Defining the authority of the "church"....

civic said:
I remember back in the old days on carm dealing with milton the uni who thought he was so smart. I would tell him I can defend the Plurality of God from the Bible and do not need any outside source other than the Scripture. He would get ticked off then I would correct him on orthodoxy in church history. Either way I would get him on stating I can defend God as a biblical Trinitarian or as an orthodox Trinitarian. I would beat him at his own game and adventually he would get mad and get banned. Back then they had a couple astute uni's in robr and elpis.
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God is HIS SPIRIT HE IS HIS WORD .
I have a real simple question for us all . Even to those of us who know the Godhead .
How come even those who can understand the Godhead
sure seem to still treat the words of JESUS as though somehow they are not of GOD .
meaning i sure seem to see a lot of folks who sure seem to love what men say and teach about GOD , CHRIST
and yet their teachings contradict the very teachings of GOD . I mean IF JESUS said it , DIDNT GOD SAY IT .
and yet even those who know that truth sure seems to be treating men and their doctrines as though its the Word of GOD
and JESUS and some of HIS BIBLICAL DOCTRINE as though HE was WRONG and they men are RIGHT and we need us some greek
or hebrew learning and etc . You do realize i dont heed a word one that cometh outta the lips
of a man who says OH YE CANNOT just learn the bible if you read it for yourself . cause friend , THEY LIE .
That is more a means of power and control , IF YA KNOW what i mean .
 
civic said:
If water baptism was salvific Paul world never say he was glad he did not baptize people yet we know he brought hundreds , thousands of people to salvific faith in the gospel of Christ.
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But always remember IF JESUS said to do , WE DO . a sign of a heart that loveth HIM and has been changed BY HIM .
SO while i know many go into the chambers of men to be water baptized , many still come up a wet sinner
that has been programmed by the doctrines of men . many DO THAT .
But still if we LOVE HIM we would be water baptized . just not by men who , TEACH CONTRARY to him .
My water baptism was simply done in a lake by another beleiver .
If we love him WE DO as HE said to do . But i do agree its not the act itself that saved us persay
ITS FAITH IN JESUS that saves and by the Grace o GOD ye have been saved .
But my advice is we beware of many leaders within many houses that go by the name christain these days .
Cause friend , ITS GOTTEN MUCH WORSE since even the days seeker friendly first began . IT LED THEM TO THEIR OWN destruction .
Till now many sit in a church hollering we love thee o God , we love thee o Christ
and yet have no idea what they have lost and that they are lost as they worship on and love on
a god who accepts their SIN . BIG problem .
 
civic said:
If water baptism was salvific Paul world never say he was glad he did not baptize people yet we know he brought hundreds , thousands of people to salvific faith in the gospel of Christ.
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To the trenches civic . These be the last days on earth and this generation has went the way
it was foretold they would go nigh the end . Stay dug in the BIBLE my friend and let no man
move thee from the TRUTH . Its about to peak my friend . words against us will become laws against us .
 
civic said:
All truth is contained in Scripture which is inspired and its all we need to defend the True God who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All doctrine is contained within the N.T. for the church today. Its only the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles that are authoritative with the exception of Mark and Luke who were under Peter and Paul.
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the gospel mark wrote
the gospel that luke wrote
They are TRUTH indeed my friend . In fact not a word one of theirs contradicts a word one
in other two gospels either .
And genealogies are not an issue either .
You wanna know what i find so odd these days . of course i aint saying YOU do it , but rather that many
seem to do this ,
Have you noticed they try and pit the GOD and scriptures in the OLD testament
as somehow being contrary to the JESUS of the new testament .
YET i challenge all to really examine even the jesus they offer up , Cause their version of him
CONTRADICTS the new testament version of HIM too .
I SEE the SAME GOD from page ONE to page last in that bible . HE DONT CHANGE , HIS TRUTH dont change .
ONLY the covenant changed and even that was written in the old test and propheised by the true prophets
EVEN by MOSES .
In fact if we examine what peter and paul were meaning when they said THE HOLY SCRIPS
THEY MEANT TORAH and the prophets not their own writings . THOUGH we KNOW their writings are GOD INSPIRED .
Men love to pit and to twist things . But the wee little sheep WONT HEED a word one outta they lips .
Many have done a tremenodous evil and blapshemous thing .
They have created an image of GOD , they THINK is GOD and yet their image and version of him
SURE TRODS HIS WORDS , HIS SON , RIGHT UNDER FOOT and holds up rainbows and who knows what else .
AS THOUGH GOD LOVES SIN TODAY . SOMEHOW their god seems to Embrace lies , sins and even UNBELIEF
and sure seems to have a huge problem with manythings written that were INSPIRED BYTHE GOD .
DO ya ever get the feeling that satan can cloake himself as an angel of light and LIE and do so USING the name of JESUS and of GOD
CAUSE I SURE DO . wolves in wool baby they are all over the places .
 
praise_yeshua said:
There are Scriptures that make this impossible to believe.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

It wasn't the baptism in the cloud and sea that saved them. It was that "drink" that saves.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

All of these references are metaphorical/allegorical but they are contradictory if one believes in baptismal regeneration.
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Well, the early fathers believed baptism saved and they believed in the real presence..actually they believed that the bread turned into the body and blood of Jesu.
But let's not derail.
Just to say that indeed, they were conistant.

praise_yeshua said:
I am sympathetic to the concept of infant baptism because of the faith of the parents. It might even "infer" grace to some degree.
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I agree with this and so did the early fathers!
praise_yeshua said:
The answered prayers of the faithful. However, it can never fully redeem. It is a good beginning that is completed in repentance once a person comes to really know about God. Repentance requires knowledge that must be learned. It can not be gifted. It must be learned.
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Agreed.
praise_yeshua said:
Which is part of the necessity of freewill within the image of God within humanity. (I can elaborate on this and I really want to.... but I know many people will reject this). My rant is off here. Just wanted to share this.
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OK
But you shouldn't hesitate to post about free will.
Free will is all over the bible...if someone doesn't agree...
they're wrong NOT THE BIBLE.

Christianity always believed in free will until Calvinism.
praise_yeshua said:
Salvation is a process. For some, it happens very fast. For others, it takes years.
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How does salvation take years?
What happens if a person dies in the meantime?
praise_yeshua said:
Relative to the passing of faith from one generation to the next, it often takes time. The smallest of faith begins the journey. Confession and repentance often come close together but not always. It is why Israel had to face the baptism of John. They came forth from the faithfulness of Abraham but they had lost it. They had the witness of God's promises throughout their lives but they didn't even recognize who was standing right in front of them. Traditions had be replaced with a faith that had to grow beyond their "tradition" to know how they had all failed God... "repentance".
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Agreed.
Jesus said that they had to grow in their traditions here:

Matthew 5:20
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisees had an exterior type of superficial faith...
They did not have faith righteousness with God but only something that men could see
that made them proud.

God wants our heart.
This is more serious and deeper in nature.
Jesus said THIS was the type of righteousness we should have...
it had to be better than that of the Pharisees.
 
civic said:
If water baptism was salvific Paul world never say he was glad he did not baptize people yet we know he brought hundreds , thousands of people to salvific faith in the gospel of Christ.
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Because Paul didn't baptize does not mean that it wasn't necessary.
Others could have done it.
 
praise_yeshua said:
There are Scriptures that make this impossible to believe.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

It wasn't the baptism in the cloud and sea that saved them. It was that "drink" that saves.
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The very point of Paul's message in 1 Cor. 10, was to point out that even though they Drank from that Spiritual Rock, and that Rock was Christ, "many" still fell in the Wilderness. Why?? Because they were hearers only of the Word they drank, not Doers, as the Entire Bible, including the Jesus "of the bible" Himself, instructs men to become.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) let him "that thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

So drinking the Blood and eating the Flesh of Christ, is a requirement for receiving God's Salvation, this is true. But after a man eats and drinks, he should not lust after disobedience, as those who fell in the wilderness lusted. In the same way Israel ate the Passover Lamb, then were to embark on the Feast of Unleavened bread, (Life without sin, as Paul teaches) or as Jesus said, "Now go and sin no more". As it is written:

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
GodsGrace said:
Well, the early fathers believed baptism saved and they believed in the real presence..actually they believed that the bread turned into the body and blood of Jesu.
But let's not derail.
Just to say that indeed, they were conistant.
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Personally, I battle with teaching of the Eucharist in this context. I can see it both way. I battle this from the perspective of what Jesus taught about "drink His blood and eating His flesh". We know our God can do anything.......

It is one of the reasons I've considered joining the local Catholic Church. I don't think I can make it past adult confirmation for several reasons. I might can with the right local priest. I believe I would enjoy taking communion among them.

I just can't get past some things associated with their rituals.

GodsGrace said:
How does salvation take years?
What happens if a person dies in the meantime?.
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That is a great question. I will defer to God in that area.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Our God can do anything. I believe those that seek.... find. I believe God caries them through that process. As faith grows, God just keeps revealing Himself and sustaining us until we get to where we need to be. To that moment where a choice is made in repentance.
 
Studyman said:
So drinking the Blood and eating the Flesh of Christ, is a requirement for receiving God's Salvation, this is true. But after a man eats and drinks, he should not lust after disobedience, as those who fell in the wilderness lusted. In the same way Israel ate the Passover Lamb, then were to embark on the Feast of Unleavened bread, (Life without sin, as Paul teaches) or as Jesus said, "Now go and sin no more". As it is written:

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
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Should and does are two different things.

Have your children always obeyed you? Would you cast them away if they didn't?
 
praise_yeshua said:
It is a ritual that has meaning. Any Israelite will tell you exactly what a "mikvah" means to them. It was essential to their rituals. Anyone that resists baptism...... shouldn't.
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I just think that if Jesus said to do something, then we should do it.
John said he baptized for the forgiveness of sins (repentance) and that one would come after him
that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to baptize in the Great Commission to the Apostles in Matthew 28:19.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Personally, I battle with teaching of the Eucharist in this context. I can see it both way. I battle this from the perspective of what Jesus taught about "drink His blood and eating His flesh". We know our God can do anything.......

It is one of the reasons I've considered joining the local Catholic Church. I don't think I can make it past adult confirmation
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If you make it to confirmation...you're a Catholic!
The correct order is:
BAPTISM
CONFIRMATION
COMMUNION

But for children the order is:
BAPTISM
COMMUNION
CONFIRMATION

Not only did Jesus say to drink and to eat..
if you look at John 6:53, the Greek word for "eat" is "to chew".

praise_yeshua said:
for several reasons. I might can with the right local priest. I believe I would enjoy taking communion among them.
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The local priest has nothing to do with this.
You'd have to join a class called RCIA
RITE OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION FOR ADULTS
It takes from 1 to 2 years, depending on the Parish.
Usually a year.

praise_yeshua said:
I just can't get past some things associated with their rituals.
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What rituals?
The rituals are biblical and very beautiful.
It's some of the doctrine or dogma that I can't get beyond.

praise_yeshua said:
That is a great question. I will defer to God in that area.
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I don't think you'll have to defer to God...the answer is in the NT.
I think what you mean is that our BEHAVIOR could change overnight or it could take years.
This is correct.
The NT teaches that we are saved/justified immediately.
The jailer asked how he could be saved and Paul replied:
BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Ephesians tells us that we are saved BY GRACE through FAITH.
So if we have faith, we are saved.

Our behavior is what might take some time.
This is why we're told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
(because the spirit and the flesh are opposed to each other).
praise_yeshua said:
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
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Regarding judging....
We can judge a persons ACTIONS or Matthew 18:15 would make no sense.
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

It is a persons soul that we cannot judge...
only God can know that.

However, we are able to know somewhat, although judgment cannot be passed.
praise_yeshua said:
Our God can do anything. I believe those that seek.... find. I believe God caries them through that process. As faith grows, God just keeps revealing Himself and sustaining us until we get to where we need to be. To that moment where a choice is made in repentance.
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A priest I know once told me:
If someone is seeking for God...
he has already found Him.
I do believe this is true.
HE WHO SEEKS, FINDS.
 

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