Determinism in Calvinism and the Reformed Confessions

Nope. It was Pelagius the heretic. Your pal.
The Apple doesn't fall far from the Tree !

THERE IS NO QUESTION that Calvin imposed upon the Bible certain erroneous interpretations from his Roman Catholic background. Many leading Calvinists agree that the writings of Augustine were the actual source of most of what is known as Calvinism today. Calvinists David Steele and Curtis Thomas point out that “The basic doctrines of the Calvinistic position had been vigorously defended by Augustine against Pelagius during the fifth century.”1

In his eye-opening book, The Other Side of Calvinism, Laurence M. Vance thoroughly documents that “John Calvin did not originate the doctrines that bear his name....”2 Vance quotes numerous well-known Calvinists to this effect. For example, Kenneth G. Talbot and W. Gary Crampton write, “The system of doctrine which bears the name of John Calvin was in no way originated by him....”3 B. B. Warfield declared, “The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformers.”4 Thus the debt that the creeds coming out of the Reformation owe to Augustine is also acknowledged. This is not surprising in view of the fact that most of the Reformers had been part of the Roman Catholic Church, of which Augustine was one of the most highly regarded “saints.” John Piper acknowledges that Augustine was the major influence upon both Calvin and Luther, who continued to revere him and his doctrines even after they broke away from Roman Catholicism.5

C. H. Spurgeon admitted that “perhaps Calvin himself derived it [Calvinism] mainly from the writings of Augustine.”6 Alvin L. Baker wrote, “There is hardly a doctrine of Calvin that does not bear the marks of Augustine’s influence.”7 For example, the following from Augustine sounds like an echo reverberating through the writings of Calvin:

Even as he has appointed them to be regenerated...whom he predestinated to everlasting life, as the most merciful bestower of grace, whilst to those whom he has predestinated to eternal death, he is also the most righteous awarder of punishment.8

C. Gregg Singer said, “The main features of Calvin’s theology are found in the writings of St. Augustine to such an extent that many theologians regard Calvinism as a more fully developed form of Augustinianism.”9 Such statements are staggering declarations in view of the undisputed fact that, as Vance points out, the Roman Catholic Church itself has a better claim on Augustine than do the Calvinists.10 Calvin himself said:

Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings.11

Augustine and the Use of Force

The fourth century Donatists believed that the church should be a pure communion of true believers who demonstrated the truth of the gospel in their lives. They abhorred the apostasy that had come into the church when Constantine wedded Christianity to paganism in order to unify the empire. Compromising clergy were “evil priests working hand in glove with the kings of the earth, who show that they have no king but Caesar.” To the Donatists, the church was a “small body of saved surrounded by the unregenerate mass.”12 This is, of course, the biblical view.

Augustine, on the other hand, saw the church of his day as a mixture of believers and unbelievers, in which purity and evil should be allowed to exist side by side for the sake of unity. He used the power of the state to compel church attendance (as Calvin also would 1,200 years later): “Whoever was not found within the Church was not asked the reason, but was to be corrected and converted....”13 Calvin followed his mentor Augustine in enforcing church attendance and participation in the sacraments by threats (and worse) against the citizens of Geneva. Augustine “identified the Donatists as heretics...who could be subjected to imperial legislation [and force] in exactly the same way as other criminals and misbelievers, including poisoners and pagans.”14 Frend says of Augustine, “The questing, sensitive youth had become the father of the inquisition.”15

Though he preferred persuasion if possible, Augustine supported military force against those who were rebaptized as believers after conversion to Christ and for other alleged heretics. In his controversy with the Donatists, using a distorted and un-Christian interpretation of Luke:14:23
,16 Augustine declared:

Why therefore should not the Church use force in compelling her lost sons to return?... The Lord Himself said, “Go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in....” Wherefore is the power which the Church has received...through the religious character and faith of kings...the instrument by which those who are found in the highways and hedges—that is, in heresies and schisms—are compelled to come in, and let them not find fault with being compelled.17

Sadly, Calvin put into effect in Geneva the very principles of punishment, coercion, and death that Augustine advocated and that the Roman Catholic Church followed consistently for centuries. Henry H. Milman writes: “Augustinianism was worked up into a still more rigid and uncompromising system by the severe intellect of Calvin.”18 And he justified himself by Augustine’s erroneous interpretation of Luke:14:23

. How could any who today hail Calvin as a great exegete accept such abuse of this passage?

Compel? Isn’t that God’s job through Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace? Compel those for whom Christ didn’t die and whom God has predestined to eternal torment? This verse refutes Calvinism no matter how it is intepreted!hunt

hope this helps !!!
 
how you pal augustine the gnostic corrupted the church with his numerous false teachings.

Below is a history lesson about your beliefs. :)

Which the Reformation bought into with their doctrines. Both Luther and Calvin were heavily influenced by Augustine

The errors of the Gnostics were continually rejected by the Early Church, but the Gnostics continued to try to penetrate the Church with their views. The Gnostics even wrote their own gospels, known as the Gnostic Gospels today, where they stole credible names like Mary and Thomas to try to give validity to their teachings.

While many of the attempts of the Gnostics to infiltrate the Church failed, and many of their views are widely rejected today, it seems that their particular view of human nature, free will, and the nature of sin has found wide acceptance in the Church today.

On Free will

Regarding the term “free will,” John Calvin admitted “As to the Fathers, (if their authority weighs with us,) they have the term constantly in their mouths…”[31] He said, “The Greek fathers above others” have taught “the power of the human will”[32] and “they have not been ashamed to make use of a much more arrogant expression calling man ‘free agent or self-manager,’ just as if man had a power to govern himself…”[33] He also said, “The Latin fathers have always retained the word ‘free will’ as if man stood yet upright.”[34] It is a fact that cannot be denied even by those who most ardently oppose the doctrine of free will, that the doctrine of free will and not that of inability was held by all of the Early Church.

Walter Arthur Copinger said, “All the Fathers are unanimous on the freedom of the human will…”[35] Lyman Beecher said, “the free will and natural ability of man were held by the whole church…”[36] And Dr Wiggers said, “All the fathers…agreed with the Pelagians, in attributing freedom of will to man in his present state.”[37] This is a very important point because whenever a person today holds to the belief that all men have the natural ability to obey God or not to obey Him, or that man’s nature still retains the faculty of free will and can choose between these two alternatives and possibilities, he is almost immediately accused of being a heretical “Pelagian” by the Calvinists. This accusation is being unfair to the position of free will since all of the Early Church Fathers held to free will long before Pelagius even existed.

On Original sin

Harry Conn said, “Augustine, after studying the philosophy of Manes, the Persian philosopher, brought into the church from Manichaeism the doctrine of original sin.”[51]

The corruption of our nature, or the loss of our free will, Augustine credited to the original sin of Adam. Augustine said that the “free choice of the will was present in that man who was the first to be formed… But after he sinned by that free will, we who have descended from his progeny have been plunged into necessity.”[52] “By Adam’s transgression, the freedom of’ the human will has been completely lost.”[53] “By the greatness of the first sin, we have lost the freewill to love God.” And finally he said, “by subverting the rectitude in which he was created, he is followed with the punishment of not being able to do right” and “the freedom to abstain from sin has been lost as a punishment of sin.”[54]

Consider the following facts:

All of the Early Christians, before Augustine, believed in man’s free will and denied man’s natural inability.
The Gnostics in the days of the Early Church believed in man’s natural inability and denied man’s free will.
Augustine was a Gnostic for many years, in the Manichaeism sect, and converted to the Church out of Gnosticism.
After joining the Church and being appointed a Bishop, Augustine began to deny the free will of man and to affirm the natural inability of man
The Church, under Augustine’s influence, began to believe in the natural inability of man, which it never before held to, but which it formerly would refute.

The reason that John Calvin rejected all ancient theologians and dismissed all of their writings on this matter, except for Augustine, is because all ancient theologians affirmed the freedom of the will in their writings, except for Augustine. Gregory Boyd said, “This in part explains why Calvin cannot cite ante-Nicene fathers against his libertarian opponents…. Hence, when Calvin debates Pighuis on the freedom of the will, he cites Augustine abundantly, but no early church fathers are cited.”[80] That is why George Pretyman said, “…the peculiar tenets of Calvinism are in direct opposition to the Doctrines maintained in the primitive Church of Christ…” This we have clearly seen, but he also said, “…there is a great similarity between the Calvinistic system and the earliest [Gnostic] heresies…”[81]

The Reformers sought to return the Church to early Christianity, but actually brought it back to early heresies, because it stopped short at Augustine. The Reformers did not go far back enough. Rather than returning the Church to early Christianity, the Reformation resurrected Augustinian and Gnostic doctrines. The Methodist Quarterly Review said, “At the Reformation Augustinianism received an emphatic re-enforcement among the Protestant Churches.”[82] The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics said, “…it is Augustine who gave us the Reformation. For the Reformation, inwardly considered, was just the ultimate triumph of Augustine’s doctrine… the Reformation came, seeing that it was, on its theological side, a revival of Augustinianism…”[83] The Reformation was to a great extent a resurrection or revival of Augustinian theology and a further departure and falling away from Early Christianity.

Gnosticism, Augustinianism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism have much in common. Augustinianism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism teach Gnostic views of human nature and free will but under a different name. It’s the same old Gnosticism in a new wrapper. Other doctrines also seem to have originated in Gnosticism, from Basilianism, Valentianism, Marcionism, and Manichaeism, such as the doctrines of easy believism, individual predestination, constitutional regeneration, a sinful nature or a sinful flesh, eternal security or once saved always saved, and others. But no Gnostic doctrine has spread so widely throughout the Church, with such great acceptance as the doctrine of man’s natural inability to obey God. https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/augustine-gnostic-heretic-and-corruptor-of-the-church/
This is simply opinion. Augustine was never declared a heretic. Your pal Pelagius however was at more than one church council. Your in good company. I would say Charles Finney would also be a hero of yours. Two peas from the same pod.
 
This is simply opinion. Augustine was never declared a heretic. Your pal Pelagius however was at more than one church council. Your in good company. I would say Charles Finney would also be a hero of yours. Two peas from the same pod.
augustine and calvin never preached the gospel the others did- that all one needs to know. :)
 
Just so you know when I was a Calvinist I always considered non Calvinists my brothers in Christ and the A/C debate was an on house debate. Now as a non Calvinist still consider Calvinists as my brothers in Christ. :)
I do as well. It is a in house debate. We are all here because we care.
 
So he never said works means determinism. Yet you feel comfortable misrepresenting his position. Tells you all you need to know folks.
Give it up

His argument would have been senseless if it was not addressing Civic statement about determinism
 
Not only does Provisionism make God the author of division and confusion but it also promotes a contradictory and illogical God.

By the way. Would declaring war on your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ cause division and confusion? Asking for a friend.
You fail to prove that claim; just as you fail to defend your theology from the fact it obviously makes God the author of confusion, division , and all moral evil because he determined it all in your theology

Such a belief does not exist in Provisionism or Arminianism
 
You fail to prove that claim; just as you fail to defend your theology from the fact it obviously makes God the author of confusion, division , and all moral evil because he determined it all in your theology

Such a belief does not exist in Provisionism or Arminianism
I will use your pals own words. We are at war with Calvinism. Would that cause division in your opinion? LOL
 
no thats a dictator, the puppeteer, the one who controls the robots every action, thought and deed. :)
... Like saving a drowning man that has fallen into unconsciousness without his express permission.

[Except we are not "unconscious", we are:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. - Ephesians 2:1-3​
and we are not merely withholding our permission, we are actively opposing God's work:
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." - John 3:19-20​
For the choir director. [A Psalm] of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one." - Psalm 14:1-3​
... so this 'Dictator' - in his SOVEREIGN right as Creator - loves too greatly to honor our dead, sinful hearts and saves some ("whosoever believes", "everyone who learns from the Father", "My sheep" whom "the Father that sent me draws") and gives the gift of "a new heart" to raise people "dead in sin" back to life.
 
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J I Packer omits one fact . According to his theology the reason men sin is because God determined it that way.

One cannot argue God determines all things and in the next breath deny God is the cause of all sin
Some can and do, some do not.

God has not clearly answered why ADAM and EVE sinned.
At the end of Genesis 1 we have "very good".
In Genesis 2 we get a serpent.
By genesis 3 we have sin and a curse on all mankind.

God does not explain "the problem of Evil" in those three chapters to have a definitive answer ... so honest Christians disagree.

[Free Will does not really answer the problem, either ... where was God and His angel with a Flaming Sword BEFORE Eve was deceived? Is God responsible for the FALL? ... The classic "Problem of Evil".]
 
yes that god caused the evil and sinful acts to happen by determining everything that comes to pass including the rape, murder of women , children and infants.

white, Mac, piper, rc and many others admit this is the case.
What about JOB and JOSEPH ... what part did God play in the evil that befell them?
  • None?
  • Some?
  • God was in complete control?
  • God caused it to advance God's Plan?
 
Works out could simply indicate God words to bring good from evil rather than God determining the evil

Again works does not mean he determined all things
You have explained what it DOES NOT mean, but not what it DOES mean.

Once again:
What does "God works all things in accordance with the plan of His will" mean if God is not in control of what happens?
The OP is attempting to refute the argument that God is in control of "these things" ... and then lists things that are not "God's fault".

OK ... so YOU and HE are actually are denying "God works ALL THINGS" of 1 Corinthians12:6 and Ephesians 1:11-12.

So what then, do these scriptures mean when they claim God "works all things in accordance with the plan of His will"?

Explain to me why "the world" means "all men without exception", but "all things" really means "only a very few things ... after God asks our permission".
 
how you pal augustine the gnostic corrupted the church with his numerous false teachings.
REVISIONIST HISTORY ALERT!

Gnosticism:

Three periods can be discerned in the development of Gnosticism:
  • [AD 50 - 150] Late-first century and early second century: development of Gnostic ideas, contemporaneous with the writing of the New Testament;
  • [AD 150 - 250] mid-second century to early third century: high point of the classical Gnostic teachers and their systems, "who claimed that their systems represented the inner truth revealed by Jesus";
  • [AD 250 - 400] end of the second century to the fourth century: reaction by the proto-orthodox church and condemnation as heresy, and subsequent decline.
Augustine of Hippo (aka. Saint Augustine)
  • Born 13 November 354
  • Converted to Christianity August 386
  • appointed Bishop of Hippo in 395
  • Died 28 August 430
Gnosticism was already on its death bed when Augustine was BORN ... Augustine was not a Gnostic.
 
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