Did Jesus Break the Mosaic Law ?

[Soyeong]

This is a the continuation of a conversation in another thread, though others are welcome to join. This was @dwight92070's post:

"Jesus touched dead bodies several times, in violation of the law. Sure He was raising the dead, but He had to touch the dead body first, in order to raise it, which is a violation of the law. When the Pharisees accused His disciples of breaking the Sabbath by picking heads of grain, Jesus DID NOT claim that they were not violating the Sabbath. Instead He referred them to the incident with David, when he and his men were hungry, and the priest gave them the showbread, which Jesus admitted was NOT LAWFUL. So He was acknowledging that what His disciples were doing was unlawful on the Sabbath. So what was Jesus' justification for them doing that? "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Just like a police officer can violate the speed limit laws because of who he is, without being accused of breaking the law, so Jesus had the authority and right to break the Sabbath if He wanted to, or to allow His disciples to break the Sabbath, because He was the Lord.

So could He also break the law that says, "Do not commit adultery."? Or "Do not steal."? Of course not, because that would violate His own moral character. These laws are moral laws and Jesus never violated them. Now you see why, whether you like it or not, the laws naturally fall into different categories: Moral, ceremonial, and civil. A moral law is a law, if broken, that would violate the character of God. These laws were retained in the New Testament, from the Old. Every other law is to be considered obsolete -Hebrews 8:13

Jesus told the man on the pallet to "Get up, pick up your pallet, and go home." on the Sabbath. He was commanding the man to break the Sabbath, which essentially means He Himself was breaking it - again, without sin.

Paul was vehemently against the Gentile believers getting circumcised, in order to keep the law. The whole book of Galatians informs us that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. Paul said we are under the law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses. "He abolished in His flesh the enmity , which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Ephesians 2:15

You said that He did not command anything other than the Mosaic law. You are greatly mistaken. What commandment of Moses tells us to pray secretly - or even to just pray? Or to give secretly to charity? Or to forgive 70 X 7? Or to lay up treasures in heaven? Or to love your enemies? Or to go the 2nd mile, if forced to go one mile? Or to abide in Him? Or to not use an oath? Or to not lust? Or to first be reconciled to your brother, then bring your gift to God? Or to let your light shine? Or to not cast your pearls before swine? Or to choose the narrow path? Or to deny yourself? Or to be born again? Or to give to Caesar what is Caesar's? Or to go into all the world and preach the gospel (not the law of Moses) etc., etc. The list goes on and on.
No, He commanded His apostles to go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything that He commanded them, NOT the Law and NOT the Ten Commandments.

Do you believe that every firstborn male must be circumcised, as the Law requires? Do you make 3 trips a year to Jerusalem, as the Law requires? Do you believe that the dietary laws of Moses must be obeyed, as the Law requires? Do you wear clothing that has two or more different kinds of material? You might answer: Yes, I wear it, but I didn't make it. Well, even if you just buy and wear that type of clothing, then you are encouraging other people to violate the Law of Moses. If you have a daughter and she commits adultery, would you believe that she deserves the death penalty? If you have a married brother who dies without children, would you feel it is your obligation, as the law commands, to marry his widow, as the law requires? The Law allowed slaves, so would you consider "owning" a slave and abiding by all the laws about slaves? The Law allowed you, if you're married, to divorce your wife for reasons other than immorality, whereas Jesus said that was the ONLY exception, so would you obey the Law or Jesus, if you wanted a divorce? If you're going to live by the Law of Moses, you can't pick and choose which law you're going to obey and which one you're not.

Do you see how foolish it is to think that we are still commanded to keep the Law of Moses? The Law of Moses was given ONLY to the nation of Israel, when they came out of Egypt, NEVER to any other nation or people, and it was done away with when Jesus died on the cross.

By the way, we are expected not only to obey all of Jesus' commands, but every command given in the New Testament, written by His apostles. I have heard that the New Testament contains over 1000 commands, even more than Moses required."

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus touched dead bodies several times, in violation of the law. Sure He was raising the dead, but He had to touch the dead body first, in order to raise it, which is a violation of the law. When the Pharisees accused His disciples of breaking the Sabbath by picking heads of grain, Jesus DID NOT claim that they were not violating the Sabbath. Instead He referred them to the incident with David, when he and his men were hungry, and the priest gave them the showbread, which Jesus admitted was NOT LAWFUL. So He was acknowledging that what His disciples were doing was unlawful on the Sabbath. So what was Jesus' justification for them doing that? "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Just like a police officer can violate the speed limit laws because of who he is, without being accused of breaking the law, so Jesus had the authority and right to break the Sabbath if He wanted to, or to allow His disciples to break the Sabbath, because He was the Lord.

All sin causes us to become ritually unclean, but it is not a sin itself to become unclean. So Jesus was not sinning in violation of the law when he became he healed a dead person, a person with tzaraat, or the woman suffering from bleeding, but rather according to the law that would have just caused him to become unclean, which meant that he would need to become ritually clean before he could enter the temple again.

There are a number of instances where some of God's laws appears to conflict with each other, such as with God command priests to rest on the Sabbath while also commanding priests to make offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that priests were forced to sin by violating one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater commandment from being obeyed, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David an his men were held innocent, and why he defended his disciples as being innocent. If Jesus had wanted to debate matters of halakhah, then he could have quoted Rabbi Yehuda as saying that we are permitted to crush grains of wheat for our own consumption on the Sabbath as long as we don't use a tool, so he was not making special exemption for his disciples to break the Sabbath. If Jesus was free to break the Sabbath, then he would not have been Lord of the Sabbath, but rather keeping the Sabbath is the way to testify about the truth that he is Lord of the Sabbath.

So could He also break the law that says, "Do not commit adultery."? Or "Do not steal."? Of course not, because that would violate His own moral character. These laws are moral laws and Jesus never violated them. Now you see why, whether you like it or not, the laws naturally fall into different categories: Moral, ceremonial, and civil. A moral law is a law, if broken, that would violate the character of God. These laws were retained in the New Testament, from the Old. Every other law is to be considered obsolete -Hebrews 8:13

Likewise breaking the Sabbath would have violated Christ's moral character, which is why he did not do that. The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of His character. For example, by doing good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's eternal goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), which is the way to know, love, worship, and believe in God's goodness. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so by following those instructions we are testifying about God's eternal holiness, which is part of God's eternal character.

All of God's laws were given to teach us how to testify about different aspects of His character and morality is base on God's character, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Likewise, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. The existence of the category of moral laws implies that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that are not in that category, however, there is no example in the Bible where disobedience to God is considered to be moral, the Bible does not give any sort of standard to distinguish between which of God's laws are moral to disobey, and I do not see any reason to think that is can ever be moral to disobey God. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for you to suggest that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to suggest that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws, and therefore for you to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

The Bible never lists which laws are moral, civil, or ceremonial, it never gives any standard to determine which laws fit into those categories, and it never even refers to those as being categories of law. If a group of people were asked to create lists of which laws they thought were moral, civil, and ceremonial, then we would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list that they had just created. For example, some people consider just the Ten Commandments to be the moral law while others consider laws against rape, kidnapping, and favoritism to also be moral laws, or some consider the Sabbath to be a moral law while others consider it to be a ceremonial law, but it is all a matter of opinion and not base on what is directly stated in the Bible.

I could categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as the law against theft being a hand law, but just because I can do that does not establish that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in the same manner, and if I were to try to insert a category of law that I had created back into the Bible without establishing that, such as by interpreting Hebrews 8:13 as saying that hand laws are obsolete, then I would be making the same sort of error that you are making. Hebrews 8:10-13 says nothing to specify that certain categories of law.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus told the man on the pallet to "Get up, pick up your pallet, and go home." on the Sabbath. He was commanding the man to break the Sabbath, which essentially means He Himself was breaking it - again, without sin.

Which again was never sinful.

Paul was vehemently against the Gentile believers getting circumcised, in order to keep the law. The whole book of Galatians informs us that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. Paul said we are under the law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses. "He abolished in His flesh the enmity , which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Ephesians 2:15

Paul opposed becoming circumcised for incorrect reasons, but he was a servant of God, so he never opposed obeying what God has commanded. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and Galatians should not be interpreted as Paul speaking against following Christ, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey works of the law in order to become justified. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. In Ephesians 2:15, it is referring to a law that is not eternal, however, all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), therefore it is not referring to any of God's laws, and the Bible never uses to the Greek word "dogma" to refer to God's laws.

You said that He did not command anything other than the Mosaic law. You are greatly mistaken. What commandment of Moses tells us to pray secretly - or even to just pray? Or to give secretly to charity? Or to forgive 70 X 7? Or to lay up treasures in heaven? Or to love your enemies? Or to go the 2nd mile, if forced to go one mile? Or to abide in Him? Or to not use an oath? Or to not lust? Or to first be reconciled to your brother, then bring your gift to God? Or to let your light shine? Or to not cast your pearls before swine? Or to choose the narrow path? Or to deny yourself? Or to be born again? Or to give to Caesar what is Caesar's? Or to go into all the world and preach the gospel (not the law of Moses) etc., etc. The list goes on and on.
No, He commanded His apostles to go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything that He commanded them, NOT the Law and NOT the Ten Commandments.

Prayer is in accordance with the OT, not something other than it. The Mosaic Law is instructs to have charity, so teaching about how to give to charity is not something other than it. Forgiving 77 times is the way to counter Lamech escalating revenge (Genesis 4:24). Jesus did not invent rewards. Loving our enemies is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22. Not repaying in kind is in accordance with Proverbs 20:22 and Proverb 24:29. In Leviticus 19:12, it instructs not to swear falsely in God's name, so Jesus was addressing those who were dishonestly swearing falsely by something other than God's name. in order to give weight to what they were saying while giving themselves room to back out. If we correctly understand what is being commanded against by the 7th and 10th Commandments against committing adultery and coveting in our hearts, then we will understand that lusting after a woman in our hearts is violating both commands. Getting right with our brother before giving offerings to God is in accordance with passages like Isaiah 1:11-20. Doing good works in accordance with the Mosaic Law. Walking in God's way in accordance with verses like Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, Psalms 119:1-3, and so forth. In Galatian 3:8, the Gospel was made known in advance to Abraham in accord with the promise, which is in accordance with the Law of Moses. The list goes on and on and all of it is in accordance with what was taught ion the OT. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not do that, but rather there has never been another person whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT. The sum of what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example was how to correctly obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what he commission his disciples to teach.

Do you believe that every firstborn male must be circumcised, as the Law requires? Do you make 3 trips a year to Jerusalem, as the Law requires? Do you believe that the dietary laws of Moses must be obeyed, as the Law requires? Do you wear clothing that has two or more different kinds of material? You might answer: Yes, I wear it, but I didn't make it. Well, even if you just buy and wear that type of clothing, then you are encouraging other people to violate the Law of Moses. If you have a daughter and she commits adultery, would you believe that she deserves the death penalty? If you have a married brother who dies without children, would you feel it is your obligation, as the law commands, to marry his widow, as the law requires? The Law allowed slaves, so would you consider "owning" a slave and abiding by all the laws about slaves? The Law allowed you, if you're married, to divorce your wife for reasons other than immorality, whereas Jesus said that was the ONLY exception, so would you obey the Law or Jesus, if you wanted a divorce? If you're going to live by the Law of Moses, you can't pick and choose which law you're going to obey and which one you're not.

I think that followers of God ought to follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. The issue of how good of a job I am personally doing of obeying it is an independent issue, so even if I were doing an absolutely miserable job of obeying it, it wouldn't change the fact that followers of God ought to follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

Do you see how foolish it is to think that we are still commanded to keep the Law of Moses? The Law of Moses was given ONLY to the nation of Israel, when they came out of Egypt, NEVER to any other nation or people, and it was done away with when Jesus died on the cross.

Nope, but rather it would be foolish not to trust in the wisdom of God revealed through the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was indeed given to Israel and Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessed to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey it in accordance with spreading the Gospel. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of Moses, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from would be the way to react what he accomplished.

By the way, we are expected not only to obey all of Jesus' commands, but every command given in the New Testament, written by His apostles. I have heard that the New Testament contains over 1000 commands, even more than Moses required.

Indeed, I've seen it count at 1,050 instructions in the NT, which are all in accordance with what was instructed in the OT.

It remains the case that it is by the Mosaic Law that we know what sin is, so to suggest that Jesus did not follow the Mosaic Law is to suggest that he sinned and to deny that he is our Savior.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is a the continuation of a conversation in another thread, though others are welcome to join. This was @dwight92070's post:

"Jesus touched dead bodies several times, in violation of the law. Sure He was raising the dead, but He had to touch the dead body first, in order to raise it, which is a violation of the law. When the Pharisees accused His disciples of breaking the Sabbath by picking heads of grain, Jesus DID NOT claim that they were not violating the Sabbath. Instead He referred them to the incident with David, when he and his men were hungry, and the priest gave them the showbread, which Jesus admitted was NOT LAWFUL. So He was acknowledging that what His disciples were doing was unlawful on the Sabbath. So what was Jesus' justification for them doing that? "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Just like a police officer can violate the speed limit laws because of who he is, without being accused of breaking the law, so Jesus had the authority and right to break the Sabbath if He wanted to, or to allow His disciples to break the Sabbath, because He was the Lord.

So could He also break the law that says, "Do not commit adultery."? Or "Do not steal."? Of course not, because that would violate His own moral character. These laws are moral laws and Jesus never violated them. Now you see why, whether you like it or not, the laws naturally fall into different categories: Moral, ceremonial, and civil. A moral law is a law, if broken, that would violate the character of God. These laws were retained in the New Testament, from the Old. Every other law is to be considered obsolete -Hebrews 8:13

Jesus told the man on the pallet to "Get up, pick up your pallet, and go home." on the Sabbath. He was commanding the man to break the Sabbath, which essentially means He Himself was breaking it - again, without sin.

Paul was vehemently against the Gentile believers getting circumcised, in order to keep the law. The whole book of Galatians informs us that we are no longer under the Mosaic law. Paul said we are under the law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses. "He abolished in His flesh the enmity , which is the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Ephesians 2:15

You said that He did not command anything other than the Mosaic law. You are greatly mistaken. What commandment of Moses tells us to pray secretly - or even to just pray? Or to give secretly to charity? Or to forgive 70 X 7? Or to lay up treasures in heaven? Or to love your enemies? Or to go the 2nd mile, if forced to go one mile? Or to abide in Him? Or to not use an oath? Or to not lust? Or to first be reconciled to your brother, then bring your gift to God? Or to let your light shine? Or to not cast your pearls before swine? Or to choose the narrow path? Or to deny yourself? Or to be born again? Or to give to Caesar what is Caesar's? Or to go into all the world and preach the gospel (not the law of Moses) etc., etc. The list goes on and on.
No, He commanded His apostles to go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything that He commanded them, NOT the Law and NOT the Ten Commandments.

Do you believe that every firstborn male must be circumcised, as the Law requires? Do you make 3 trips a year to Jerusalem, as the Law requires? Do you believe that the dietary laws of Moses must be obeyed, as the Law requires? Do you wear clothing that has two or more different kinds of material? You might answer: Yes, I wear it, but I didn't make it. Well, even if you just buy and wear that type of clothing, then you are encouraging other people to violate the Law of Moses. If you have a daughter and she commits adultery, would you believe that she deserves the death penalty? If you have a married brother who dies without children, would you feel it is your obligation, as the law commands, to marry his widow, as the law requires? The Law allowed slaves, so would you consider "owning" a slave and abiding by all the laws about slaves? The Law allowed you, if you're married, to divorce your wife for reasons other than immorality, whereas Jesus said that was the ONLY exception, so would you obey the Law or Jesus, if you wanted a divorce? If you're going to live by the Law of Moses, you can't pick and choose which law you're going to obey and which one you're not.

Do you see how foolish it is to think that we are still commanded to keep the Law of Moses? The Law of Moses was given ONLY to the nation of Israel, when they came out of Egypt, NEVER to any other nation or people, and it was done away with when Jesus died on the cross.

By the way, we are expected not only to obey all of Jesus' commands, but every command given in the New Testament, written by His apostles. I have heard that the New Testament contains over 1000 commands, even more than Moses required."

The first thing to realize that should help your understanding is that Gentiles were never under the Law. There is no requirement for them to obey the Law.
Second, the Law of God is type and shadow of the Person of the Holy Spirit. It is HE that God promised to put in our inward parts but when I say "we" I mean as part of the covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic) God made with Abraham and the children of Israel His Law, that is, the Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of putting His Law in [their] inward parts. This is the New Covenant God made with the house of Israel of twelve tribes.
Since God made no covenant with Gentiles, God is merely saving Gentiles and bringing them "in" without covenant. You cannot miss to whom God made this New Covenant which is the house of Israel (Jer. 31.)
But the fact remains, Gentiles in this era called the Times of the Gentiles, Gentiles are becoming saved.
So how does this work so that we may understand?

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

So, if God made no covenant with Gentiles and Gentiles are becoming saved, from where do they get the command to "not have other gods before [me]" from? It is from within when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them. It is through His Presence that He brings the "Law" to us and addresses our consciences.

 

[dwight92070]

The first thing to realize that should help your understanding is that Gentiles were never under the Law. There is no requirement for them to obey the Law.
Second, the Law of God is type and shadow of the Person of the Holy Spirit. It is HE that God promised to put in our inward parts but when I say "we" I mean as part of the covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic) God made with Abraham and the children of Israel His Law, that is, the Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of putting His Law in [their] inward parts. This is the New Covenant God made with the house of Israel of twelve tribes.
Since God made no covenant with Gentiles, God is merely saving Gentiles and bringing them "in" without covenant. You cannot miss to whom God made this New Covenant which is the house of Israel (Jer. 31.)
But the fact remains, Gentiles in this era called the Times of the Gentiles, Gentiles are becoming saved.
So how does this work so that we may understand?

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

So, if God made no covenant with Gentiles and Gentiles are becoming saved, from where do they get the command to "not have other gods before [me]" from? It is from within when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them. It is through His Presence that He brings the "Law" to us and addresses our consciences.

God did make a New Covenant. Jesus said, on the night before His crucifixion: "This is the New Covenant in My blood." Yes, it was given originally to Israel, but the Gentiles were welcomed into it later, when God spoke to Peter in a vision in Acts 10. We, as Gentile believers have been grafted into the olive tree of God's kingdom, the church whose Head is Christ. The Old Covenant is obsolete, now we obey Jesus, not Moses. The church, made up of Jew and Gentile believers IS the Israel of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God did make a New Covenant. Jesus said, on the night before His crucifixion: "This is the New Covenant in My blood." Yes, it was given originally to Israel, but the Gentiles were welcomed into it later, when God spoke to Peter in a vision in Acts 10.

Peter's vision does not signify Gentiles coming into the Jewish New Covenant God made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no mention in Jeremiah's prophecy of Gentiles being included in the New Covenant God made with Israel. It is wishful thinking.
God is saving Gentiles without a covenant.

We, as Gentile believers have been grafted into the olive tree of God's kingdom, the church whose Head is Christ. The Old Covenant is obsolete, now we obey Jesus, not Moses. The church, made up of Jew and Gentile believers IS the Israel of God.

The Law is spiritual. The Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. It is HE whom God promised Israel He would put in their inward parts. Now, for Israel today and future they receive the Holy Spirit of Promise as did 3000 Jews at the Feast of Harvests in Acts 2. Instead of God leading and guiding Israel with the Law in stone God leads and guides His people in the New Covenant from within.
The first century Church was populated by Jews. 3000 to start. And the Jewish believers treated this new thing God was doing in the earth as a completion of the Jewish covenants God gave to Israel and for several decades until the destruction of the Temple by Romans it was a Jewish Covenant and they treated it as such. It took time for the things that Paul wrote about the covenants and promises and everything he wrote about to be sorted out. After the Temple was destroyed the Times of the Gentiles began. One scholar dates its beginning in A.D. 68, before its destruction. Still, while the Temple stood the "ism" of Judaism remained.
Christianity is Completed Judaism.
But God made no covenant with Gentiles.

 

[Soyeong]

The first thing to realize that should help your understanding is that Gentiles were never under the Law. There is no requirement for them to obey the Law.

God is sovereign, so Gentiles have always been under His law. Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so if Gentiles were never under it, then Gentiles have never been required to refrain from sin, have never needed salvation from sin, have never needed the Gospel message, have never needed grace, and have never needed Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but rather Gentiles as not permitted to do what God's law reveals to be sin (Romans 6:15), so Gentiles are still under it.

Second, the Law of God is type and shadow of the Person of the Holy Spirit. It is HE that God promised to put in our inward parts but when I say "we" I mean as part of the covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic) God made with Abraham and the children of Israel His Law, that is, the Holy Spirit is the fulfillment of putting His Law in [their] inward parts. This is the New Covenant God made with the house of Israel of twelve tribes.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of God's nature, which are fruits of the Spirit, and which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Since God made no covenant with Gentiles, God is merely saving Gentiles and bringing them "in" without covenant. You cannot miss to whom God made this New Covenant which is the house of Israel (Jer. 31.)
But the fact remains, Gentiles in this era called the Times of the Gentiles, Gentiles are becoming saved.
So how does this work so that we may understand?

In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude who went up out of Egypt with the Israelites, so there were Gentiles as the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Gentiles are welcome to become part of Israel and partakers of the covenants of promise through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:19) and it is only through this faith in Christ that Gentiles have salvation. It is contradictory for a Gentile to think that they are not under God's law while also thinking that they need salvation from transgressing it.

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom. 9:4–5.

So, if God made no covenant with Gentiles and Gentiles are becoming saved, from where do they get the command to "not have other gods before [me]" from? It is from within when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them. It is through His Presence that He brings the "Law" to us and addresses our consciences.

It comes from the Gospel being preached to Gentiles that calls for repentance and obedience to God's law in accordance with the promise. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God.

 

[Soyeong]

God did make a New Covenant. Jesus said, on the night before His crucifixion: "This is the New Covenant in My blood." Yes, it was given originally to Israel, but the Gentiles were welcomed into it later, when God spoke to Peter in a vision in Acts 10. We, as Gentile believers have been grafted into the olive tree of God's kingdom, the church whose Head is Christ. The Old Covenant is obsolete, now we obey Jesus, not Moses. The church, made up of Jew and Gentile believers IS the Israel of God.

The New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so it is only through becoming part of Israel through faith n Christ that Gentiles are able to become partakes of the New Covenant (Ephesians 2:19). The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our disobedience to it (Acts 3:25-26), so there is no disagreement. The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so following his example is not something different than or contrary to following God's word.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God is sovereign, so Gentiles have always been under His law. Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so if Gentiles were never under it, then Gentiles have never been required to refrain from sin, have never needed salvation from sin, have never needed the Gospel message, have never needed grace, and have never needed Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but rather Gentiles as not permitted to do what God's law reveals to be sin (Romans 6:15), so Gentiles are still under it.

The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are made with the people/house of Hebrew and Jews.
To merely insert the word Gentile in the Jewish Covenants is bad theology and historically did not happen.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23), which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about those aspects of God's nature, which are fruits of the Spirit, and which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

OK. Let's do it your way.
God promise the House of Israel to put His Law in their inward parts.
What Law is God referring to put in the inwards parts of the people and hose of Israel in covenant with God?

In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude who went up out of Egypt with the Israelites, so there were Gentiles as the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Gentiles are welcome to become part of Israel and partakers of the covenants of promise through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:19) and it is only through this faith in Christ that Gentiles have salvation. It is contradictory for a Gentile to think that they are not under God's law while also thinking that they need salvation from transgressing it.

37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. Ex 12:37–38.

There is no mention of Gentiles. But there is mention of a mixed multitude of men and children. It can also be said the mixed multitude are "flocks, herds, and much cattle" but no Gentile cattle.

It is biblically sound to say Gentiles are not under God's Laws given to the children of Israel in the desert when the reality is that Gentiles were never under the Law in the book of the covenant held by Israel. It is, after all, a Jewish Covenant not a Gentile covenant.

It comes from the Gospel being preached to Gentiles that calls for repentance and obedience to God's law in accordance with the promise. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God.

The Scriptures are Jewish Scriptures written by Jewish Christians to and for other Jewish Christians.
God made no covenant with Gentiles and to merely say Gentiles are part of God's covenants with Israel is bad theology without Scriptural PROOF.

 

[Soyeong]

The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant are made with the people/house of Hebrew and Jews.
To merely insert the word Gentile in the Jewish Covenants is bad theology and historically did not happen.

That doesn't address what I said. Gentiles have always been able to join those covenants through faith in the God of Israel especially because their purpose is to be a light to the Gentiles.

OK. Let's do it your way.
God promise the House of Israel to put His Law in their inward parts.
What Law is God referring to put in the inwards parts of the people and hose of Israel in covenant with God?

Jeremiah 31:33 uses the Hebrew word "Torah", which is also known as the Law of Moses.

37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. 38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. Ex 12:37–38.

There is no mention of Gentiles. But there is mention of a mixed multitude of men and children. It can also be said the mixed multitude are "flocks, herds, and much cattle" but no Gentile cattle.

The Hebrew word used can include people, though I'l grant that that is not necessarily the case, however it is in context of Exodus 12:43-49, which does address foreigners, so it is nevertheless still the case that there were foreign at Sinai. Likewise, Joshua 8:33 states that Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born.

It is biblically sound to say Gentiles are not under God's Laws given to the children of Israel in the desert when the reality is that Gentiles were never under the Law in the book of the covenant held by Israel. It is, after all, a Jewish Covenant not a Gentile covenant.

The Scriptures are Jewish Scriptures written by Jewish Christians to and for other Jewish Christians.
God made no covenant with Gentiles and to merely say Gentiles are part of God's covenants with Israel is bad theology without Scriptural PROOF.

That is biblically unsound. God would have no basis to judge the world for their sin if the world was not under His law. We would still be obligated to obey God even before He made any covenants with man, so God's covenants are not the source of our obligation to obey God, but rather the source of our obligation is God's sovereignty, while His covenants simply inform us of what has always been and will always be our obligation. Again, Gentiles would have no need to refrain from sin if Gentiles were not under God's law, but it is clear that Gentiles are obligated to refrain from sin, such as in Romans 6:15.

 

[Wrangler]

Did Jesus Break the Mosaic Law ?

Yes. He replaced it with the New Covenant.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes. He replaced it with the New Covenant.

It is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so to suggest that he broke it is to suggest that he sinned and to deny that he is our Savior. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of negating anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[Wrangler]

so to suggest that he broke it is to suggest that he sinned and to deny that he is our Savior.

1st, A sinner can still save me.

2nd, Jesus did break the Mosaic Law - in more ways than one.

Jesus working on the Sabbath is a clear example. There was a man who was put to death - at God's command - for merely collecting firewood to stay warm on the Sabbath. To say Jesus did not violate that is to be somewhat less than honest.

 

[Soyeong]

1st, A sinner can still save me.

2nd, Jesus did break the Mosaic Law - in more ways than one.

Jesus working on the Sabbath is a clear example. There was a man who was put to death - at God's command - for merely collecting firewood to stay warm on the Sabbath. To say Jesus did not violate that is to be somewhat less honest.

Jesus could not have paid the penalty for our sins if he was another sinner, but rather the Bible is explicitly clear that Jesus had no sin, which means among other things that he did not break the Sabbath. It is contradictory to think that Jesus was correct to say that it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath while also thinking that the Pharisees were correct about Jesus breaking the Sabbath by healing on it. It has always been lawful to heal on the Sabbath, so the Pharisees who thought he had broken it were incorrect, along with you.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus could not have paid the penalty for our sins if he was another sinner

What verse says that?

 

[jeremiah1five]

That doesn't address what I said. Gentiles have always been able to join those covenants through faith in the God of Israel especially because their purpose is to be a light to the Gentiles.

You miss the part where there was always a middle wall partition separating Israel from Gentiles called THE LAW OF MOSES.
Israel and Gentiles never got along. There was always a division between the races. Gentiles had thousands of gods and Israel had the One True God, so wherever you're getting your information is boo boo.
Israel is to be a light to the Gentiles when Christ returns, not before. I see hoards and hoards of Gentiles lining up at their Gentile embassies trying to go to Israel to be Jews. What a joke.
There's nothing like that happening and there is nothing like that ever happening in the past.

Jeremiah 31:33 uses the Hebrew word "Torah", which is also known as the Law of Moses.
The Hebrew word used can include people, though I'l grant that that is not necessarily the case, however it is in context of Exodus 12:43-49, which does address foreigners, so it is nevertheless still the case that there were foreign at Sinai. Likewise, Joshua 8:33 states that Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born.

The sign of the covenant is circumcision. Gentiles do not join Israel's religion because they are not welcome. And Gentiles hate Israel. So, get your doctrine right because it's all messed up.

That is biblically unsound. God would have no basis to judge the world for their sin if the world was not under His law. We would still be obligated to obey God even before He made any covenants with man, so God's covenants are not the source of our obligation to obey God, but rather the source of our obligation is God's sovereignty, while His covenants simply inform us of what has always been and will always be our obligation. Again, Gentiles would have no need to refrain from sin if Gentiles were not under God's law, but it is clear that Gentiles are obligated to refrain from sin, such as in Romans 6:15.

You know, just for the heck of it I did a Bing search under these terms:
"Are Gentiles under the Law of Moses?"
Guess what came back?
In large letters the word "NO."

LOL.

Do you understand what Paul says here:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom. 2:12–14.

Paul is saying Gentiles do not live under the Law and he is right.
You do well to pay heed to the Word of God rather than lean on your own understanding in the vanity of your mind.
Gentiles are not under the Law then and are not under the Law now. So, you, being Gentile, are not under the Law right as you read this and if you sin without the Law you shall perish without the Law.
Key word: PERISH!
Rots of ruck to you.

 

[Olde Tymer]

~
The laws of God, in particular His codified laws, are not retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4,
Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:17)

That fact comes in very handy when curious folks ask me to explain how Jesus'
human sacrifice was legal seeing as he-- born a Jew --was limited to the
atonements specified in the covenant that Moses' people entered into with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, to wit:

● Deut 4:2 …You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything
away from it, but keep the commandments of The Lord your God that I enjoin upon
you.

● Deut 5:29-30 …Be careful, then, to do as The Lord your God has commanded
you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that The Lord
your God has enjoined upon you.

Well, the secret is: Jesus was designated and scheduled for the cross prior to not
only institution of the covenant, but also prior to creation of the heavens and the
earth. (Mic 5:2, 1Pet 1:20 & Rev 13:8) In other words: Jesus' crucifixion was set in
stone, so to speak, even before Adam took his first bite of the forbidden fruit.
_

 

[jeremiah1five]

~
The laws of God, in particular His codified laws, are not retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4,
Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:17)

That fact comes in very handy when curious folks ask me to explain how Jesus'
human sacrifice was legal seeing as he-- born a Jew --was limited to the
atonements specified in the covenant that Moses' people entered into with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, to wit:

● Deut 4:2 …You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything
away from it, but keep the commandments of The Lord your God that I enjoin upon
you.

● Deut 5:29-30 …Be careful, then, to do as The Lord your God has commanded
you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the path that The Lord
your God has enjoined upon you.

Well, the secret is: Jesus was designated and scheduled for the cross prior to not
only institution of the covenant, but also prior to creation of the heavens and the
earth. (Mic 5:2, 1Pet 1:20 & Rev 13:8) In other words: Jesus' crucifixion was set in
stone, so to speak, even before Adam took his first bite of the forbidden fruit.
_

You say the Torah is not retroactive?
God's Law is perpetual throughout all generations of the Hebrew people:

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Dt 5:1-3.

 

[Cyrus]

One things for sure... that he was without sin otherwise he could not be our savior.

So Jesus was tempted, but He the Bible also affirms that Jesus was completely sinless throughout His life on earth. The Apostle Paul wrote that God “made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” The author of Hebrews described Jesus as “kind of high priest we need: holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.” And Peter said that Jesus “did not commit sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

Jesus He is our sinless Savior, who died in our place, and through His death frees everyone who trusts in Him from bondage to sin forever.

 

[Rowan]

Jesu came to fulfill the law. Jewish leaders had developed a large body of oral laws. Many of these rules added extra requirements to something God commanded in the Torah. When it comes to the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders developed 39 categories of actions that were classified as work.

Jesus said concerning the Pharisees: “They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Matthew 23:4