise God for their existence,
That is the part some Evangelicals miss from the cross and the resurrection: the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ is powerful enough to have an effect over the people despite their theological disagreements. Bahá’u’lláh says that at the time of Jesus death, “all created things” were infused with a special power of God. When He says “all created things” which includes all men.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping.
By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.”
*********
What if this Christmas you go out to seek your Jew brother ant tell him/her:
“I just want to tell you that Jesus was born, lived and died for you even when you disagree with me or don’t understand what that means.
I want to tell you today that Jesus was raised from the dead so that you can live a new kind of life, even if you disagree with me on any thing I’m saying. I know you love Hashem ( or Allah, if a Muslim) and I want you to know He loves you back with infinite love”.
If they show interest in learning more about Jesus, tell them more about his love, his suffering, his victory… in your own terms, humbly, not from a position of exegetical superiority (as sometimes I do, in my stupidity).
If they don’t show any interest, bless them all the same.
Forgiveness and regeneration is not your responsibility. It is God’s. Trust Him. He will do what He knows is best for each of his children.
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